I got my first bodybag and I'm IRKED!!

Newb · February 3, 2007 2:13AM

Some of you may remember the story of how my Grandad saved Morgans and Peaces from his country store in an empty lard bucket. If you don't, that's fine. But this is one of those Morgans and PCGS just called it cleaned.

Now, what's the timeline on a cleaned coin? Because I never cleaned it, my Dad never cleaned it, and it's HIGHLY unlikely that my Grandad, who died in 1955, ever cleaned it. The guy that throws coins in a lard bucket isn't the guy that cleans them. This thing has been in my Dad's safe for at least 30 years, and in an old yellowed coin tube before that. It's clean, but not cleaned. It's a prime example of a piece snatched out of circulation around the late 30's to early 40's and put to bed for the last 60 odd years.

When I pulled this out of the safe last summer I told my Dad, "Dang...it's a shame this has been cleaned". He's not a collector, but he almost took offense that I would even suggest it. He shot back, "NONE of those coins has ever been cleaned!" Now, I'm still a Newb, so fooling me into thinking it was cleaned is easy, but the guys at PCGS are supposed to be able to tell the difference between a nice original UNC gem and a cleaned one, right?

I'm mad about this, even though I have no plans of selling his stuff anytime soon, and it's not a key date. Sure I can resubmit, or get a review, but the point is, what criteria do they use to say it's been cleaned? The fact that there's no "gook" in between the denticles? That it looks "too good"??

Why did I submit in the first place? I had some well worn Morgans that I sent in for kicks (got my first PO01!) and wanted to see what this would go.

And of course I realize that a pic won't give you the true impression, but it's pretty darn close to it.

DUIGUY · February 3, 2007 2:20AM

The thrill of VICTORY ! The AGONY of defeat ! Both will be experienced in this hobby.

Sorry about the BB, submit again .

cohocorp · February 3, 2007 2:21AM

looks great to me, but i am not a professional grader of course. sorry to hear it.

Shamika · February 3, 2007 2:24AM

Sure doens't look cleaned to me. Sorry about the BB.

dragon · February 3, 2007 2:25AM

<<< It's a prime example of a piece snatched out of circulation around the late 30's to early 40's and put to bed for the last 60 odd years. NONE of those coins has ever been cleaned!" >>>

Going from that pic, I would disagree,

edited to add: ......and I would not resubmit that one

topstuf · February 3, 2007 2:29AM

Ah, but look again at the 17th breast feather. Could that not be a trace of HARSH ABRASIVE CLEANING? Oh wait, it's the 18th feather. About .05 microns in from the edge. There! See???
OBVIOUSLY time to resubmit with more fees. Just to be sure.

Baley · February 3, 2007 2:29AM

Ok, I'm going to try to be gentle, but here's my thoughts: It's a common coin in a common grade, looks MS62 maybe 63 on a good day. It has a beautiful strike and a gorgeous reverse but the cheek is a mess and the obverse fields and rims are marked. Now as far as "cleaned", if it was "snatched out of circulation" then it may have had a wipe or two at some point, leaving traces of rub. For education, tilt and rotate the coin under a good light and look for hairlines. these can be the result not of intentional cleaning but merely wiping off with a cloth. At any rate, I do not recommend you "submit again" but instead have Zen and learn from this, and consider why you would want your grandad's coins locked away in plastic instead of free to touch anyway.

ziggy29 · February 3, 2007 2:32AM

<< Why did I submit in the first place? I had some well worn Morgans that I sent in for kicks (got my first PO01!) and wanted to see what this would go. >>

As long as you realize that you're paying quite a bit to slab a coin that would have been worth about $40 had it made 63. From a strictly financial standpoint this one isn't worth slabbing anyway.

TorinoCobra71 · February 3, 2007 2:36AM

<< 

<< Why did I submit in the first place? I had some well worn Morgans that I sent in for kicks (got my first PO01!) and wanted to see what this would go. >>

As long as you realize that you're paying quite a bit to slab a coin that would have been worth about $40 had it made 63. From a strictly financial standpoint this one isn't worth slabbing anyway. >>

Not everyone slabs a coin from a FINANCIAL standpoint. Some people have different reasons. I got a buddy that has to have ALL of his Morgans in PCGS plastic, or he doesnt own them......What is Russ' saying on the re-submission thing?

