1) 1890 PROOF Liberty Nickel. Very nice problem free coin, I Had problems photographing because she has such highly reflective surfaces, deep mirrors and frosty devices.
I'd ask for a return. minus of course 10% restocking.
be sure to tell this seler he is on my do not do business with list.
I have never seen a Liberty nickel, photo or in person, that looked quite like that one in the ebay link. I agree with the arguments presented here for the coin being a proof, maybe not a nice one, but a proof nonetheless. You took a minor hosing on it. Dump it back on ebay and move on.
Please post a photo of your new large cent so that we all may enjoy it.
<< <i>you might consider taking responsibility for your buying it
I take full responsibility. It was sold as a "no problem" Proof coin. >>
Here's the Seller's return policy:
"Items have a 3 day return policy. If for any reason you are not happy with your purchase just send the item back as you recieved it and I'll refund your bid minus a 10% restocking fee which covers my listing fees and paypal fees."
<< <i>What would you do? Eat the loss on a bogus coin? >>
Looks like you may end up spending $225 for the "lesson" in this situation - you had 3 days to look at the coin and make a decision as to whether you wanted to keep it or return it. Apparently based on your initial feedback you believed it to be a "real" proof as apparently so did the seller. If you believed the coin was a real proof, what's to say that the Seller of that coin did not have the same mistaken belief that you had?
If it had graded PF66 and was worth $1000 would you have paid the Seller something extra or kept the profit for yourself? What you've learned is that aren't any Santa Clauses on ebay. What you might consider doing is buying a very good loupe (which is a lot less than $225) and learn the characteristics of real proof coins and the characteristics of whizzed/polished coins. If you're not willing to do that, then you shouldn't be buying raw coins on ebay. Unless you still have a return privilege it looks like you're going to have to chalk this up as an "educational expense"!
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
I have never seen a Liberty nickel, photo or in person, that looked quite like that one in the ebay link. I agree with the arguments presented here for the coin being a proof, maybe not a nice one, but a proof nonetheless.
Here's a pic. You think it's really a Proof?
Thanks for all the comments and advice. After this round of remarks, I gotta let it go. Regards, Jerry
Now I have to post that newp from the St. Louis Show.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>What you've learned is that aren't any Santa Clauses on ebay. >>
Yes, there are. I've built my stash buying from him.
Russ, NCNE >>
How true Russ, BUT - you KNOW what you're doing and I'm sure you've paid your dues and made a "mistake" or two in the process. So perhaps I should edit my comment to sy:
There are no Santa Clauses on ebay UNLESS you know what you're doing, know how to grade coins and the supposed Santa Clause is not two steps ahead of you with his/her intended scam, for everyone else there are no Santa Clauses.
As for the purchaser of the whizzed/polished V Nickel I noted this comment:
<< <i>I think that the issue is honesty and trust, as much as it is knowing how to grade and evaluate coins. The photo looked like mirrored surfaces to me. The trust issue - I bought a $4,500.00 coin yesterday from Tom Reynolds, whom I trust. That trust was built up over a period of about 25 years, as I learned about the Large Cents that I was buying. Conversely, I will not buy a coin from Ron Knight ever again, and I would warn you not to, as well. >>
I would only say this: IF he has been collecting coins for 25 years asis implied by the fact that he has had a 25 year relationship with Tom Reynolds, then it is unfortunate that he hasn't learned how to grade and doesn't use a high quality loupe on the coins he buys. A Zeiss or Eschenbach loupe would have quickly revealed that the "proof" coin in question was "messed" with and he could have returned the coin and been out only the $30+ that TomB referenced. Anyone buying $4500 coins should: A) Own a good loupe, learn to use it and C) learn how to grade raw coins - whether MS or PF.
To not to the do the above three things is asking to get skinned. A relatively cheap lesson IMHO. THis is NOT a question of Trust or Honesty. It is a question of prudence. Ebay is an auction. If you buy at auction, you own it, unless you comply with the terms of the auction. It's unfortunate that this happened and jmski52 now owns a coin of minimal value. In the long run it may be a chaep lesson - I doubt whether jmski52 will buy any $4500 coins on ebay.
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
A) Own a good loupe, learn to use it and C) learn how to grade raw coins - whether MS or PF.
Yes, and I actually do own a loupe, know how to use it, and know how to grade. And I admit my mistake - I wasn't paranoid, and I wasn't all over him from the get-go, like I should have been.
And yes. Lesson Learned. Absolutely. But also remember - if the guy was legit, he wouldn't have a problem making it right. Is that not also true?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>A) Own a good loupe, learn to use it and C) learn how to grade raw coins - whether MS or PF.
Yes, and I actually do own a loupe, know how to use it, and know how to grade. And I admit my mistake - I wasn't paranoid, and I wasn't all over him from the get-go, like I should have been.
And yes. Lesson Learned. Absolutely. But also remember - if the guy was legit, he wouldn't have a problem making it right. Is that not also true? >>
I'm not sure I agree with this, put yourself in the sellers seat... How long was it between the time you won the auction and when you contacted the seller with the notion of return? As the seller, I'm thinking you just have buyers remorse and your tying to get your money back after a few weeks... The auction clearly states there is a retern period, it's your job as a buyer to evaluate the item and decide within that period... After that period, the seller is obsolved unless, he or she purposly listed a false auction.
