I Got Stacks'ed™ (old thread updated)

RYK · February 1, 2007 5:06AM

I hesitate to post this, and I will go on record for saying upfront that I take full responsibility. Here goes...

I was uber-excited about the Cinclair Family Collection of gold coins that was being offered by Stack's in the Americana sale, allegedly a 150 year old family owned collection of gold coins that was put away in 1854 and left undisturbed since. (I have since heard speculation that this was part of another better-known hoard, but that story is for another day.) The archetypal Fresh Collection™, right?

Well, I bid on several of these raw gold pieces and was outbid on every single one the night of the sale. I was disappointed, but I had another iron in the fire and will likely end up with one or two of the better, crusty pieces. The next morning, I rechecked my bids and lo and behold, I was now the winner of Lot 5102 at my max bid. Judging how poorly the other classic head half eagles sold, I knew that I was in trouble.

A couple days later, I spoke with a trusted dealer, who viewed the collection, and told me that these were some very tricky coins to assess. Many of them were hairlines, but you could only see them at a certain angle to the light.

Well, the coin finally arrived, and, sure enough, the coin is hairlined, but you can only see them at a certain angle to the light source. The photo on the website was taken at a fortuitous angle in which no hairlines can be seen, but, in retrospect, there are other signs of an old cleaning. I have some coins to submit to PCGS, and I will throw this one in with the group. I think it has a better than even chance of grading, but this coin is definitely not a keeper for me.

The old ANR would not have offered such a piece, and if they did, there would have been a warning like "personal inspection recommended", which signals us home-gamers to not to bid on it.

Again, I am not blaming Stack's for my overeagerness and hubris in bidding on such a coin. I broke the rules and got spanked for it. I can guarantee that it will not happen again.

Edited to correct link to coin.

Barndog · February 1, 2007 5:14AM

thanks for sharing that lesson: use a Trusted Agent™ if you can't be there in person (for Stack's, Heritage, Superior, Johnny's Bid Board, whomever)

tradedollarnut · February 1, 2007 5:15AM

So - you bid online on a raw coin off an auction image with no professional in person inspection?

There's a lesson in there somewhere.

mhammerman · February 1, 2007 5:20AM

Yepper, got a little spankie myself last week on a classic half that I lept upon instead of creepin' up on. Only rule here is don't make the same mistake twice...there are plenty of different ones to try. My fare is the more common P mint but if you were hunting the D or C stoppers, I'm sure you are not happy.

This whole series (HA-all 7 of them) is leaving a bad taste in my mouth...if it just wasn't such a cool series of coins, I would just move on! If anyone else is watchin' this thread...go easy with these, there are plenty of things to watch for and the lessons aren't particularly cheap.

RYK · February 1, 2007 5:22AM

I just received an email from Stack's, and apparently my bidding limit for the next sale is about two and a half times what it used to be.

Longacre · February 1, 2007 5:25AM

<< I just received an email from Stack's, and apparently my bidding limit for the next sale is about two and a half times what it used to be.

>>

I won't make any comments!

PS. My guess is that it will grade at PCGS. Make sure you update us when you get the results.

Unknown · February 1, 2007 5:32AM

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DoctorPaper · February 1, 2007 5:38AM

The massive dies breaks esp. the one on the reverse are very interesting.

MrEureka · February 1, 2007 5:38AM

Why not just return it?

AU58WALKERS · February 1, 2007 5:45AM

<< Why not just return it? >>

HUGE restocking fee?

ziggy29 · February 1, 2007 5:46AM

<< I just received an email from Stack's, and apparently my bidding limit for the next sale is about two and a half times what it used to be.

>>

So maybe the first hit's not ALWAYS free. It just comes at a lower price.

WinPitcher · February 1, 2007 5:52AM

It amazes me how so many of you folk just chalk it up when you get burned as a learning experience! We should demand more of sellers. Especially Stacks who should no better.

No wonder I continually leave this hobby with a bad taste in my mouth.

I read in another thread that if a buyer gets burned he /she prolly deserved it. That they were lazy or ignorant or some other stupid reason.

Only in this hobby can you get ripped off and it is considered business as usual.

