If you assume that every seller on ebay with horrible photos and a 10% surcharge for returns is trying to steal your money, you will miss some opportunities to get burned.
<< <i>OK, Red Tiger, I'll bite. Whether or not "you know your coins," the seller has an obligation to describe the coin honestly. Yes? or No? >>
In the real world, the harsh answer is no. There are a thousand sellers like the one you bought from, passing off overgraded, or other wise tampered with coins. Some of them sell on Ebay, some of them are at coin shows, some of them run ads in the coin magazines, some of them sell at live auctions. Spend $200 with each of them, if you like, it won't change anything. There is a lot of subjectivity in the hobby, and there are many folks more than willing to say something to take your money.
The seller had a photo, from which most people that have looked at more than five proof Liberty nickels in hand would never have bid on. The seller had a return privilege, albeit a limited one. The seller used some puffery, but that is average for a raw coin seller on Ebay, deal with it. Thank goodness for you it is only a $200 lesson and the coin is actually a proof with some numismatic value.
The harsh reality is that there are a lot of ways to make stupid purchases, and you choose one of them. Instead of taking responsibility, you are looking to pin the tail on the seller. Maybe next you'll move up one level of scammer to no-name slabbed coins that are in MS65 holders and then wonder why no dealer will offer more than AU money for them. Maybe after that you will hook up with some "investment" firm selling "special" coins for 3x retail price and think you are getting some great hidden bargain. I'm sorry, but I have zero sympathy.
Short message to all newbies: Please take the time to learn how to grade. Until you learn that much, avoid buying expensive raw coins, especially those with lousy photos. For the average new collector a year of more is required. Start slow, collect what you like, keep early mistakes small, most everyone makes mistakes when they are new.
Thank goodness for you it is only a $200 lesson and the coin is actually a proof with some numismatic value.
Amen and Amen again!! Have you looked at the cost of tuition at NotreDame lately? Hell of a deal for a $200 education. Talk to the seller , a partial refund may be worked out. Good luck !
“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly."
I'm of two minds about all of this; I've been "burned" by an ebay purchase. I did ring the alarm bell as soon as that coin arrived and managed to resolve things amicably with the seller. Really, the buyer should have done that.
At the same time, I'm coming to the realization that much of the "oh, it's obvious to me the coin is a problem, tsk tsk learn how to grade sonny" is Monday Morning Quarterbacking. TPGs can't even decide consistently on grade or even if a coin is AT, NT, or cleaned; why should we be surprised when someone else can't either.
Maybe next you'll move up one level of scammer to no-name slabbed coins that are in MS65 holders and then wonder why no dealer will offer more than AU money for them. Maybe after that you will hook up with some "investment" firm selling "special" coins for 3x retail price and think you are getting some great hidden bargain.
Red Tiger - Thank you oh-so-much for your help. If I ever do decide to take advice from you, it will only be after:
1) you learn to avoid insulting someone's intelligence when they've made a mistake,
2) learn that sleaseballs don't deserve yet another free pass in life, and
3) show signs (any glimmer of recognition will do) that you don't have to drag someone else down in order to elevate your own stature.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I am the one who sold this coin. He bought the coin which I bought at a local coin auction as a proof. It looked good to me and I listed it as I had bought it. I have a return policy. He got the coin and left positive feedback stating he was happy with the coin. One month later he all of a sudden wants a full refund. How do I know it is even the same coin I sold to him? It was a raw coin. How do I know what if anything was done to the coin after leaving my hands? Show me one dealer who would sell a raw coin then after one month give a full refund to the buyer. It is unreasonable to expect them too.