Just my opinion, the seller did his job, you failed to do your job, now your trying to find a way to burn the seller, and get us to re-enforce your position.
No, Mr. Paseo, I would much rather keep the coin, since I bought it as a gift for someone. But not a processed coin sold as a genuine proof.
But yes, I didn't do my job very well, and I admit that. On the other hand, I didn't have opportunity to get a professional opinion until yesterday. I didn't deem a $200 coin critical enough to start running back & forth 100 miles in each direction because I saw some hairlines.
Wanna buy the coin from me? Take a look at the pic and make me an offer. You know the history now.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>No, Mr. Paseo, I would much rather keep the coin, since I bought it as a gift for someone. But not a processed coin sold as a genuine proof.
But yes, I didn't do my job very well, and I admit that. On the other hand, I didn't have opportunity to get a professional opinion until yesterday. I didn't deem a $200 coin critical enough to start running back & forth 100 miles in each direction because I saw some hairlines.
Wanna buy the coin from me? Take a look at the pic and make me an offer. You know the history now. >>
What a whizzed coin? No way wouldn't touch it...lol. Sorry I had to. Seriously I don't think the situation is funny and I realize I may have been a bit of an ass with my responses... sorry bout that.
Hey Ray, my intentions were to warn the board about a seller and to explore my options about any recourse. God knows that you don't have much recourse with ebay, but that's an old joke around here, I know.
I am getting a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth from thinking about this seller and this transaction. We're all big boys here. I made a mistake, and I understand it totally. I doubt that it'll happen to me again. This thread's been an education in and of itself.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I say as a seller of coins you are considered the expert, do not put in auctions "guaranteed genuine" or "unmessed with coin" unless you want to stand behind that statement. I guess thats what makes PCGS and NGC so needed to alot of coin collectors. Any way just my opinion but If your gonna go out on a limb and make that statement I say stand behind it or do not make it. I have met alot of great coin dealers, actually surprised me how alot of them are helpful and honest, but as in any Buss there are also those that don't value there reputations. AL
I've only been in your shoes once, buying from Ebay.
An "estate" seller put up for auction a "problem-free" raw Bust half, AU. Photos looked good, so I bit.
Got the coin, and it was obviously whizzed, tooled and harshly cleaned. Major nose job with a dremel.
Contacted the seller that day, he stated "all sales are final - it's an estate".
I suggested a flight to Texas was not out of the question - the coin was obviously misrepresented and I would be happy to complain in person.
He replied that I could send him back the coin for a full refund, and to please not bid on any more of his auctions. I did so, he refunded the money, and I never looked at any more of his auctions.
Jmski52...based on the last pic you posted, I would say that the coin is definitely an impaired proof. The rims give it away (in addition to the strike etc.)
<< <i>My own sloppiness shouldn't excuse the guy. The flip side to this is that I've had numerous very good experiences on ebay. It's not the venue that's the problem, it's only certain individuals, to be sure. >>
Buying raw coins is always risky and it was even more so when there were no TPG's around to at least allow people to buy sight unseen.
I recently returned a slabbed coin that I didn't like and the seller immediately refunded me. When I say immediately I mean that his check arrived 3 days after receiving that coin back. I called him the same day that I received it and we talked it over and he said "unless you love it don't keep it". The coin in question is in a PCGS holder but I didn't like the strike while the color and lustre were fine or above average.
There are people in this world that value their reputation more than making a quick buck.
That said, however, the coin pictured is one I would never have purchased. Keep in mind that I have never purchased a Liberty Head nickel in my life and I know how easy it is to play the part of Cicero the Censor when discussing the experiences of others.
That coin just looks "wrong". 3 days to return a coin is not much.
If the coin is still in its original holder (to avoid the seller being able to claim that he had not received back the original coin back) then the question is why did you wait?
I hate being one of the people that tells you that the fault is mainly yours: a) for having made a bid for that coin based on a crappy picture. b) for having left positive feedback only to then change your mind c) for not having sought expert opinions BEFORE leaving feedback as you indicate that you are not an expert as far as that kind of coin is concerned d) for not having done research on his negatives and neutrals to see if the seller has a pattern of disputes for crappy merchandise (he does). I use http://www.toolhaus.org for that. e) because you did not take account of the 3 day return limit to at least send him a Registered letter (or at the very least an email message) with an indication that you had some doubts/concerns about that coin. That seller is a jerk in my opinion because a clean reputation is everything as far as I am concernd and he should have accepted the return even if the 3 days were long past. Unfortunately, unless he has a conscience crisis, I fear you'll have to assign this one to the chapter called "experience" and leave it at that. Keep that coin and frame it putting it in a place where you can see it when you surf on EBay. It will remind you to be more cautious next time.
cho10
Collecting since the 1980's Morgan Dollars Circ. Strikes - Basic Set - Varieties - Prooflike Basic Set - Date Set - Carson City - Early S Mint Short Set - Mintmark Type Set Morgan Dollars Proof - Basic Set - Varieties Peace Circ.
Looks proof to me as well. If you see hairlines, you should have returned it. Hairlines on any coin just don't cut it.