Buying a problem coin that you have no idea as to the problem is more fraud like IMO then business as usual.

Now if the seller expalins the faults and a person still wants it for whatever reason then i see no problem.

I think many coin collectors have been burned so many times that they are just numb to it now and accept it as part of the hobby.

BS I say.

Steve

dragon · February 1, 2007 5:53AM

Shame on the auction company for not properly describing the coin and mentioning the coin was hairlined probably the result of an old cleaning, especially since this is rather common for gold coins from that era.

Now that the internet and sight unseen bidding is commonplace and a significant percentage of their business, the major auction companies should have a definate responsibility to accurately describe any problems on a coin which may not be readily apparent in their online pics and especially so for raw coins.

If it was me, I would call them and tell them the coin is hairlined and was not mentioned in their description, and that I wanted to return it for a full refund including shipping. Internet bidders have a right to get a coin and not be disappointed with it IMO.

Barry · February 1, 2007 6:01AM

<< So - you bid online on a raw coin off an auction image with no professional in person inspection?

There's a lesson in there somewhere.

>>

Robert,
Have you been drinking? You have more than enough experience to know:
1. If it's raw there's a reason for it.
2. Even if it's slabbed, that doesn't mean squat and you should have had someone evaluate it for you.

Send it back, even if there is a restocking fee. You're never going to like the coin, and if it is hairlined, you know it's not going to grade.

Stop acting like a newbie!

and

I just received an email from Stack's, and apparently my bidding limit for the next sale is about two and a half times what it used to be.

They think they have a sucker hooked now...

IGWT · February 1, 2007 6:09AM

Why not just return it?

Precisely. Terms of sale: "Mail, FAX and Internet bidders may make return requests within three days of the receipt of the lot. Coins must be returned to Stack’s offices in Wolfeboro, N.H. within 30 days from the date of the auction. Any coin which has been physically altered or removed from its container or holder shall not be returnable nor accepted by Stack’s."

Get on the horn and return the coin.

Longacre · February 1, 2007 6:09AM

I was going to suggest that you return it, but then I assumed that it was not possible. Did you check the terms of service to see if it is allowed? I remember posting a thread about returns and auctions, so now I need to dig up the Stack's terms and see what options are available.

IGWT · February 1, 2007 6:10AM

Day late and dollar short, Longacre.

mozin · February 1, 2007 6:10AM

<< Shame on the auction company for not properly describing the coin and mentioning the coin was hairlined probably the result of an old cleaning, especially since this is rather common for gold coins from that era.

Now that the internet and sight unseen bidding is commonplace and a significant percentage of their business, the major auction companies should have a definate responsibility to accurately describe any problems on a coin which may not be readily apparent in their online pics and especially so for raw coins.

If it was me, I would call them and tell them the coin is hairlined and was not mentioned in their description, and that I wanted to return it for a full refund including shipping. Internet bidders have a right to get a coin and not be disappointed with it IMO. >>

As usual, some CU member posts cater to the dealers.

RBinTex · February 1, 2007 6:19AM

Why shouldn't you blame them? If they could tell it was hairlined they should have DISCLOSED THAT FACT!

Longacre · February 1, 2007 6:26AM

Here are the terms of sale. Note that there are different ones for NY sales. There is a provision that they make no representations as to whether a coin is cleaned or not. It also looks like there are no returns, but I need to see if there is an exception for online bidders like there is for non-NY auctions (I have not read the entire document). There is an interesting provision in there regarding oral opinions on the coins and how they need to then be written and signed by a member of the firm.

Terms of Sale

dragon · February 1, 2007 6:30AM

<<< Here are the terms of sale. Note that there are different ones for NY sales. There is a provision that they make no representations as to whether a coin is cleaned or not. It also looks like there are no returns >>>

That's BS, maybe the bidders should also have a provision that they make no representation that their checks will clear

bidask · February 1, 2007 6:33AM

I tried to warn everyone about the gold coins in this sale when I inspected them first hand in conjunction with the GUND collection of World coins that I did bid on when I was in NY Jan 11, 12th.

I had an earlier post on what I had also considered to be coins in the Americana that were not fully described in their raw condition IMO.

