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Bought a whizzed coin represented as Proof from Ron Knight - anyone know him?
jmski52
Posts: 23,964 ✭✭✭✭✭
The guy's name on ebay is ron60coins. He sold me an 1890 Liberty Nickel on ebay that looked good in the pic. When I got it, I noticed some faint hairlines, but I thought I'd get another opinion. Yesterday, at the Coin Show in St. Louis, I got a unanimous opinion from all the dealers I showed it to, that the coin was an AU or BU, "processed" or "whizzed" to appear Proof.
If he represented it on ebay as Proof and it's not, can I force him to take it back? Can I get him booted off ebay if I document the situation?
Does anyone know if this is enough of a criminal act to get the Post Office involved?
If he represented it on ebay as Proof and it's not, can I force him to take it back? Can I get him booted off ebay if I document the situation?
Does anyone know if this is enough of a criminal act to get the Post Office involved?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I knew it would happen.
I knew it would happen.
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how long ago did you buy it?
do you have a link to auction?
what was the guys return policy? did you ask them about a return?
it sounds like you did not know it was not a proof when you got it
Ken
something just doesnt look right. sadly, i think you gambled and lost on this one.
Why do you think you can get him thrown off of Ebay>?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>The guy's name on ebay is ron60coins. He sold me an 1890 Liberty Nickel on ebay that looked good in the pic. When I got it, I noticed some faint hairlines, but I thought I'd get another opinion. Yesterday, at the Coin Show in St. Louis, I got a unanimous opinion from all the dealers I showed it to, that the coin was an AU or BU, "processed" or "whizzed" to appear Proof.
If he represented it on ebay as Proof and it's not, can I force him to take it back? Can I get him booted off ebay if I document the situation?
Does anyone know if this is enough of a criminal act to get the Post Office involved? >>
Hey I have an idea, why not buy a plane ticket and fly to where he is... walk up to him and shoot him in the face... then when he hits the ground, double tap him.
Then... ask him if he knew it was whizzed.
That sounds reasonable to me,
Ray
have you tried contacting him?
<< <i>But, he's a
Russ, NCNE >>
Collectors must take some responsibility also. The picture is crap. Russ would you bid on the coin ? I would not. Our member took a $225.00 chance and struck out.
Ken
<< <i>Have you expressed your dissatisfaction with the coin, including the other dealers' opinions, and given him a chance to give you a refund? That's usually a good first step before blasting someone on a message board, even though I have a fairly low opinion of dealers who regularly sell whizzed and polished AU coins as "BU" or proof. >>
That has been added to the POSITIVE Feedback he left the seller.
Ken
<< <i>Russ would you bid on the coin ? >>
Of course not. The image makes it obvious that it's a POS. And, frankly, this troubles me:
<< <i>Nice coin - they don't mak'em like that anymore. Recommended Seller.
Buyer jmski52( 193) Jan-18-07 15:34 180067721038
Follow-up by jmski52: Multiple Experts confirmed - THIS COIN IS TAMPERED WITH, NOT PROOF, WHIZZED. >>
The fact that he thought the coin was nice when first received and didn't recognize the problems makes it painfully obvious that he should not be buying raw coins on eBay.
That said, the seller is still a sleazeball.
Russ, NCNE
You dont get too many lib nicks business strikes with a hammered strike like that.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
I knew it would happen.
(1) 1890 PROOF Liberty Nickel. Very nice problem free coin, I Had problems photographing because she has such highly reflective surfaces, deep mirrors and frosty devices. A wonderful cameo effect, but you decide for yourself and bid accordingly.Text
I guess so...
I take full responsibility. It was sold as a "no problem" Proof coin. What would you do? Eat the loss on a bogus coin?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>you might consider taking responsibility for your buying it
I take full responsibility. It was sold as a "no problem" Proof coin. What would you do? Eat the loss on a bogus coin? >>
He has a three day return policy. If you are going to buy raw coins on eBay you need to learn to grade and/or detect problems yourself so that you can avail yourself of a return policy within stated time frames.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>you might consider taking responsibility for your buying it
[I take full responsibility. It was sold as a "no problem" Proof coin. What would you do? Eat the loss on a bogus coin? >>
"but you decide for yourself and bid accordingly"....doubt if PO would get involved. He could say...."Hey, thats not the coin I sent...He switched it"!
Absolutely, Russ - at least not buying raw coins on ebay with any degree of trust.
I did look at it when I received it, but not that closely. I did leave him a positive comment, and when I got to looking more closely, I started thinking about getting other opinions, which I didn't do until this weekend.
I didn't say that I was diligent. But I am saying that the guy should either make it right, or he is a crook. One of the Two is true.
I knew it would happen.
SM1 calls me a troublemaker....
--------------------------------------------
Sunday August 19, 2007 9:17AM
A mentor awarded " YOU SUCK!!"