It's very possible the experienced seller has no clue. I always found in interesting that in my early days, most every B&M dealer in my area sold cleaned, polished, and screwed with coins as the real thing. It was as if they were blind to it. And I honestly believe most of them were since they rarely if ever saw good coins to compare against. Bright white Lib nickels were the rule. If those guys saw a nice orig toned one they'd dip and wipe it. And to my face they'd call those coins Gems, and believe it. Funny hobby.
The images you posted make the coin look much nicer than the seller's images and the coin still appears to be a proof. However, I am having trouble with this statement of yours-
<< <i>But yes, I didn't do my job very well, and I admit that. On the other hand, I didn't have opportunity to get a professional opinion until yesterday. I didn't deem a $200 coin critical enough to start running back & forth 100 miles in each direction because I saw some hairlines. >>
Again, this relates back to your motivation for buying a raw coin with a three-day return period that was to expire several weeks before you could get a professional opinion on the coin, which it appears you believed you needed, and leaves me scratching my head as to why you would ever have bid if you required such assurance or knowledge. Since the coin and the money involved weren't critical enough to do your homework, why are they now critical enough to wonder how you might retaliate against the seller?
If the coin has as many hairlines as you state then it is likely a cleaned proof. Might this have been missed by the seller? It's certainly possible. Would I consider that a crime, fraud or an ebay expulsion offense? Not at all. Would a responsible buyer have used the three-day return period to resolve this scenario? Absolutely. Truly, I am not finding you a sympathetic victim in this case.
Again, this relates back to your motivation for buying a raw coin with a three-day return period that was to expire several weeks before you could get a professional opinion on the coin, which it appears you believed you needed, and leaves me scratching my head as to why you would ever have bid if you required such assurance or knowledge. Since the coin and the money involved weren't critical enough to do your homework, why are they now critical enough to wonder how you might retaliate against the seller?
If the coin has as many hairlines as you state then it is likely a cleaned proof. Might this have been missed by the seller? It's certainly possible. Would I consider that a crime, fraud or an ebay expulsion offense? Not at all. Would a responsible buyer have used the three-day return period to resolve this scenario? Absolutely. Truly, I am not finding you a sympathetic victim in this case
Tom, if you are intent on being critical of my blunder, I urge you to consider that the guy stated it was a "no problem" Proof coin. My motivation was to buy a nice looking piece as a present. Exactly what "homework" would you have done before the coin was in hand? You question MY motivation? Geez! Frankly, I didn't think I'd even need another opinion on the coin when I bid for it. I don't care where you buy a coin, if the seller misrepresents a coin, YOU would give him the benefit of the doubt. Thanks, I'll remember where you're coming from - if I have occasion to deal with you, I won't.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I agree with ski52. It amazes me how some of you guys blame the buyers. Some of us are not as good in grading/authenticating and TAKE peoples words. Are we gullable? possibly. The fact of the matter is that it is very difficult to grade a coin thru a scan. Some of us rely on the written word. I guess we should all assume that sellers of raw coins on ebay are all FOS.
I'm not worried about the possibility of dealing with you, so you may leave the written and implied threats out of the conversation. If the seller did not notice the hairlines, which might or might not have happened, then I can see how the seller would write that the piece is "no problem". That is why I wrote the following-
<< <i>If the coin has as many hairlines as you state then it is likely a cleaned proof. Might this have been missed by the seller? It's certainly possible. Would I consider that a crime, fraud or an ebay expulsion offense? Not at all. Would a responsible buyer have used the three-day return period to resolve this scenario? Absolutely. >>
The "homework" that I am writing about consists of- 1) Inspecting the coin closely upon arrival, which is something you admit you did not do. 2) Knowing what it is the coin should look like upon arrival without the need of additional opinions, or, if additional opinions would possibly be required, to have a mechanism in place to obtain those opinions within the stated return policy time frame, which is something you admit you neither planned on nor were willing to perform.
These are two points that one should always adhere to with respect to a numismatic transaction, regardless if the coin is slabbed or raw, purchased from ebay, an established dealer website or in person on the bourse floor or at a shop.
I don't give a seller the general benefit of the doubt, just as I do not give a buyer sympathy for entering into a transaction without having prepared beforehand. Please see points one and two, above, if you are wondering what preparation I am writing about in this statement. My observations on this thread are that the seller is someone I would not have purchased from given the restocking fee listed in the auction and that you were in no way prepared to consumate this transaction within the parameters of the auction listing. Therefore, I am not writing that the seller is a swell guy and should be admired for his spotless business practices, but I am commenting on your approach to the trasaction. Lastly, this is nothing personal.
<< <i>On something like this, why not start a thread before you buy the coin and get opinions? I think it would have been overwhelming NOT to buy it. >>
You're right for the most part, but there's always the concern that if a coin really IS nice and looks like it's going for a steal, you're inviting competition to take it from you or make you pay more for it.
<< <i> I guess we should all assume that sellers of raw coins on ebay are all FOS. >>
Actually, that is a pretty good assumption. Any raw coin over $100 in numismatic value is suspect. Any heavily counterfeited coin such as Trade dollars, most key date coins, or any small denomination gold coins are suspect. A person best know what they are doing before bidding. If there is a limited return policy, best to get the coin evaluated within that time. If a person doesn't know coins, and can't do that, don't bid. Let me repeat, don't bid, if you don't know your coins. If uncertain, ask before bidding, not after.