TorinoCobra71

fcloud · February 3, 2007 2:37AM

Just because you know of no history of cleaning, doesn't mean it wasn't cleaned before it was spent. You admit being a newbe and thought it was cleaned. Apparently your gut reaction was probably right.

Newb · February 3, 2007 2:42AM

<< 

<< 

<< Why did I submit in the first place? I had some well worn Morgans that I sent in for kicks (got my first PO01!) and wanted to see what this would go. >>

As long as you realize that you're paying quite a bit to slab a coin that would have been worth about $40 had it made 63. From a strictly financial standpoint this one isn't worth slabbing anyway. >>

Not everyone slabs a coin from a FINANCIAL standpoint. Some people have different reasons. I got a buddy that has to have ALL of his Morgans in PCGS plastic, or he doesnt own them......What is Russ' saying on the re-submission thing?

TorinoCobra71 >>

Exactly, Torino...I said in my OP I knew what it was...I was trying out my grading eye, besides being bored to tears with submitting all this modern crap.

notwilight · February 3, 2007 2:44AM

Rotate it in the light. If you can see hairlines, then it has been cleaned. Little old ladies with their silver polishing cloths wouldn't have been above polishing up a coin, even when it was new. Hairlines sometimes show in a photo, sometimes don't.

Don't get caught up in the "my coin has hairlines so it is worthless phobia". If I liked morgans I'd say it is still a beautiful coin.

--Jerry

dragon · February 3, 2007 2:52AM

You don't need to rotate it or anything else, and it doesn't necessarily need to show hairlines either, just look at it's overall appearance at first glance.

notwilight · February 3, 2007 2:55AM

<< You don't need to rotate it or anything else, and it doesn't necessarily need to show hairlines either, just look at it's overall appearance at first glance. >>

If you think it's been dipped, that's a different story. BB for cleaned generally means "harshly cleaned" which generally means hairlines. Are you speaking of something else?

Burks · February 3, 2007 2:56AM

I like the coin, cleaned or not. The reverse is really nice.

Too bad it got bodybagged. Congrats on the PO01 though.

Newb · February 3, 2007 2:57AM

<< Rotate it in the light. If you can see hairlines, then it has been cleaned. Little old ladies with their silver polishing cloths wouldn't have been above polishing up a coin, even when it was new. Hairlines sometimes show in a photo, sometimes don't.

Don't get caught up in the "my coin has hairlines so it is worthless phobia". If I liked morgans I'd say it is still a beautiful coin.

--Jerry >>

Oh, I'm not - it's gorgeous and you should love Morgans.

But I did examine it very closely under 5x, having absorbed as much knowledge from this board by looking at pics of submissions and reading about cleaning BB's, and so on. And to no avail.

It's not about the coin, it's about the standards. I've seen cleaned coins - unnatural luster and hairlines smack me in the face now. Thanks to this board, my eye has improved tremendously. I almost reneged on a Saint a few weeks ago because of some MINUTE hairlines until the dealer said he would refund my money if PCGS BB'd it. My first Saint that I picked up raw a few months ago went 65 at PCGS. I went through dozens to find it. My eye is dialed in.

If they call this cleaned, then I'm really confused now.

mirabela · February 3, 2007 2:59AM

That is one of the most common Morgan dollars, and in very ordinary uncirculated condition -- MS63 tops, certainly not a Gem or close to it. It does not look cleaned to me, but trying to get this coin in plastic is just throwing away good money. I understand it is sometimes nice to have something around for the sake of calibration, i.e. "I think this is MSxx, let's see what PCGS thinks," but it would make more sense to go to a show and look at a lot of slabbed coins, or order a PCGS Morgan in 63 for $35-40 from any of hundreds of places -- that way you'd have the company's opinion and two coins, not just one. This is not a worthless coins, but slabbing it is very much a waste of money.