<< <i>you might consider taking responsibility for your buying it
I take full responsibility. It was sold as a "no problem" Proof coin. What would you do? Eat the loss on a bogus coin? >>
I would contact the seller and inform him that he sold a bogus coin and request your money back minus anything it cost him to ship/paypal fees. If he refused, then maybe I would shoot him... no serious, at least give the seller the chance to correct the wrong before you chastise him... I mean thats just me and what I would do... Oh, and I would not have purchased a raw coin on the bay like this, the way I see it (And I know I'm going to get flamed for this) if the coin is this nice, it would be in a slab... especially being sold on the bay.
Just my freaking opinion... not worth much these days (Word on the block is I'm a coin murderer)
Ray
<< <i>The fact that he thought the coin was nice when first received and didn't recognize the problems makes it painfully obvious that he should not be buying raw coins on eBay. Absolutely, Russ - at least not buying raw coins on ebay with any degree of trust. I did look at it when I received it, but not that closely. I did leave him a positive comment, and when I got to looking more closely, I started thinking about getting other opinions, which I didn't do until this weekend. I didn't say that I was diligent. But I am saying that the guy should either make it right, or he is a crook. One of the Two is true. >>
Maybe I read too fast but I didn't see any indication here that you have contacted him and asked what his explanation was and if he was willing to take it back. --Jerry
<< <i><<For the love of Budda, he is selling teenie beanie babies... shoot, shoot!>>
Finally someone is catching my humor... I mean I'm laying it on pretty thick here.... I think I need a break from the putter... I mean if you knew where I was sitting right now... Forget it..
<< <i>It was sold as a "no problem" Proof coin. What would you do? Eat the loss on a bogus coin? >>
What I wouldn't do is take an unknown dealer's word for what the coin was unless (a) I knew how to evaluate the coin when I received it and (b) there was a sufficient return privilege if I judged it to be something I didn't like for what I paid for it.
Unfortunately, much of eBay (like some of the multi-page Coin World ads) is a cesspool for "dealers" (who give the word a bad name) hoping to sell coins like this to buyers who won't know they are getting ripped off when they receive the coins until well after the sale is complete and the return period (if any) has passed. So while it seems lousy to simply say "caveat emptor," the simple fact, like it or not, is that that's what buying raw on eBay *is*. If you can't evaluate the coin on your own or get an opinion you *really* trust before the return period expires, either don't buy the coin or prepare to be ripped off. Sorry, but it is that simple, unfortunately.
What would I do, assuming I would have gotten myself in that situation (which I might have long ago, but not now)? Contact the seller. I would have done that before posting a followup to your eBay feedback or writing about it on this message board. I would have explained the situation and expressed my extreme dissatisfaction, giving him the chance to waive his return period and give me a refund. Had he refused, THEN I followup on the feedback, out him on a message board and chalk it up as tuition toward my numismatic education.
I vascillate between trust and distrust all the time, but this one is pretty clear to me.
Note - I had contacted him and received his reply before posting.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
If he represented it on ebay as Proof and it's not,
can I force him to take it back? >>
No
<< <i>Can I get him booted off ebay if I document the situation? >>
No
<< <i>Does anyone know if this is enough of a criminal act to get the Post Office involved? >>
No, it is not mail fraud to misrepresent the condition of a coin (in his mind it might be problem free). Coin grading is an art not a science, expert opinions offer differ which is why most TPG have three people grading coins instead of one.
Ziggy, that is exactly what I am doing. I would strongly warn all of the board about this guy, because in my opinion, if he had this coin as part of a 25 year collection, as stated in his auction, he probably did know exactly what the coin is. If not, then he absolutely should make it right.
And yes, although I don't own any Liberty Nickel Proofs, I probably should have caught this alot sooner, and I certainly could have done things differently. My own sloppiness shouldn't excuse the guy.
The flip side to this is that I've had numerous very good experiences on ebay. It's not the venue that's the problem, it's only certain individuals, to be sure.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>I did look at it when I received it, but not that closely. >>
This is the 2nd time in two weeks I have read this from a buyer that has got on the forums and complained about a coin after they finally decided to take a close look at the coin they bought. The other example is on the Registry forum.
Man, I just do not understand why collectors buy coins if they are not going to LOOK at them.
Ken
<< <i>To me, that is certainly fraud >>
Might be. But, to prove fraud you have to prove intent. You'll never be able to do that. He would simply argue that it was sold to him as a proof and he was duped. Case closed.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>His response - 3 day return policy. If the coin were a Proof, I would consider it a fair sale. All of the opinions that I got (including dealers who had actual proofs for sale) was that it is not a Proof. To me, that is certainly fraud, especially if he won't stand behind his auction statement, "All my items are guaranteed genuine."
I vascillate between trust and distrust all the time, but this one is pretty clear to me.
Note - I had contacted him and received his reply before posting. >>
For those of you as confused as I am:
from www.dictionary.com
<< <i>No results found for vascillate.
