For those of you that are interested in getting into the coin flipping business, here is a little in

mrpaseo · January 4, 2007 9:18AM

Here is a snapshot of the "cost and fees" you might have to pay...

1. PCGS signup
2. Purchase item
3. Pay to ship item to you
4. Pay to ship to PCGS
5. Pay for the grading
6. Pay for shipping back to you from PCGS
7. Pay to list on Ebay
8. Pay for items sold on Ebay
9. Pay to use Paypal
10. and finally, Pay to cover the cost of shipping and insurance that the buyer does not cover.

What did I miss guys? What other advice can you come up with to help the new sellers,
Ray

lathmach · January 4, 2007 9:23AM

Hang on.
You know in the real world, you can buy and sell coins without going to the trouble and expense of having a TPG slab the coins.
Your example just shows how out of whack things are getting.
Folks need to learn to grade coins themselves, and have the confidence to buy and sell coins based on their knowledge.

Ray

ziggy29 · January 4, 2007 9:24AM

Eat the cost of coins you thought were good but come back in bodybags?

That shouldn't happen to hoarded Mint products shipped to a TPG still in the original packing box...we hope...

seemyauction · January 4, 2007 9:25AM

<< Hang on.
You know in the real world, you can buy and sell coins without going to the trouble and expense of having a TPG slab the coins.
Your example just shows how out of whack things are getting.
Folks need to learn to grade coins themselves, and have the confidence to buy and sell coins based on their knowledge.

Ray >>

Yea what Ray said...

gyocomgd · January 4, 2007 9:26AM

All this time I thought they got you nine ways to Sunday, and you just found it's worse than that--you named 10 ways.
Excellent post, Ray, and a sobering reminder.

The costs really go beyond that, if you want to get super technical. What about the flips and packaging materials you need to engage in commerce? What about transportation if you're buying the coin in person? What about internet fees you need to access eBay?

LALASD4 · January 4, 2007 9:26AM

Traveling expense.

gyocomgd · January 4, 2007 9:31AM

<< Hang on.
You know in the real world, you can buy and sell coins without going to the trouble and expense of having a TPG slab the coins.
Your example just shows how out of whack things are getting.
Folks need to learn to grade coins themselves, and have the confidence to buy and sell coins based on their knowledge.

Ray >>

Ray, from a selling standpoint, I don't think your "real world" assessment takes into account the real-world truth that certified coins almost always command more money than raw ones. It doesn't matter who the seller is, if PCGS calls a coin MS65, it will be accepted more readily than you calling it a 65.

Conversely, from a buying standpoint you're absolutely right.

CharlesDarwin · January 4, 2007 9:36AM

Is thread supposed to be a favor?

I'm sure you're refering to people who buy mint products, submit and flip. But how about those of us that do things with a little more integrity?

Let me offer some counterpoints.

1. PCGS signup
Sure, it costs at least $50, but you get four free quarterly freebies with it, paying the value right there.

2. Purchase item
If you're doing this right, your purchase price should be low enough to allow plenty of margin.

3. Pay to ship item to you
I get all my material from banks and brick and mortar delaers. Doesn't apply to me.

4. Pay to ship to PCGS
A big enough of a submission dilutes this to a moot point.

5. Pay for the grading
Here's where trouble starts. Playing the modern scene, $14 isn't bad, considering how highly regarded PCGS modern grades are.

6. Pay for shipping back to you from PCGS
See #4.

7. Pay to list on Ebay
8. Pay for items sold on Ebay
9. Pay to use Paypal
Fractional. Should be absorbed easily by margin.

10. and finally, Pay to cover the cost of shipping and insurance that the buyer does not cover.
If you have to pay this, you're not a saavy Ebay user.

I do nicely, thank you, buying choice raw material and submitting for profit potential in the PCGS grade.

gyocomgd · January 4, 2007 9:53AM

<< Is thread supposed to be a favor?

I'm sure you're refering to people who buy mint products, submit and flip. But how about those of us that do things with a little more integrity?
>>

CharlesDarwin, you seem agitated. Where did Mr. Paseo even begin to broach the subject of integrity? Answer: Nowhere. All he's saying is that flipping coins can be expensive, and that one should take a number of potential cost factors into account.
And yes, the thread does rate as a favor, or at least a reminder of how costs can erode profits.

TwoSides2aCoin · January 4, 2007 9:58AM

Be very selective in the coins you choose to have encapsulated and graded. That would be my advice.