<< <i>I am the one who sold this coin. He bought the coin which I bought at a local coin auction as a proof. It looked good to me and I listed it as I had bought it. I have a return policy. He got the coin and left positive feedback stating he was happy with the coin. One month later he all of a sudden wants a full refund. How do I know it is even the same coin I sold to him? It was a raw coin. How do I know what if anything was done to the coin after leaving my hands? Show me one dealer who would sell a raw coin then after one month give a full refund to the buyer. It is unreasonable to expect them too. >>
Welcome to the PCGS U.S. Coin Furm. The remarks you make are reasonable in terms of normal commercial behavior. I know of some board members that behave the same way: "after the grace period for returning the coin is over no more refunds". Technically speaking you are 100% in the right.
Ethically speaking, had I been in your position, I would ahve accepted the return after 6 months. By holding to your formally correct postion, you leave the door open for doubts about your rectitude. My business ethic would not allow me to do that.
The road to make that coin sellable is to send it to ANACS and have it slabbed as "whizzed" if that is what it is.
By claiming (in good faith I am sure) that this coin is "problem free" you allow your commecial sense of ethics to be questioned.
jmski52 has recognized that he should have acted sooner and just about every body and their cousins have jumped at the opportunity to criticize his tardiness. The fact remains that the coin shown in your pictures quite obviously "doctored". I tink one's reputation is worth ore than $200.
cho10
Collecting since the 1980's Morgan Dollars Circ. Strikes - Basic Set - Varieties - Prooflike Basic Set - Date Set - Carson City - Early S Mint Short Set - Mintmark Type Set Morgan Dollars Proof - Basic Set - Varieties Peace Circ.
<< <i>The guy's name on ebay is ron60coins. He sold me an 1890 Liberty Nickel on ebay that looked good in the pic. When I got it, I noticed some faint hairlines, but I thought I'd get another opinion. Yesterday, at the Coin Show in St. Louis, I got a unanimous opinion from all the dealers I showed it to, that the coin was an AU or BU, "processed" or "whizzed" to appear Proof.
If he represented it on ebay as Proof and it's not, can I force him to take it back? Can I get him booted off ebay if I document the situation?
Does anyone know if this is enough of a criminal act to get the Post Office involved? >>
Hey I have an idea, why not buy a plane ticket and fly to where he is... walk up to him and shoot him in the face... then when he hits the ground, double tap him.
Then... ask him if he knew it was whizzed.
That sounds reasonable to me, Ray >>
I didn't read all of this thread, but this post is funny as hell
I think that's a little harsh. I'd go with a 50/50 split. The seller sold a POS described as problem-free, and the buyer jumped in to the water when he doesn't know how to swim.
Show me one dealer who would sell a raw coin then after one month give a full refund to the buyer.
Actually, there are plenty. Dennis Tarrant, James Garcia, John Marburger, and Jon Rosenthal (RCNH), to name some off the top of my head. None of these guys would sell the aforementioned coin, however, and certainly not without a high quality photo, a generous return privilige, and an accurate description of the coin's problems. I would not expect you or your ilk to be in the same league as these gentlemen.
Oh man, just get together and end this thread! I'm no dealer but I've given refunds when someone sends the coin to a Third and it get BB'd or such. Hey, work it out. You both blew that one! Good luck, bob
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
<< <i>Show me one dealer who would sell a raw coin then after one month give a full refund to the buyer.
Actually, there are plenty. Dennis Tarrant, James Garcia, John Marburger, and Jon Rosenthal (RCNH), to name some off the top of my head. None of these guys would sell the aforementioned coin, however, and certainly not without a high quality photo, a generous return privilige, and an accurate description of the coin's problems. I would not expect you or your ilk to be in the same league as these gentlemen. >>
In addition to what RYK said, you would have gained much more by graciously saying "I'm sorry" than by whining over a $200 loss.
Your own picture of that coin was warning enough that it had been doctored.
Sticking to your rule "3 days to return less 10%" may make your books balance but it certainly won't make you find returning customers in this environment. As jmski52 has already shown what his ethics are like (see http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=568736&highlight_key=y) you would do yourself a favor by whining less and showing whether you can live up to the same standard.