Newb · February 3, 2007 3:01AM

<< 

<< You don't need to rotate it or anything else, and it doesn't necessarily need to show hairlines either, just look at it's overall appearance at first glance. >>

If you think it's been dipped, that's a different story. BB for cleaned generally means "harshly cleaned" which generally means hairlines. Are you speaking of something else? >>

Exactly - I think they think it's been dipped because it's so clean. It hasn't been dipped - at least not in the last 50 years, and probably not before that. But regardless, I thought I read here that PCGS wouldn't BB a coin for a dip?

Newb · February 3, 2007 3:04AM

<< That is one of the most common Morgan dollars, and in very ordinary uncirculated condition -- MS63 tops, certainly not a Gem or close to it. It does not look cleaned to me, but trying to get this coin in plastic is just throwing away good money. I understand it is sometimes nice to have something around for the sake of calibration, i.e. "I think this is MSxx, let's see what PCGS thinks," but it would make more sense to go to a show and look at a lot of slabbed coins, or order a PCGS Morgan in 63 for $35-40 from any of hundreds of places -- that way you'd have the company's opinion and two coins, not just one. This is not a worthless coins, but slabbing it is very much a waste of money. >>

I know all that, and I'd waste more $ in gas driving around to shows than I would throwing it in with a submission that was already going. We're talking $18, for crying out loud.

dragon · February 3, 2007 3:10AM

<<< Exactly - I think they think it's been dipped because it's so clean. It hasn't been dipped - at least not in the last 50 years, and probably not before that. But regardless, I thought I read here that PCGS wouldn't BB a coin for a dip? >>>

That's correct, PCGS typically won't bag a dipped out Morgan unless it's really really bad. This coin however is more then just a dip.

Newb · February 3, 2007 3:21AM

<< At any rate, I do not recommend you "submit again" but instead have Zen and learn from this, and consider why you would want your grandad's coins locked away in plastic instead of free to touch anyway. >>

I have no plans to resubmit - it's not about the coin, but the process.

And as far as being locked away, I can always fondle the other 200+ Morgans and Peaces that are raw and will remain raw.

Why is it that so many people feel the need to question the reason or necessity of a submission? That wasn't the intent of the OP and I even knew the question would arise and addressed it pre-emptively.

Newb · February 3, 2007 3:25AM

<< This coin however is more then just a dip. >>

Elaborate, please.

BobaFett72 · February 3, 2007 3:30AM

i like the coin, doesnt looked cleaned.

dragon · February 3, 2007 3:32AM

<<< Elaborate, please. >>>

Ok Newb.....I'll assume your pic is pretty accurate, do you see how that coin has no original hot and cold spots to the lustre and not even a trace of toning or original dirt? Also see how the overall appearance of the coin is a bland one dimensional greyish silver and how the original skin looks stripped away? Had that been an original unmessed with coin (especially for that date) it wouldn't look like that.

DUIGUY · February 3, 2007 4:03AM

Here is a blast white PCGS example. Even with Teletrade pics it is possible to make out the differance in texture between devices and fields.

jabba · February 3, 2007 4:09AM

put it in a taco bell napkin then resubmit, seriously coin look's ok to me???

Newb · February 3, 2007 4:29AM

<< Here is a blast white PCGS example. Even with Teletrade pics it is possible to make out the differance in texture between devices and fields. >>

And you're saying you can't on my coin?? Must be my monitor.

To all the folks who say it doesn't look cleaned, I think you're right. It MAY have had a dip a VERY long time ago (who was dipping common Morgans decades ago and what were they using??) and was then put into the safe, but it hasn't been "cleaned", no matter what PCGS says. They aren't all-knowing Gods - the screwups on my orders over the past few months will attest to that. I think the coin looks too "pretty", and they assume it's cleaned. They're wrong.

Many people said PCGS was wrong when they gave my 1908NM a 65. If they were wrong then, they can be wrong now.