Fairlaneman · February 1, 2007 6:46AM

Good Old Boys, so do not rag on them very much. Continue on......

Crucify the small guy though......

Edit to add:... After seeing the correct coin I retract anything that was implied in the previous statement. Heck its a XF45 coin and more than likely most 45's have some sort of hairlining.

Ken

Julian · February 1, 2007 6:50AM

No coins are perfect. In fact, many coins have light hairlines.

If the coin does grade, then the HL may have been inconsequential to most, except RYK who doesn't like the coin because of them.

Even if the coin does not get encapsulated, the HL may still be inconsequential.

I would have asked Stack's to accept the coin back first, IIWY, but having the coin encapsulated doesn't really mean much if the buyer doesn't like it.

numisma · February 1, 2007 6:54AM

Being Stacks'ed™ is not so bad. I got BlueMoon'ed™ once and it was not pretty.

MrEureka · February 1, 2007 7:08AM

BTW, do you think the marks in the right obverse field were from circulation, or is it tooling (to hide other less natural-looking damage), or something else?

dragon · February 1, 2007 7:10AM

<<< No coins are perfect. In fact, many coins have light hairlines. >>>

Agreed, especially coins that have been wiped or otherwise cleaned, and such coins should be disclosed in the description by the auction firm.

<<< If the coin does grade, then the HL may have been inconsequential to most, except RYK who doesn't like the coin because of them.

Even if the coin does not get encapsulated, the HL may still be inconsequential. >>>

Hairlines are at best grade limiting and at worst make for an undesirable coin. Both major services have routinely holdered 18th and early 19th century coins that have been lightly cleaned as a matter of practice, however, it is still very deceptive of an auction company NOT to disclose hairlines or other signs of cleaning on a raw coin in their catalogs as well as online descriptions.

No one should ever get stuck with a problem coin (holdered or otherwise) as the result of being an internet auction bidder and not being either willing or able to view the coin in person beforehand or having to pay or bother someone else to examine the coin for them IMO.

Barry · February 1, 2007 7:14AM

<< Being Stacks'ed™ is not so bad. I was got BlueMoon'ed™ and it was not pretty. >>

Somebody sitting on a cold bench too long?

Sunnywood · February 1, 2007 7:17AM

Sorry, but this should not have been unexpected. You bought a coin sight unseen, and you are surprised that it does not meet your expectations? RYK, you should know better !!!

Catalog descriptions are often hastily penned, and are not necessarily accurate. There may be a bias (for example if the offered lot is actually property of the auction house, as is often the case), but more often than not any inaccuracy in the description is more a function of time pressure, volumes of lots, and carelessness. I have seen as many lots overdescribed as underdescribed.

Auction coins should not be bought sight unseen. If you have worked with a particular agent long enough to be on common ground as to what you might like, then perhaps you can trust that agent to view the coins for you if you can't get there yourself. Personally I have found that no agent shared my particular taste 100%. I am usually ONLY satisfied if I have viewed the lots myself in person before bidding.

A catalog description is no substitute for seeing the coin yourself. This was a sight-unseen purchase, plain and simple. And what is worse, the terms and conditions of most major auctions prohibit any returns if you HAVE seen the lots in person, and ONLY allow returns if you have not seen the lot in person AND if the lot is either not genuine, or not the article described. Subjective opinions on grade, surface condition, appearance, eye appeal, or even suitability for slabbing are NOT valid grounds for returning the coin. Buying RAW coins sight unseen is a good way to start your bodybag collection.

Sorry to be the naysayer ...

Best,
Sunnywood

numisma · February 1, 2007 7:19AM

No coins are perfect. In fact, many coins have light hairlines.

True. Coincidentally, I just received an 1836 $5 in the mail today. It is graded NGC-40, but it is a fully AU-50 coin in terms of luster and detail. Why is it in an NGC-40 holder? Well, it does have some hairlines from a light cleaning (imho) and a strike-through at 8:00 on the obverse that looks like rim damage. They net graded it. I like it regardless. Plus the price was right!