In business one's reputation is worth more than petty bean counting and wondering whether a dog of a coin has been replaced by an even worse dog (if there actually is one).
cho10
Collecting since the 1980's Morgan Dollars Circ. Strikes - Basic Set - Varieties - Prooflike Basic Set - Date Set - Carson City - Early S Mint Short Set - Mintmark Type Set Morgan Dollars Proof - Basic Set - Varieties Peace Circ.
One thing further -- this coin, which certainly appears to be a proof albeit a messed-with one, is not without value. There are people who willingly buy problem coins, provided their problems are properly disclosed. Heck, it's still an incredibly well struck, scarce historic collectible. My guess is that with a good photo and with all its problems disclosed, this coin would still close on ebay for over $150. Jmski52 probably won the bidding against a field of bidders all of whom assumed it to be a problem coin and knowingly bid on it as such.
In reality, then, all this unfriendliness is occuring over fifty bucks or so, or maybe even less.
There are lessons here both for the buyer and the seller. 'Nuff said.
edited -- BTW, I have seen over years now that this business about switching coins is almost never cited as a rationale for anything by anyone except those who try to stick others with junky coins with problems.
The buyer dragged his feet for a month and found out he was wrong about the coin. He also made too many assumptions and dragged this out here before taking it to the seller first. I would agree with the seller to not accept a return but maybe make an offer to buy the coin back. Had the buyer worked out a longer return policy to get another opinion before bidding, the seller could have simply agreed or sent the guy walking. The buyer had assumed to much here, thinking he's free to do whatever he wants. He agreed to the 3 days and accepted the coin as problem free. The bottom line, sellers don't need to be perfect, measuring up to PCGS all the time. Life doesn't work that way. PCGS only offers an opinion. If it was so important at the time of the sale, the buyer would have been prepared and have taken the neccesary steps to assure himself of a coin without hairlines. But he dragged his feet and he didn't work out a deal with seller before bidding. On the other hand since the buyer did bring this to a public coin forum and if the seller thinks that he's got to honor a return, I wouldn't expect him to do so but possibly make an offer to buy back the coin at a lesser price because neither knew the coin had hairlines so the coin's worth less now. I don't believe there would be many dealers around if they had to accept returns from everyone whenever they decided to return a coin. It just doesn't work out that way. You best know what your doing in the time you agreed to examine the coin.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>I am the one who sold this coin. He bought the coin which I bought at a local coin auction as a proof. It looked good to me and I listed it as I had bought it. I have a return policy. He got the coin and left positive feedback stating he was happy with the coin. One month later he all of a sudden wants a full refund. How do I know it is even the same coin I sold to him? It was a raw coin. How do I know what if anything was done to the coin after leaving my hands? Show me one dealer who would sell a raw coin then after one month give a full refund to the buyer. It is unreasonable to expect them too. >>
Welcome to the PCGS U.S. Coin Furm. The remarks you make are reasonable in terms of normal commercial behavior. I know of some board members that behave the same way: "after the grace period for returning the coin is over no more refunds". Technically speaking you are 100% in the right.
Ethically speaking, had I been in your position, I would ahve accepted the return after 6 months. By holding to your formally correct postion, you leave the door open for doubts about your rectitude. My business ethic would not allow me to do that.
The road to make that coin sellable is to send it to ANACS and have it slabbed as "whizzed" if that is what it is.
By claiming (in good faith I am sure) that this coin is "problem free" you allow your commecial sense of ethics to be questioned.
