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How about a simple buffalo grading challenge...
Tonedbuff
Posts: 1,190
This one is from Greattoning on ebay... graded by PCGS
No cheating! What grade would you give it?
To illustrate a point, I'm going to add a second coin:
Take a stab at this one too
I know, the pic is not as nice...
I am leaving the obverse out on purpose, as it does not help illustrate the point...
No cheating! What grade would you give it?
To illustrate a point, I'm going to add a second coin:
Take a stab at this one too
I know, the pic is not as nice...
I am leaving the obverse out on purpose, as it does not help illustrate the point...
0
Comments
bob
2nd: EF
But there are strike differences on both.........wes
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
they are...
And they illustrate a point I was trying to make on the difference between fully struck buffs and non fully struck buffs and grading on a coin a week ago.
Now, what grade are they?
I'm very new at this, but I would agree with Jerry. There's a lot of wear at the horn. Toning is very pretty, but I can't tell if it's NT or AT. Part of my reason for giving my response here is that I'm about to post some 37Ds I just bought that I think are MS65 plus ( trying to get the pics right-may be a few days ). You are one of the ones I will be hoping will help me grade them.
The second one, I'd be inclined to give a better grade, just on the strength of the horn.
Looking forward to your "point."
raz
How can this be???
Simple. The horn and flanks are overused as grading tools, allowing a lot of raw buffs to be undergraded and easily cherry picked. There are many buffs with incomplete strikes, which leave significant flat spots that look like wear. In the case of the first buff, look at the hind quarters, and the shoulder and head. All have flat spots THAT ARE NOT DUE TO WEAR, but due to an incomplete strike. You have to look at other details to capture the full grade of the coin. The high spots are virtually flat, but lower spots (which also get wear, mind you) don't show wear associated with how one might grade the coin. Grading by the horn and huge flat spots, the top coin would go Fine. But look at the detail lower down on the strike. Look at the ridgelines on the buffs neck, look at the lettering, and look at the eye and mouth. All details that in a F coin would be much more worn. The eye and mouth generally dissapear for the most part (become shapeless little bumps) by then and the neck (even the upper neck) takes on a flattened, squished appearance.
Here is an NGC F coin
So, my point is that buffalo coins have to be graded with a full appreciation of the effects of strike. Flatness in key highpoints has to be evaluated in light of other points of wear to determine strike versus wear.
FrederickCoinClub
<< <i>already have seen it , tonebuff this is in this holder only because it has a very strong obverse for the date. remember that pcgs tends to take the obverse and consider that for 60% of the grade and that is why this coin is in the holder at this grade. i dont want to say anymore as i dont want to give it away. >>
Agreed to some extent... but it still illustrates a point about stike characteristics. The reverse is hacked all to pieces, but the piece is a legitimate XF despite what would otherwise appear to be excessive wear (and is not) on the reverse.
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<< <i>without sounding arrogant ,i know my buffs and striking characteristics, i recently had a 25s in baltimore november show go ms65. and beleive it or not the obverse on the 25s in xf that your showing is probably better struck. go ahead ask, how can this be? easy its studying and viewing many many buffs .you have to learn what is flatness of strike as to wear! please dont take this as im attacking your knowledge of buffs, im not and im only trying to help. there are many lousy ms buffs that dont even have a full horn but they rarely have luster breaks or flatness on the hip area. THIS IS WHY MOST PEOPLE CANT GRADE BUFFALO NICKELS . BUT ONCE YOU LEARN YOU CAN EVEN CHERRYPICK THE DEALERS AND MAKE ALOT OF$$ IN BUYING BUFFS THAT ARE UNDERGRADED .
I don't take it wrong, I just disagree. The amount of flatness on this coin, if purely wear, would cause this coin to go Fine. Yet, the flatness in these two areas is not reflected in the amount of wear on other parts of the coin. I don't claim to be an expert, and never will. I am a collector, not a dealer, not a pro. However, this coin clearly shows that there is more to grading than just looking at the horn, and the total wear and condition require that you look at more than the horn (which is clearly not fully present and coming to a point, which would be the 'techical grading' requirement for a XF.
Nor am I claiming there is no wear, obviously, as an XF coin, these areas have seen a good bit of wear...
I'm not sure really what point you are tying to make, other than disagreeing with me. I am NOT stating I am an expert in identification of wear versus flatness. I AM pointing out that in these examples, clearly not all the flatness is wear, as the coin does not otherwise fit standard grading practices. I picked a PCGS coin as it would be too easy just to say I overgraded this as XF45 (which likely would have happened). I agree with this coin as XF. So, it drives the question of HOW CAN THIS BE?
Ed has some of the best looking buffs around. In fact when a dealer friend showed me some buffalos that he was selling, I pegged them as Ed's coins just from the "look". I guess that is kinda sad in a way that I would figure that out