I may sound harsh, but I am tired of what I see as irresponsible folks wanting to be bailed out of their mistakes. I put 90% of the blame on the buyer. Posting it here after the fact, makes it worse in my mind, so move that to 110%.
Like I said in another thread, if a person doesn't want to do any work and doesn't want to learn about coins or grading, stick to moderns in mint packaging, or bullion related coins near melt value. Again, I hate to sound harsh, but no one forced anyone to bid or buy. There are tons of overgraded, problem coins out there. These coins are out there in every venue, Ebay, auctions, magazine ads, every coin show bourse. Some of these coins are offered at what seem like bargain prices. Some sellers will say almost anything to get a sale. Some of these "gems" are described as premium quality, super-duper, elite coins, when they are complete garbage, or in the worst cases even counterfeit. The uneducated new collector looking for a "bargain," is how many of the sellers stay in business.
[The "homework" that I am writing about consists of- 1) Inspecting the coin closely upon arrival, which is something you admit you did not do. 2) Knowing what it is the coin should look like upon arrival without the need of additional opinions, or, if additional opinions would possibly be required, to have a mechanism in place to obtain those opinions within the stated return policy time frame, which is something you admit you neither planned on nor were willing to perform. /i]
Thank you for your mind-numbing insights. Exactly, what were the written and implied threats that you allude to? Oh, yeah, nothing personal.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I'd suggest you quit throwing around the word fraud so easily. I have attended many coin shows in my life time and seen coins that have problems and the dealer had no clue. All it takes to be a dealer is to call yourself one and sell some coins. You ought to listen to what Tom has said and be thankful he took the time to offer his thoughts. There is no fraud without intent.
[A person best know what they are doing before bidding. If there is a limited return policy, best to get the coin evaluated within that time. If a person doesn't know coins, and can't do that, don't bid. Let me repeat, don't bid, if you don't know your coins. If uncertain, ask before bidding, not after.
I may sound harsh, but I am tired of what I see as irresponsible folks wanting to be bailed out of their mistakes. I put 90% of the blame on the buyer. Posting it here after the fact, makes it worse in my mind, so move that to 110%.
Like I said in another thread, if a person doesn't want to do any work and doesn't want to learn about coins or grading, stick to moderns in mint packaging, or bullion related coins near melt value. Again, I hate to sound harsh, but no one forced anyone to bid or buy./i]
OK, Red Tiger, I'll bite. Whether or not "you know your coins," the seller has an obligation to describe the coin honestly. Yes? or No?
I am looking forward to the time when you get sandbagged by a seller who conceals the problems from you and then hides behind a technicality.
If you think that the experts never have this experience, then you didn't read the recent thread concerning the "felt pad treatment." The difference here is that a reputable seller will make it right, and that's the issue. Yes? No?
If you want to impress us all with your uncanny grading and coin trading expertise, why then are you rubbing someone's nose in it, in order to make yourself appear more knowledgeable? Learn a little humility, and you will be a better human being.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>On something like this, why not start a thread before you buy the coin and get opinions? I think it would have been overwhelming NOT to buy it. >>
You're right for the most part, but there's always the concern that if a coin really IS nice and looks like it's going for a steal, you're inviting competition to take it from you or make you pay more for it. >>
1. If it's really nice and a "steal" (interesting choice of words) would the happy buyer have to share his windfall with the seller if gets gets it graded PCGS PF66 and he makes 5 times what he paid for it?
2. Is it OK for a buyer to "steal" coins on ebay - or is there an issue of "honesty and integrity" for the buyer if he rips a coin for far less than it's real value?
3. Buying raw "bargains on ebay will invariable end as an attempted "steal" that didn't work.
4. Ebay Auctions are just that - Auctions" - they are not Approval sales! You buy it - you own it - unless you comply with the stated return policies. There are only a few exceptions to this rule and they will require proof of wrongdoing by the seller - usually an expensive proposition with little chance of prevailing
JMHO
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
The "homework" that I am writing about consists of- 1) Inspecting the coin closely upon arrival, which is something you admit you did not do. 2) Knowing what it is the coin should look like upon arrival without the need of additional opinions, or, if additional opinions would possibly be required, to have a mechanism in place to obtain those opinions within the stated return policy time frame, which is something you admit you neither planned on nor were willing to perform.
Advice well taken !
“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly."
My bid wasn't an attempt to steal anything. It was a bid.
I did buy a 2004 Platinum Proof Set for $2,000.00 not too long ago on a Buy-It-Now. The seller was liquidating his father-in-law's estate. I bought it immediately because the seller didn't know what the hell he had. I then voided the auction and educated him. He rewarded me by sending me a 1986 Statue of Liberty Proof Set. Now, THAT would have been a steal, if I had enforced the sale.
Now, back to this matter............it's a question of integrity. That's all it is. I don't think it's too much to ask for an honest description of the coin you are bidding on. His description said, Proof - no problem coin. It's pretty simple in my estimation. I did nothing wrong, other than being a little stupid. But I wasn't being deceitful, and I do believe that the seller was.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Look, whatever else might be going on here, the guy had a return policy, albeit a shortish one. It appears he was willing to stand behind his coin, and if you had returned it to him there is no readily evident reason to think you would not have been refunded. You now own the coin, and the guy does not have an obligation to you. If the coin were a counterfeit or something, it would be a different story.