jmski52 has recognized that he should have acted sooner and just about every body and their cousins have jumped at the opportunity to criticize his tardiness. The fact remains that the coin shown in your pictures quite obviously "doctored". I tink one's reputation is worth ore than $200. >>
I agree with what cho10 said. Another way to make the coin salable is to describe it as an impaired proof with hairlines and sell it raw. And as Mirabela said,
<< <i>One thing further -- this coin, which certainly appears to be a proof albeit a messed-with one, is not without value. There are people who willingly buy problem coins, provided their problems are properly disclosed. Heck, it's still an incredibly well struck, scarce historic collectible. My guess is that with a good photo and with all its problems disclosed, this coin would still close on ebay for over $150. Jmski52 probably won the bidding against a field of bidders all of whom assumed it to be a problem coin and knowingly bid on it as such. >>
So, one option is to accept a return of the coin with the restocking charge, then sell it again with an accurate description. Another option is to refuse to accept the return and let the sale stand, and trash your own reputation for less than $50. Isn't your reputation worth more than 50 bucks? I know mine is.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Comments
If you assume that every seller on ebay with horrible photos and a 10% surcharge for returns is trying to steal your money, you will miss some opportunities to get burned.
<< <i>OK, Red Tiger, I'll bite. Whether or not "you know your coins," the seller has an obligation to describe the coin honestly. Yes? or No? >>
In the real world, the harsh answer is no. There are a thousand sellers like the one you bought from, passing off overgraded, or other wise tampered with coins. Some of them sell on Ebay, some of them are at coin shows, some of them run ads in the coin magazines, some of them sell at live auctions. Spend $200 with each of them, if you like, it won't change anything. There is a lot of subjectivity in the hobby, and there are many folks more than willing to say something to take your money.
The seller had a photo, from which most people that have looked at more than five proof Liberty nickels in hand would never have bid on. The seller had a return privilege, albeit a limited one. The seller used some puffery, but that is average for a raw coin seller on Ebay, deal with it. Thank goodness for you it is only a $200 lesson and the coin is actually a proof with some numismatic value.
The harsh reality is that there are a lot of ways to make stupid purchases, and you choose one of them. Instead of taking responsibility, you are looking to pin the tail on the seller. Maybe next you'll move up one level of scammer to no-name slabbed coins that are in MS65 holders and then wonder why no dealer will offer more than AU money for them. Maybe after that you will hook up with some "investment" firm selling "special" coins for 3x retail price and think you are getting some great hidden bargain. I'm sorry, but I have zero sympathy.
Short message to all newbies: Please take the time to learn how to grade. Until you learn that much, avoid buying expensive raw coins, especially those with lousy photos. For the average new collector a year of more is required. Start slow, collect what you like, keep early mistakes small, most everyone makes mistakes when they are new.
Amen and Amen again!! Have you looked at the cost of tuition at NotreDame lately? Hell of a deal for a $200 education. Talk to the seller , a partial refund may be worked out. Good luck !
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
At the same time, I'm coming to the realization that much of the "oh, it's obvious to me the coin is a problem, tsk tsk learn how to grade sonny" is Monday Morning Quarterbacking. TPGs can't even decide consistently on grade or even if a coin is AT, NT, or cleaned; why should we be surprised when someone else can't either.
Red Tiger - Thank you oh-so-much for your help. If I ever do decide to take advice from you, it will only be after:
1) you learn to avoid insulting someone's intelligence when they've made a mistake,
2) learn that sleaseballs don't deserve yet another free pass in life, and
3) show signs (any glimmer of recognition will do) that you don't have to drag someone else down in order to elevate your own stature.
I knew it would happen.
Step1 Place Bid.
Step2 Win Auction.
Step3 Pay for Auction.
Step 4 Receive coin.
Step5 Inspect Coin for any problems and determine level of satisfaction.
Step6 If coin is unsatisfactory, return coin in the SELLER'S SPECIFIED RETURN PERIOD.
Step 7 Receive refund.
Step 8 Leave feedback accordingly.
You failed at Step 5 and therefor Step 6 and 7 are not applicable. Feedback should always be the last step of the process for they buyer.
JJ
Another raw coin E-Bay sale gone bad....
THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH!