ColonialCoinUnion · February 1, 2007 7:23AM

<< BTW, do you think the marks in the right obverse field were from circulation, or is it tooling (to hide other less natural-looking damage), or something else? >>

Looks funky to me, though I am prepared to be educated by someone who thinks they are Not Funky™.

stman · February 1, 2007 7:35AM

Edited since wrong link was given to begin with.

bidask · February 1, 2007 7:36AM

<< I hesitate to post this, and I will go on record for saying upfront that I take full responsibility. Here goes...

I was uber-excited about the Cinclair Family Collection of gold coins that was being offered by Stack's in the Americana sale, allegedly a 150 year old family owned collection of gold coins that was put away in 1854 and left undisturbed since. (I have since heard speculation that this was part of another better-known hoard, but that story is for another day.) The archetypal Fresh Collection™, right?

Well, I bid on several of these raw gold pieces and was outbid on every single one the night of the sale. I was disappointed, but I had another iron in the fire and will likely end up with one or two of the better, crusty pieces. The next morning, I rechecked my bids and lo and behold, I was now the winner of Lot 5106 at my max bid. Judging how poorly the other classic head half eagles sold, I knew that I was in trouble.

A couple days later, I spoke with a trusted dealer, who viewed the collection, and told me that these were some very tricky coins to assess. Many of them were hairlines, but you could only see them at a certain angle to the light.

Well, the coin finally arrived, and, sure enough, the coin is hairlined, but you can only see them at a certain angle to the light source. The photo on the website was taken at a fortuitous angle in which no hairlines can be seen, but, in retrospect, there are other signs of an old cleaning. I have some coins to submit to PCGS, and I will throw this one in with the group. I think it has a better than even chance of grading, but this coin is definitely not a keeper for me.

The old ANR would not have offered such a piece, and if they did, there would have been a warning like "personal inspection recommended", which signals us home-gamers to not to bid on it.

Again, I am not blaming Stack's for my overeagerness and hubris in bidding on such a coin. I broke the rules and got spanked for it. I can guarantee that it will not happen again.

>>

You are an honorable man!

RYK · February 1, 2007 7:37AM

<< BTW, do you think the marks in the right obverse field were from circulation, or is it tooling (to hide other less natural-looking damage), or something else?

>>

Sorry, I gave the wrong link.

Here is the correct one (lot 5102). Sorry for the confusion.

In this case, Doug was flying in the morning of the auction, and our schedules did not allow us to talk between auction lot viewing and the auction. We did discuss some of the coins Sunday night before lot viewing, but I freelanced on this one. I rarely bother DW for coins in this price range anyway.

I am not blaming anyone other than myself. I guess I need to knock my head against the wall every now and then just to remind myself that I do not like it.

WinPitcher · February 1, 2007 7:38AM

BTW, I wouldn't lay down on this one especially since they said you were outbid to begin with. Good luck however it turns out.

Yeah i was wondering about that too. I wonder if the 'winner' bailed out when he/she realised it was a problem coin.

Steve

RYK · February 1, 2007 7:40AM

<< First thing I noticed was the right obverse field looked funky. And then this......

<< the coin has clean surfaces with minimal handling marks >>

"Handling marks" with descriptions these days, always make me pause. They can mean hairlines, fingerprints anything. I call it the new wave descriptions for possible problems. Not giving you a lecture RYK

I just think we should ALL beware of this type of description.

BTW, I wouldn't lay down on this one especially since they said you were outbid to begin with. Good luck however it turns out. >>

Actually, the coin that I linked was the only one DW did like, and I think he bought it (handling marks and all).

I failed the Stman test and got sucked in by "the story".

My bad.

notwilight · February 1, 2007 7:47AM

Guys, RYK took full responsibility. Go a little easier on him. People will be less eager to share their learing experiences otherwise.--Jerry

RYK · February 1, 2007 7:48AM

<< Being Stacks'ed™ is not so bad. I got BlueMoon'ed™ once and it was not pretty. >>

This whole line of discussion has got me very Jaded™

.