Look, whatever else might be going on here, the guy had a return policy, albeit a shortish one. It appears he was willing to stand behind his coin, and if you had returned it to him there is no readily evident reason to think you would not have been refunded. You now own the coin, and the guy does not have an obligation to you. If the coin were a counterfeit or something, it would be a different story.
It's not a return policy issue. It's an integrity issue. The guy gave a description and an implied warranty when he said it was a "no problem coin." Not that a legal case would be worthwhile, because it wouldn't. The return policy has nothing to do with the description and the integrity issue.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Yeah, whatever. This thread started with an accusation of fraud and a question regarding getting the post office in on it, which would imply pressing some sort of charges.
So there's a seller out there who is *either* clueless about coins, *or* less than honorable, or both. OK. What's to be done about it? In this case, not much.
Comments
Makes perfect sence to me
If you are going to buy raw off e-bay you need to complete a course and become certified in coin dealing like I did.
I'd ask for a return. minus of course 10% restocking.
be sure to tell this seler he is on my do not do business with list.
Steve
Please post a photo of your new large cent so that we all may enjoy it.
<< <i>If you are going to buy raw off e-bay you need to complete a course and become certified in coin dealing like I did. >>
Russ, NCNE
For your infomation Russ I am a certified dealer and have the papers from this institution to prove it!
<< <i>For your infomation Russ I am a certified dealer and have the papers from this institution to prove it! >>
Gawd, you're killing me! Do you also have a mail order medical degree?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>you might consider taking responsibility for your buying it
I take full responsibility. It was sold as a "no problem" Proof coin. >>
Here's the Seller's return policy:
"Items have a 3 day return policy. If for any reason you are not happy with your purchase just send the item back as you recieved it and I'll refund your bid minus a 10% restocking fee which covers my listing fees and paypal fees."
<< <i>What would you do? Eat the loss on a bogus coin? >>
Looks like you may end up spending $225 for the "lesson" in this situation - you had 3 days to look at the coin and make a decision as to whether you wanted to keep it or return it. Apparently based on your initial feedback you believed it to be a "real" proof as apparently so did the seller. If you believed the coin was a real proof, what's to say that the Seller of that coin did not have the same mistaken belief that you had?
If it had graded PF66 and was worth $1000 would you have paid the Seller something extra or kept the profit for yourself? What you've learned is that aren't any Santa Clauses on ebay. What you might consider doing is buying a very good loupe (which is a lot less than $225) and learn the characteristics of real proof coins and the characteristics of whizzed/polished coins. If you're not willing to do that, then you shouldn't be buying raw coins on ebay. Unless you still have a return privilege it looks like you're going to have to chalk this up as an "educational expense"!
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>
<< <i>For your infomation Russ I am a certified dealer and have the papers from this institution to prove it! >>
Gawd, you're killing me! Do you also have a mail order medical degree?
Russ, NCNE >>
I do!
<< <i>What you've learned is that aren't any Santa Clauses on ebay. >>
Yes, there are. I've built my stash buying from him.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
Gawd, you're killing me! Do you also have a mail order medical degree?
Russ, NCNE >>
No, he went to Hollywood upstairs medical school. He and Dr. Nick were roommates.
Here's a pic. You think it's really a Proof?
Thanks for all the comments and advice. After this round of remarks, I gotta let it go. Regards, Jerry
Now I have to post that newp from the St. Louis Show.
I knew it would happen.
U.S. Nickels Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
U.S. Dimes Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
<< <i>
<< <i>What you've learned is that aren't any Santa Clauses on ebay. >>
Yes, there are. I've built my stash buying from him.
Russ, NCNE >>
How true Russ, BUT - you KNOW what you're doing and I'm sure you've paid your dues and made a "mistake" or two in the process. So perhaps I should edit my comment to sy:
There are no Santa Clauses on ebay UNLESS you know what you're doing, know how to grade coins and the supposed Santa Clause is not two steps ahead of you with his/her intended scam, for everyone else there are no Santa Clauses.
As for the purchaser of the whizzed/polished V Nickel I noted this comment:
<< <i>I think that the issue is honesty and trust, as much as it is knowing how to grade and evaluate coins. The photo looked like mirrored surfaces to me. The trust issue - I bought a $4,500.00 coin yesterday from Tom Reynolds, whom I trust. That trust was built up over a period of about 25 years, as I learned about the Large Cents that I was buying. Conversely, I will not buy a coin from Ron Knight ever again, and I would warn you not to, as well. >>
I would only say this: IF he has been collecting coins for 25 years asis implied by the fact that he has had a 25 year relationship with Tom Reynolds, then it is unfortunate that he hasn't learned how to grade and doesn't use a high quality loupe on the coins he buys. A Zeiss or Eschenbach loupe would have quickly revealed that the "proof" coin in question was "messed" with and he could have returned the coin and been out only the $30+ that TomB referenced. Anyone buying $4500 coins should: A) Own a good loupe,
To not to the do the above three things is asking to get skinned. A relatively cheap lesson IMHO. THis is NOT a question of Trust or Honesty. It is a question of prudence. Ebay is an auction. If you buy at auction, you own it, unless you comply with the terms of the auction. It's unfortunate that this happened and jmski52 now owns a coin of minimal value. In the long run it may be a chaep lesson - I doubt whether jmski52 will buy any $4500 coins on ebay.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Yes, and I actually do own a loupe, know how to use it, and know how to grade. And I admit my mistake - I wasn't paranoid, and I wasn't all over him from the get-go, like I should have been.