No biggie - I'll just submit modern crap from here on out.

I appreciate all the thoughts.

Newb · February 3, 2007 4:31AM

<< put it in a taco bell napkin then resubmit, seriously coin look's ok to me??? >>

LOL I've got some crap in a Taco Bell napkin and it's not doing squat. Time for some match heads I guess.

MadMarty · February 3, 2007 4:38AM

All I can say is..

If the grade don't fit, you must resubmit!!!

dragon · February 3, 2007 4:39AM

<<< To all the folks who say it doesn't look cleaned, I think you're right. It MAY have had a dip a VERY long time ago (who was dipping common Morgans decades ago and what were they using??) and was then put into the safe, but it hasn't been "cleaned", no matter what PCGS says. They aren't all-knowing Gods - the screwups on my orders over the past few months will attest to that. I think the coin looks too "pretty", and they assume it's cleaned. They're wrong. >>

Ok, if you say so.

VintageJeff · February 3, 2007 4:46AM

Why give this guy such a hard time. Is it THAT hard to believe that they made a mistake or that it hasn't been cleaned?

Rollerman · February 3, 2007 4:51AM

The coin does have a look to it that indicates a mild cleaning or more likely a good rubbing with a hankerchief, or perhaps one of those treated cloths people used for silverware (were they around 40/50 years ago? I think they were). As I look at the obverse, the device has a bright, yet smoothed look to most of the high spots on the hair, cotton blossoms etc.
I don't doubt that no one in your family cleaned it, but someone might have before they took a trip to the store with it.
Were it not to have that "look" I would grade it a 63 as many others have indicated also.
I hope you can enjoy it for what it is, a piece of family history. You might just buy one of those plastic holders at your local coin store and keep it that way?
Best wishes,
Pete

clw54 · February 3, 2007 4:55AM

What is the solution used for dipping and did they have it back then? If so, did people use it for coins?

Russ · February 3, 2007 5:10AM

<< All I can say is..

If the grade don't fit, you must resubmit!!! >>

Think up your own stuff, nimrod.

Russ, NCNE

Newb · February 3, 2007 5:12AM

<< The coin does have a look to it that indicates a mild cleaning or more likely a good rubbing with a hankerchief, or perhaps one of those treated cloths people used for silverware (were they around 40/50 years ago? I think they were). As I look at the obverse, the device has a bright, yet smoothed look to most of the high spots on the hair, cotton blossoms etc.
I don't doubt that no one in your family cleaned it, but someone might have before they took a trip to the store with it.
Were it not to have that "look" I would grade it a 63 as many others have indicated also.
I hope you can enjoy it for what it is, a piece of family history. You might just buy one of those plastic holders at your local coin store and keep it that way?
Best wishes,
Pete >>

Thanks Pete. As I said, it's questions about the grading process, not the coin. This one and it's many sisters are staying put for a good while.

I'm on my laptop now instead of my desktop and it looks like a different coin. I might take some more pics when it gets back.

ARCO · February 3, 2007 5:13AM

Your coin looks nice. Peruse any auction site and you will find far uglier, washed out and repeatedly dipped coins in the top TPG holders. It might help to go through a series of superstitious rituals before sending coins in for grading. It probably helps as much as understanding how some obviously cleaned coins get graded and others not by the "respected" TPGS.

Tyler

Newb · February 3, 2007 5:17AM

<< Your coin looks nice. Peruse any auction site and you will find far uglier, washed out and repeatedly dipped coins in the top TPG holders. It might help to go through a series of superstitious rituals before sending coins in for grading. It probably helps as much as understanding how some obviously cleaned coins get graded and others not by the "respected" TPGS.

Tyler >>

Well said, and agreed.

I'll break out the mojo bag next time.

roadrunner · February 3, 2007 5:20AM

I agree with Dragon. The color is so uniform and luster is not on the high points as it should be (such as the hair).

roadrunner

DUIGUY · February 3, 2007 5:23AM

<<<<<And you're saying you can't on my coin?? Must be my monitor. >>>>>

Simply ment what Rollerman has pointed out.