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>I am the one who sold this coin. He bought the coin which I bought at a local coin auction as a proof. It looked good to me and I listed it as I had bought it. I have a return policy. He got the coin and left positive feedback stating he was happy with the coin. One month later he all of a sudden wants a full refund. How do I know it is even the same coin I sold to him? It was a raw coin. How do I know what if anything was done to the coin after leaving my hands? Show me one dealer who would sell a raw coin then after one month give a full refund to the buyer. It is unreasonable to expect them too. >>
Welcome to the PCGS U.S. Coin Furm.
The remarks you make are reasonable in terms of normal commercial behavior.
I know of some board members that behave the same way: "after the grace period for returning the coin is over no more refunds".
Technically speaking you are 100% in the right.
Ethically speaking, had I been in your position, I would ahve accepted the return after 6 months. By holding to your formally correct postion, you leave the door open for doubts about your rectitude. My business ethic would not allow me to do that.
The road to make that coin sellable is to send it to ANACS and have it slabbed as "whizzed" if that is what it is.
By claiming (in good faith I am sure) that this coin is "problem free" you allow your commecial sense of ethics to be questioned.
jmski52 has recognized that he should have acted sooner and just about every body and their cousins have jumped at the opportunity to criticize his tardiness.
The fact remains that the coin shown in your pictures quite obviously "doctored".
I tink one's reputation is worth ore than $200.
Collecting since the 1980's
Morgan Dollars Circ. Strikes
- Basic Set - Varieties - Prooflike Basic Set - Date Set
- Carson City - Early S Mint Short Set - Mintmark Type Set
Morgan Dollars Proof
- Basic Set - Varieties
Peace Circ.
<< <i>
<< <i>The guy's name on ebay is ron60coins. He sold me an 1890 Liberty Nickel on ebay that looked good in the pic. When I got it, I noticed some faint hairlines, but I thought I'd get another opinion. Yesterday, at the Coin Show in St. Louis, I got a unanimous opinion from all the dealers I showed it to, that the coin was an AU or BU, "processed" or "whizzed" to appear Proof.
If he represented it on ebay as Proof and it's not, can I force him to take it back? Can I get him booted off ebay if I document the situation?
Does anyone know if this is enough of a criminal act to get the Post Office involved? >>
Hey I have an idea, why not buy a plane ticket and fly to where he is... walk up to him and shoot him in the face... then when he hits the ground, double tap him.
Then... ask him if he knew it was whizzed.
That sounds reasonable to me,
Ray >>
I didn't read all of this thread, but this post is funny as hell
<< <i>I put 90% of the blame on the buyer. >>
I think that's a little harsh. I'd go with a 50/50 split. The seller sold a POS described as problem-free, and the buyer jumped in to the water when he doesn't know how to swim.
Russ, NCNE
Actually, there are plenty. Dennis Tarrant, James Garcia, John Marburger, and Jon Rosenthal (RCNH), to name some off the top of my head. None of these guys would sell the aforementioned coin, however, and certainly not without a high quality photo, a generous return privilige, and an accurate description of the coin's problems. I would not expect you or your ilk to be in the same league as these gentlemen.
refunds when someone sends the coin to a Third and it get BB'd or such. Hey,
work it out. You both blew that one!
Good luck,
bob
<< <i>Show me one dealer who would sell a raw coin then after one month give a full refund to the buyer.
Actually, there are plenty. Dennis Tarrant, James Garcia, John Marburger, and Jon Rosenthal (RCNH), to name some off the top of my head. None of these guys would sell the aforementioned coin, however, and certainly not without a high quality photo, a generous return privilige, and an accurate description of the coin's problems. I would not expect you or your ilk to be in the same league as these gentlemen. >>
In addition to what RYK said, you would have gained much more by graciously saying "I'm sorry" than by whining over a $200 loss.
Your own picture of that coin was warning enough that it had been doctored.
Sticking to your rule "3 days to return less 10%" may make your books balance but it certainly won't make you find returning customers in this environment. As jmski52 has already shown what his ethics are like (see http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=568736&highlight_key=y) you would do yourself a favor by whining less and showing whether you can live up to the same standard.