RYK · February 1, 2007 7:49AM

<< Guys, RYK took full responsibility. Go a little easier on him. People will be less eager to share their learing experiences otherwise.--Jerry >>

Thanks, Jerry, but if people want to tee off on me, that is fine. My reason for posting this was so that someone else may learn and benefit from my experience.

stman · February 1, 2007 8:03AM

I certainly wasn't going off on you RYK, I mainly replied in reference to the "Handling marks" description. It is a pet peeve of mine. But since you changed links my point is moot I guess.

<< I failed the Stman test and got sucked in by "the story". My bad. >>

"Stories" are for entertainment purposes only for me..... I love them!!! Heh heh

RYK · February 1, 2007 8:20AM

Despite all of my bellyaching, the coin is still better than all of those NCS'ed ones for sale on the Heritage site. And it's not bent or holed.

Julian · February 1, 2007 8:21AM

I would never tee off on anyone. I just wanted to offer some insight from someone that does not buy coins without seeing them, unless they are of such rarity that the condition doesn't matter that much.

The new link appears to be a nice circulated coin.

Same comments as before and I would certainly never dis RYK.

kmcoin · February 1, 2007 8:28AM

<< My reason for posting this was so that someone else may learn and benefit from my experience. >>

As someone new to US coin collecting, I deeply appreciate your humility and willingness to share your
experiences..good and bad. It's a great way for me to learn via lessons of this sort...and I'm sure
others do as well.

CarsonCityGold · February 1, 2007 8:40AM

<< I Got Stacks'ed™ >>

Does this have anything to do with Dr 90210??

Oh, Sorry, I misread the title.

Thought there was something you weren't telling us Robert.

Sunnywood · February 1, 2007 9:34AM

Ditto, stman and Julian. I wasn't "going off" or "teeing off" (odd expressions) on RYK, I was just trying to make a strong point for the future benefit of other potential auction bidders. RYK already knows I have great respect for him !!

Best,
Sunnywood

goose3 · February 1, 2007 9:40AM

<< First Head. This evenly worn, pale olive-golden example still retains its fair share of muted mint frost in the more protected areas of the design. >>

For those of you that think RYK did something wrong and/or feel that STACKS did nothing wrong......can someone please point out the part in this description that states the coin has hairlines as a result of a cleaning?

CharlotteDude · February 1, 2007 9:40AM

I guess I'd say I'm most surprised not by the grading gaffe, but the fact this coin doesn't even have a "D" above the date.

RYK · February 22, 2007 11:10AM

Grade is in:

2 1 03971634 8171 1834 $5 Classic-Plain 4 US Cleaned

jabba · February 22, 2007 11:16AM

IMO If the coin came back cleaned and was not listed as one then you should get a refund.

Barry · February 22, 2007 11:39AM

<< Grade is in:

2 1 03971634 8171 1834 $5 Classic-Plain 4 US Cleaned >>

I posted this earlier in the thread, but it's worth repeating:

If it's raw there's a reason for it.

ziggy29 · February 22, 2007 11:48AM

<< I posted this earlier in the thread, but it's worth repeating:

If it's raw there's a reason for it. >>

Not always true. There are still old-time raw collections we don't even know about.

But even if we assume your sage advice is gospel, can we have some consistency? One of the main reasons I'm so aghast about our collective overdependence on plastic is the mercurial nature of TPG standards.

Cleaned once upon a time or not (hell, a 170+ year old coin has a pretty good shot at being messed with at one point), it seems nice enough to be "market acceptable" for what it is. Especially since there are FAR worse coins in EVERY TPG's holders.

I understand why you're saying what you are saying, but the "if it's raw it must be bad" mentality is just so symptomatic of our overdependence on plastic and the "right" TPG that it continues to alienate me from the hobby. It's just as much about getting your coin into the right holder as it is getting your kid in the right college these days, and that seems pretty warped for is supposed to be a HOBBY.

This is a nice coin no matter what the kingmakers in Newport Beach, Sarasota and elsewhere say. They can pound sand.

I hate to say it, but I AM sounding more and more like dorkkarl every day. I appreciate some of what slabbing has done, but our collective overdependence on it seems to be causing problems even worse than the problems slabbing was supposed to solve for us.

I Got Stacks'ed™ (old thread updated)

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