Did you mean vacillate (in dictionary) >>
I think this is the one you ment
<< <i>vac·il·late (vās'ə-lāt') Pronunciation Key
intr.v. vac·il·lat·ed, vac·il·lat·ing, vac·il·lates
1. To sway from one side to the other; oscillate.
2. To swing indecisively from one course of action or opinion to another. See Synonyms at hesitate.
>>
Now let me re-read what he wrote to see if I understand
<< <i>Ziggy, that is exactly what I am doing. I would strongly warn all of the board about this guy, because in my opinion, if he had this coin as part of a 25 year collection, as stated in his auction, he probably did know exactly what the coin is. If not, then he absolutely should make it right. >>
He should ethically, but he's not required to legally. Grading is subjective, and maybe he was fooled by it, too. (I'm guessing not, but that's enough reasonable doubt to derail a fraud charge unless he did something stupid like write a note to a friend that he just got rid of some whizzed/polished "junk" as a Proof and the note was subpoenaed as evidence.) Having tried and failed to get a refund, sure, outing the guy and the stuff he sells is legitimate.
But not ONLY should it warn people about one seller, but it should also warn anyone who isn't confident in their ability to evaluate raw coins that they shouldn't buy same on eBay, and even then make sure there's a reasonable return policy in place.
Sorry to say it, but You Got Stiffed. And at this point there is little if anything you can do legally. The best you can do as a ripped off consumer is warn people about the seller -- and in that, you've done a service.
Did you mean vacillate (in dictionary) >>
Maybe I was thinking vasectomy, instead of double tap.
I knew it would happen.
tell him it looked good to you when you got it and sent it to PCGS
and they bodybagged it for altered surfaces, and see if you can get your money back
You shouldn't be spending so much on coins until you learn more - this coin is part of your tuition
I normally don't buy from people who use the following phrase in their description->
All my items are guarenteed genuine
siliconvalleycoins.com
Having written all of that, I will state that the coin does look more like a proof to me than a business strike. Based on the images only, I would have thought the coin to be an impaired proof.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Concerning the coin, it's a Proof. It could well be that it's impaired as you say. He may not have known it.
The seller has a return policy, and if you contact him he may well return your money, if you tell him the auction said it was problem free, and it isn't.
Ray
Ok, let's talk numismatics.
The coin (under 10X magnification) exhibits hairlines in more than one direction. The areas next to the stars show metal flow that looks more like an unc than a mirror. If it were a proof, the area next to the stars should have mirrored surfaces like the rest of the fields, shouldn't it?
I'd be glad to let anyone examine it, if there is an interest.
I knew it would happen.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
You gotta buy from the man or you gonna get burned!!!
<< <i>You gotta buy from the man or you gonna get burned!!! >>
Personally, I'd rather think the preferable answer was "learn how to grade and evaluate coins well" rather than "place all dependence on slabbers." But yeah, if someone won't buy the book before the coin, at least they can cut their losses short. And they'll notice they have to pay a LOT more for similar-looking stuff.
So ..You learned how to grade and evaluate coins from a book?
<< <i>
<< <i>You gotta buy from the man or you gonna get burned!!! >>
Personally, I'd rather think the preferable answer was "learn how to grade and evaluate coins well" rather than "place all dependence on slabbers." >>
I agree with learning to grade on your own and doing so within the return period before you leave positive feedback. If you're willing to take a gamble and the restocking fee hit, you can also post the photos on the forums and get opinions so you'll know whether you want to return it before the coin arrives (or even before you pay). Also, don't take the auction description or slab insert at face value. As for placing complete reliance on plastic, isn't there another popular thread on a problem coin in good plastic running right now?
I think that the issue is honesty and trust, as much as it is knowing how to grade and evaluate coins. The photo looked like mirrored surfaces to me. The trust issue - I bought a $4,500.00 coin yesterday from Tom Reynolds, whom I trust. That trust was built up over a period of about 25 years, as I learned about the Large Cents that I was buying. Conversely, I will not buy a coin from Ron Knight ever again, and I would warn you not to, as well.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>So ..You learned how to grade and evaluate coins from a book? >>
I think you perfectly well know what I mean. That's a well-established maxim that means learn your stuff before selling a lot of money on coins.
[Edit to add: I meant "...SPENDING a lot of money on coins," not selling.]
<< <i>I think that the issue is honesty and trust, as much as it is knowing how to grade and evaluate coins. The photo looked like mirrored surfaces to me. The trust issue - I bought a $4,500.00 coin yesterday from Tom Reynolds, whom I trust. That trust was built up over a period of about 25 years, as I learned about the Large Cents that I was buying. Conversely, I will not buy a coin from Ron Knight ever again, and I would warn you not to, as well. >>
Good point, and trust in Tom Reynolds is well-placed.
<< <i> I bought a $4,500.00 coin yesterday from Tom Reynolds, whom I trust. That trust was built up over a period of about 25 years, as I learned about the Large Cents that I was buying. Conversely, I will not buy a coin from Ron Knight ever again, and I would warn you not to, as well. >>
I look forward to the NEWP thread for that one!