And yes. Lesson Learned. Absolutely. But also remember - if the guy was legit, he wouldn't have a problem making it right. Is that not also true?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>A) Own a good loupe,
Yes, and I actually do own a loupe, know how to use it, and know how to grade. And I admit my mistake - I wasn't paranoid, and I wasn't all over him from the get-go, like I should have been.
And yes. Lesson Learned. Absolutely. But also remember - if the guy was legit, he wouldn't have a problem making it right. Is that not also true? >>
I'm not sure I agree with this, put yourself in the sellers seat... How long was it between the time you won the auction and when you contacted the seller with the notion of return? As the seller, I'm thinking you just have buyers remorse and your tying to get your money back after a few weeks... The auction clearly states there is a retern period, it's your job as a buyer to evaluate the item and decide within that period... After that period, the seller is obsolved unless, he or she purposly listed a false auction.
Just my opinion, the seller did his job, you failed to do your job, now your trying to find a way to burn the seller, and get us to re-enforce your position.
hmmmmm.
But yes, I didn't do my job very well, and I admit that. On the other hand, I didn't have opportunity to get a professional opinion until yesterday. I didn't deem a $200 coin critical enough to start running back & forth 100 miles in each direction because I saw some hairlines.
Wanna buy the coin from me? Take a look at the pic and make me an offer. You know the history now.
I knew it would happen.
Steve
<< <i>No, Mr. Paseo, I would much rather keep the coin, since I bought it as a gift for someone. But not a processed coin sold as a genuine proof.
But yes, I didn't do my job very well, and I admit that. On the other hand, I didn't have opportunity to get a professional opinion until yesterday. I didn't deem a $200 coin critical enough to start running back & forth 100 miles in each direction because I saw some hairlines.
Wanna buy the coin from me? Take a look at the pic and make me an offer. You know the history now. >>
What a whizzed coin? No way wouldn't touch it...lol. Sorry I had to. Seriously I don't think the situation is funny and I realize I may have been a bit of an ass with my responses... sorry bout that.
Ray
I am getting a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth from thinking about this seller and this transaction. We're all big boys here. I made a mistake, and I understand it totally. I doubt that it'll happen to me again. This thread's been an education in and of itself.
I knew it would happen.
AL
An "estate" seller put up for auction a "problem-free" raw Bust half, AU. Photos looked good, so I bit.
Got the coin, and it was obviously whizzed, tooled and harshly cleaned. Major nose job with a dremel.
Contacted the seller that day, he stated "all sales are final - it's an estate".
I suggested a flight to Texas was not out of the question - the coin was obviously misrepresented and I would be happy to complain in person.
He replied that I could send him back the coin for a full refund, and to please not bid on any more of his auctions. I did so, he refunded the money, and I never looked at any more of his auctions.
See - diplomacy works
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
You gotta love this board.
siliconvalleycoins.com
Jmski52...based on the last pic you posted, I would say that the coin is definitely an impaired proof. The rims give it away (in addition to the strike etc.)
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>My own sloppiness shouldn't excuse the guy. The flip side to this is that I've had numerous very good experiences on ebay. It's not the venue that's the problem, it's only certain individuals, to be sure. >>
Buying raw coins is always risky and it was even more so when there were no TPG's around to at least allow people to buy sight unseen.
I recently returned a slabbed coin that I didn't like and the seller immediately refunded me.
When I say immediately I mean that his check arrived 3 days after receiving that coin back. I called him the same day that I received it and we talked it over and he said "unless you love it don't keep it". The coin in question is in a PCGS holder but I didn't like the strike while the color and lustre were fine or above average.
There are people in this world that value their reputation more than making a quick buck.
That said, however, the coin pictured is one I would never have purchased. Keep in mind that I have never purchased a Liberty Head nickel in my life and I know how easy it is to play the part of Cicero the Censor when discussing the experiences of others.
That coin just looks "wrong".
3 days to return a coin is not much.
If the coin is still in its original holder (to avoid the seller being able to claim that he had not received back the original coin back) then the question is why did you wait?
I hate being one of the people that tells you that the fault is mainly yours:
a) for having made a bid for that coin based on a crappy picture.
b) for having left positive feedback only to then change your mind
c) for not having sought expert opinions BEFORE leaving feedback as you indicate that you are not an expert as far as that kind of coin is concerned
d) for not having done research on his negatives and neutrals to see if the seller has a pattern of disputes for crappy merchandise (he does). I use http://www.toolhaus.org for that.
e) because you did not take account of the 3 day return limit to at least send him a Registered letter (or at the very least an email message) with an indication that you had some doubts/concerns about that coin.
That seller is a jerk in my opinion because a clean reputation is everything as far as I am concernd and he should have accepted the return even if the 3 days were long past.
Unfortunately, unless he has a conscience crisis, I fear you'll have to assign this one to the chapter called "experience" and leave it at that.
Keep that coin and frame it putting it in a place where you can see it when you surf on EBay. It will remind you to be more cautious next time.