<<<I don't doubt that no one in your family cleaned it, but someone might have before they took a trip to the store with it.
Were it not to have that "look" I would grade it a 63 as many others have indicated also.>>>

classiccoin · February 4, 2007 3:40PM

that coin was cleaned.. try and deal with facts newb and dont live in fantasyland

BlindedByEgo · February 4, 2007 4:20PM

Grader got up on the wrong side of the bed.

If you want it in plastic just as a keepsake (which is what I thought that your intention was), just send it to ANACS.

OTOH, if you are persistant like Russ, it should only take 2 more submissions or so to get it into a 63 holder.

BRdude · February 4, 2007 4:23PM

Have to agree with Dragon on this one. Doesn't mean i think it should have been BB'd though. Seen a lot worse in holders. just enjoy it, and the rest

TwoSides2aCoin · February 4, 2007 5:52PM

next time send a get well card and a check for twenty dollars in to pcgs.

To:
PCGS
c/o Grading Room
Re: Charity (don't send the coin, just the card and check.... they'll get the message

) and you'll feel better, too !

basestealer · February 4, 2007 6:19PM

The coin doesn't look dipped to me. It looks polished. That being said, it very well could have been polished before your grandad got ahold of it. I don't even think they had dips back then, but if it were dipped you probably couldn't tell after all this time, and it wouldn't have made those abrasive marks all over it. I do believe polishing coins was commonplace back then--even meseums back then polished coins to keep them shiny, until numismatists said "oh my god, what are you doing?". So it circulated a bit amongst god knows who, before it was taken out of circulation, and any of those people might have scraped it with a polishing cloth.

Connecticoin · February 4, 2007 8:46PM

That coin likely got bagged for hairlines. If the OP were to examine the coin under a halogen light and tilt it, any hairlines would show up. PCGS will still holder the coin with only a few hairlines, but a moderate amount (usually wiping hairlines from a cloth) will get it bagged. This coin may be on the cusp of tolerable hairlines.

If the coin has sentimental value, I would just put it in nice capital plastics or interecept shield holder and stash it.

srkjkd · February 4, 2007 8:49PM

when i first looked at it, i didn't think it looked cleaned either. after reading everyone's comments, i think i understand where you see the cleaning evidence...is it in relationship of fields to devices , especially noticeable on the obverse due to the uniformity of date to field to lower liberty (in reference to color uniformity) and on the reverse on the legend field and rim (color uniformity)? please let me now if that is it. learning is paramount in numismatics so i greatly appreciate your sharing of knowledge. in reference to dips...even the early american copper collectors would publish formulas for dip solutions in thier journals, so that has been around since mid or late 1800's at least. thank you again for sharing your coin with us.

kieferscoins · February 4, 2007 10:17PM

<< guy that throws coins in a lard bucket isn't the guy that cleans them. >>

Was this a lard bucket coin?

Cameron Kiefer

Jcarney · February 4, 2007 10:36PM

<< The coin does have a look to it that indicates a mild cleaning or more likely a good rubbing with a hankerchief, >>

If that coin had been "rubbed with a handkerchief", I'd expect to see hairlines. There's no way anyone can say that coin looks dipped/cleaned from the photo. Anyone who says they can is blowing smoke. Whatever PCGS thinks they saw on that coin either isn't visible on that pic or isn't there at all.

eyoung429 · February 4, 2007 10:42PM

I know this isn't the point but, after reading about your inheritance....why didn't you submit a more worthy coin? Surely you must have a non-common date/key in that group.....out of 200 Morgan/Peace why submit a common one such as that?

seemyauction · February 5, 2007 6:07AM

And that's why I don't send them in.......

AL

lkenefic · February 5, 2007 6:23AM

FWIW... I can tell if there are hairlines on it (ie...from what I can see it doesn't look cleaned). However, as others have suggested it's a fairly common date in low MS condition (63 seems about right). If you really want it in plastic...buy an Airtite...L

I got my first bodybag and I'm IRKED!!

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