In business one's reputation is worth more than petty bean counting and wondering whether a dog of a coin has been replaced by an even worse dog (if there actually is one).
Collecting since the 1980's
Morgan Dollars Circ. Strikes
- Basic Set - Varieties - Prooflike Basic Set - Date Set
- Carson City - Early S Mint Short Set - Mintmark Type Set
Morgan Dollars Proof
- Basic Set - Varieties
Peace Circ.
One thing further -- this coin, which certainly appears to be a proof albeit a messed-with one, is not without value. There are people who willingly buy problem coins, provided their problems are properly disclosed. Heck, it's still an incredibly well struck, scarce historic collectible. My guess is that with a good photo and with all its problems disclosed, this coin would still close on ebay for over $150. Jmski52 probably won the bidding against a field of bidders all of whom assumed it to be a problem coin and knowingly bid on it as such.
In reality, then, all this unfriendliness is occuring over fifty bucks or so, or maybe even less.
There are lessons here both for the buyer and the seller. 'Nuff said.
edited -- BTW, I have seen over years now that this business about switching coins is almost never cited as a rationale for anything by anyone except those who try to stick others with junky coins with problems.
On the other hand since the buyer did bring this to a public coin forum and if the seller thinks that he's got to honor a return, I wouldn't expect him to do so but possibly make an offer to buy back the coin at a lesser price because neither knew the coin had hairlines so the coin's worth less now. I don't believe there would be many dealers around if they had to accept returns from everyone whenever they decided to return a coin. It just doesn't work out that way. You best know what your doing in the time you agreed to examine the coin.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>I am the one who sold this coin. He bought the coin which I bought at a local coin auction as a proof. It looked good to me and I listed it as I had bought it. I have a return policy. He got the coin and left positive feedback stating he was happy with the coin. One month later he all of a sudden wants a full refund. How do I know it is even the same coin I sold to him? It was a raw coin. How do I know what if anything was done to the coin after leaving my hands? Show me one dealer who would sell a raw coin then after one month give a full refund to the buyer. It is unreasonable to expect them too. >>
Welcome to the PCGS U.S. Coin Furm.
The remarks you make are reasonable in terms of normal commercial behavior.
I know of some board members that behave the same way: "after the grace period for returning the coin is over no more refunds".
Technically speaking you are 100% in the right.
Ethically speaking, had I been in your position, I would ahve accepted the return after 6 months. By holding to your formally correct postion, you leave the door open for doubts about your rectitude. My business ethic would not allow me to do that.
The road to make that coin sellable is to send it to ANACS and have it slabbed as "whizzed" if that is what it is.
By claiming (in good faith I am sure) that this coin is "problem free" you allow your commecial sense of ethics to be questioned.
jmski52 has recognized that he should have acted sooner and just about every body and their cousins have jumped at the opportunity to criticize his tardiness.
The fact remains that the coin shown in your pictures quite obviously "doctored".
I tink one's reputation is worth ore than $200. >>
I agree with what cho10 said. Another way to make the coin salable is to describe it as an impaired proof with hairlines and sell it raw.
And as Mirabela said,
<< <i>One thing further -- this coin, which certainly appears to be a proof albeit a messed-with one, is not without value. There are people who willingly buy problem coins, provided their problems are properly disclosed. Heck, it's still an incredibly well struck, scarce historic collectible. My guess is that with a good photo and with all its problems disclosed, this coin would still close on ebay for over $150. Jmski52 probably won the bidding against a field of bidders all of whom assumed it to be a problem coin and knowingly bid on it as such. >>
So, one option is to accept a return of the coin with the restocking charge, then sell it again with an accurate description. Another option is to refuse to accept the return and let the sale stand, and trash your own reputation for less than $50. Isn't your reputation worth more than 50 bucks? I know mine is.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>I did nothing wrong, other than being a little stupid. >>
Pretty much sums up this thread.