Collecting since the 1980's
Morgan Dollars Circ. Strikes
- Basic Set - Varieties - Prooflike Basic Set - Date Set
- Carson City - Early S Mint Short Set - Mintmark Type Set
Morgan Dollars Proof
- Basic Set - Varieties
Peace Circ.
It's very possible the experienced seller has no clue. I always found in interesting that in my early days, most every B&M dealer in my area sold cleaned, polished, and screwed with coins as the real thing. It was as if they were blind to it. And I honestly believe most of them were since they rarely if ever saw good coins to compare against. Bright white Lib nickels were the rule. If those guys saw a nice orig toned one they'd dip and wipe it. And to my face they'd call those coins Gems, and believe it. Funny hobby.
roadrunner
<< <i>But yes, I didn't do my job very well, and I admit that. On the other hand, I didn't have opportunity to get a professional opinion until yesterday. I didn't deem a $200 coin critical enough to start running back & forth 100 miles in each direction because I saw some hairlines. >>
Again, this relates back to your motivation for buying a raw coin with a three-day return period that was to expire several weeks before you could get a professional opinion on the coin, which it appears you believed you needed, and leaves me scratching my head as to why you would ever have bid if you required such assurance or knowledge. Since the coin and the money involved weren't critical enough to do your homework, why are they now critical enough to wonder how you might retaliate against the seller?
If the coin has as many hairlines as you state then it is likely a cleaned proof. Might this have been missed by the seller? It's certainly possible. Would I consider that a crime, fraud or an ebay expulsion offense? Not at all. Would a responsible buyer have used the three-day return period to resolve this scenario? Absolutely. Truly, I am not finding you a sympathetic victim in this case.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
If the coin has as many hairlines as you state then it is likely a cleaned proof. Might this have been missed by the seller? It's certainly possible. Would I consider that a crime, fraud or an ebay expulsion offense? Not at all. Would a responsible buyer have used the three-day return period to resolve this scenario? Absolutely. Truly, I am not finding you a sympathetic victim in this case
Tom, if you are intent on being critical of my blunder, I urge you to consider that the guy stated it was a "no problem" Proof coin. My motivation was to buy a nice looking piece as a present. Exactly what "homework" would you have done before the coin was in hand? You question MY motivation? Geez! Frankly, I didn't think I'd even need another opinion on the coin when I bid for it. I don't care where you buy a coin, if the seller misrepresents a coin, YOU would give him the benefit of the doubt. Thanks, I'll remember where you're coming from - if I have occasion to deal with you, I won't.
I knew it would happen.
I agree with ski52. It amazes me how some of you guys blame the buyers. Some of us are not as good in grading/authenticating and TAKE peoples words. Are we gullable? possibly. The fact of the matter is that it is very difficult to grade a coin thru a scan. Some of us rely on the written word. I guess we should all assume that sellers of raw coins on ebay are all FOS.
Steve
I always believe what I read on ebay, too!
On something like this, why not start a thread before you buy the coin and get opinions? I think it would have been overwhelming NOT to buy it.
<< <i>
For your infomation Russ I am a certified dealer and have the papers from this institution to prove it! >>
PbFloyd, you cannot be serious about this, right?
<< <i>
<< <i>What you've learned is that aren't any Santa Clauses on ebay. >>
Yes, there are. I've built my stash buying from him.
Russ, NCNE >>
There are some coin dealers that LOOK like Santa Claus:
<< <i>If the coin has as many hairlines as you state then it is likely a cleaned proof. Might this have been missed by the seller? It's certainly possible. Would I consider that a crime, fraud or an ebay expulsion offense? Not at all. Would a responsible buyer have used the three-day return period to resolve this scenario? Absolutely. >>
The "homework" that I am writing about consists of-
1) Inspecting the coin closely upon arrival, which is something you admit you did not do.
2) Knowing what it is the coin should look like upon arrival without the need of additional opinions, or, if additional opinions would possibly be required, to have a mechanism in place to obtain those opinions within the stated return policy time frame, which is something you admit you neither planned on nor were willing to perform.
These are two points that one should always adhere to with respect to a numismatic transaction, regardless if the coin is slabbed or raw, purchased from ebay, an established dealer website or in person on the bourse floor or at a shop.
I don't give a seller the general benefit of the doubt, just as I do not give a buyer sympathy for entering into a transaction without having prepared beforehand. Please see points one and two, above, if you are wondering what preparation I am writing about in this statement. My observations on this thread are that the seller is someone I would not have purchased from given the restocking fee listed in the auction and that you were in no way prepared to consumate this transaction within the parameters of the auction listing. Therefore, I am not writing that the seller is a swell guy and should be admired for his spotless business practices, but I am commenting on your approach to the trasaction. Lastly, this is nothing personal.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>On something like this, why not start a thread before you buy the coin and get opinions? I think it would have been overwhelming NOT to buy it. >>
You're right for the most part, but there's always the concern that if a coin really IS nice and looks like it's going for a steal, you're inviting competition to take it from you or make you pay more for it.
<< <i> I guess we should all assume that sellers of raw coins on ebay are all FOS. >>
Actually, that is a pretty good assumption. Any raw coin over $100 in numismatic value is suspect. Any heavily counterfeited coin such as Trade dollars, most key date coins, or any small denomination gold coins are suspect. A person best know what they are doing before bidding. If there is a limited return policy, best to get the coin evaluated within that time. If a person doesn't know coins, and can't do that, don't bid. Let me repeat, don't bid, if you don't know your coins. If uncertain, ask before bidding, not after.
I may sound harsh, but I am tired of what I see as irresponsible folks wanting to be bailed out of their mistakes. I put 90% of the blame on the buyer. Posting it here after the fact, makes it worse in my mind, so move that to 110%.
Like I said in another thread, if a person doesn't want to do any work and doesn't want to learn about coins or grading, stick to moderns in mint packaging, or bullion related coins near melt value. Again, I hate to sound harsh, but no one forced anyone to bid or buy. There are tons of overgraded, problem coins out there. These coins are out there in every venue, Ebay, auctions, magazine ads, every coin show bourse. Some of these coins are offered at what seem like bargain prices. Some sellers will say almost anything to get a sale. Some of these "gems" are described as premium quality, super-duper, elite coins, when they are complete garbage, or in the worst cases even counterfeit. The uneducated new collector looking for a "bargain," is how many of the sellers stay in business.
/edit typos
1) Inspecting the coin closely upon arrival, which is something you admit you did not do.
2) Knowing what it is the coin should look like upon arrival without the need of additional opinions, or, if additional opinions would possibly be required, to have a mechanism in place to obtain those opinions within the stated return policy time frame, which is something you admit you neither planned on nor were willing to perform.
/i]
Thank you for your mind-numbing insights. Exactly, what were the written and implied threats that you allude to? Oh, yeah, nothing personal.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>I'm not worried about the possibility of dealing with you, so you may leave the written and implied threats out of the conversation. >>
That was to respond to your statement-
<< <i>Thanks, I'll remember where you're coming from - if I have occasion to deal with you, I won't. >>
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>What you've learned is that aren't any Santa Clauses on ebay. >>
Yes, there are. I've built my stash buying from him.
Russ, NCNE >>
There are some coin dealers that LOOK like Santa Claus:
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I may sound harsh, but I am tired of what I see as irresponsible folks wanting to be bailed out of their mistakes. I put 90% of the blame on the buyer. Posting it here after the fact, makes it worse in my mind, so move that to 110%.
Like I said in another thread, if a person doesn't want to do any work and doesn't want to learn about coins or grading, stick to moderns in mint packaging, or bullion related coins near melt value. Again, I hate to sound harsh, but no one forced anyone to bid or buy./i]
OK, Red Tiger, I'll bite. Whether or not "you know your coins," the seller has an obligation to describe the coin honestly. Yes? or No?
I am looking forward to the time when you get sandbagged by a seller who conceals the problems from you and then hides behind a technicality.
If you think that the experts never have this experience, then you didn't read the recent thread concerning the "felt pad treatment." The difference here is that a reputable seller will make it right, and that's the issue. Yes? No?
If you want to impress us all with your uncanny grading and coin trading expertise, why then are you rubbing someone's nose in it, in order to make yourself appear more knowledgeable? Learn a little humility, and you will be a better human being.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>On something like this, why not start a thread before you buy the coin and get opinions? I think it would have been overwhelming NOT to buy it. >>
You're right for the most part, but there's always the concern that if a coin really IS nice and looks like it's going for a steal, you're inviting competition to take it from you or make you pay more for it. >>
1. If it's really nice and a "steal" (interesting choice of words) would the happy buyer have to share his windfall with the seller if gets gets it graded PCGS PF66 and he makes 5 times what he paid for it?
2. Is it OK for a buyer to "steal" coins on ebay - or is there an issue of "honesty and integrity" for the buyer if he rips a coin for far less than it's real value?
3. Buying raw "bargains on ebay will invariable end as an attempted "steal" that didn't work.
4. Ebay Auctions are just that - Auctions" - they are not Approval sales! You buy it - you own it - unless you comply with the stated return policies. There are only a few exceptions to this rule and they will require proof of wrongdoing by the seller - usually an expensive proposition with little chance of prevailing
JMHO
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
1) Inspecting the coin closely upon arrival, which is something you admit you did not do.
2) Knowing what it is the coin should look like upon arrival without the need of additional opinions, or, if additional opinions would possibly be required, to have a mechanism in place to obtain those opinions within the stated return policy time frame, which is something you admit you neither planned on nor were willing to perform.
Advice well taken !
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
I did buy a 2004 Platinum Proof Set for $2,000.00 not too long ago on a Buy-It-Now. The seller was liquidating his father-in-law's estate. I bought it immediately because the seller didn't know what the hell he had. I then voided the auction and educated him. He rewarded me by sending me a 1986 Statue of Liberty Proof Set. Now, THAT would have been a steal, if I had enforced the sale.
Now, back to this matter............it's a question of integrity. That's all it is. I don't think it's too much to ask for an honest description of the coin you are bidding on. His description said, Proof - no problem coin. It's pretty simple in my estimation. I did nothing wrong, other than being a little stupid. But I wasn't being deceitful, and I do believe that the seller was.
I knew it would happen.
It's not a return policy issue. It's an integrity issue. The guy gave a description and an implied warranty when he said it was a "no problem coin." Not that a legal case would be worthwhile, because it wouldn't. The return policy has nothing to do with the description and the integrity issue.
I knew it would happen.
So there's a seller out there who is *either* clueless about coins, *or* less than honorable, or both. OK. What's to be done about it? In this case, not much.