Zoins · January 4, 2007 10:01AM

You're missing forecasted profit. If this is expected to and actually covers all the costs you listed, those costs are just costs of doing business.

For US Mint collectibles, you should cover:

- Selling FS 70s
- Selling individual FS 69s
- Selling FS 69s in bulk
- Preselling FS 69s

LindeDad · January 4, 2007 10:10AM

Depending on how much you do you might consider.

1. A business licence.
2. Bookkeeping service.
3. Tax consultant.
4. Filing and paying of sales tax.
5. Cost of computer and internet service in business.
6. Photo equiptment.
7. What is your hourly wage to do all this.

coinlieutenant · January 4, 2007 10:13AM

A real flip is much easier and less complicated.

It involves writing a check for a coin (raw or graded), knowing where to move it, walking it to said person, taking their check...done deal.

Edited to add: What you are talking about are expenses for a coin inventory that mostly moves through ebay...which is by far the most tedious of all selling methods IMO.

notwilight · January 4, 2007 10:17AM

Where are the real businessmen? What is the most important expense for anyone who carries inventory? The cost of money. This is at least a 2 month process the way you have it laid out. --Jerry

Russ · January 4, 2007 10:18AM

<< A real flip is much easier and less complicated.

It involves writing a check for a coin (raw or graded), knowing where to move it, walking it to said person, taking their check...done deal. >>

True, and I've done that plenty of times. However, the opportunities have diminished significantly over the last few years as more "flippers" have entered the market to chase flip targets.

Russ, NCNE

sinin1 · January 4, 2007 10:39AM

it is also possible to buy coins already slabbed

roadrunner · January 4, 2007 10:48AM

Agreed, it's easier to find a PQ or solidly graded slab and flip it just as it is. With the price guides being quite inaccurate in many areas, you can buy a low end slab and often do well on it.

roadrunner

mrpaseo · January 4, 2007 10:58AM

<< Here is a snapshot of the "cost and fees" you might have to pay...

1. PCGS signup
2. Purchase item
3. Pay to ship item to you
4. Pay to ship to PCGS
5. Pay for the grading
6. Pay for shipping back to you from PCGS
7. Pay to list on Ebay
8. Pay for items sold on Ebay
9. Pay to use Paypal
10. and finally, Pay to cover the cost of shipping and insurance that the buyer does not cover.

What did I miss guys? What other advice can you come up with to help the new sellers,
Ray >>

Yes Sir I agree

mrpaseo · January 4, 2007 11:08AM

<< Depending on how much you do you might consider.

1. A business licence.
2. Bookkeeping service.
3. Tax consultant.
4. Filing and paying of sales tax.
5. Cost of computer and internet service in business.
6. Photo equiptment.
7. What is your hourly wage to do all this. >>

Holy crap I wasn't even thinking this deep but you are so right....

Thanks for the input,
Ray

mrpaseo · January 4, 2007 11:12AM

Wow, thank you all so very much for the great insight.

My example is only one of many (As it was pointed out) and some of the info I hadn't even considered.

-Ray

stman · January 4, 2007 11:14AM

And of course claim all profits on your taxes, like any good/honest business person does. I'm sure everybody does this though.

ad4400 · January 4, 2007 11:25AM

I probably should have asked this question when I first saw it, but what about the situation when somone buys a $100 coin on TT, lists on ebay w/ an $100 markup. If the coin sells your costs are rather marginal. If it doesn't sell you could presumably have quick enough turn around btw when you win on TT and ending the ebay auction to simply return to TT, and while incur shipping and return fee, otherwise avoid a good deal of risk. My thoughts when I first saw that was 1) was that terribly ethical and 2) does this stuff move?

mirabela · January 4, 2007 11:55AM

It's really not as bad as all that.

I flip coins all the time. I do not get rich at it by any means, but I sort of balance the funds in my hobby that way. I tend to lose money on the things I buy because I actually want them, so I make it up with things I buy because I know I can make a profit on them.

One thing I do not do is include PCGS in the process. If the coin is in a slab, great. I buy and sell it that way. If the coin is not in a slab, great. I buy and sell it that way. What's the big deal?

There are places to sell coins that are not ebay, too. The good news about them is that you can net 3-5% more than you would have on ebay, while letting your buyer have it for 3-5% less than they would have paid there. Win/win.

I'll say this much -- it is a lot of work. Reckoned in terms of hourly wage, I actually earn more as a writer of short stories than I do as a flipper of coins. That's the dead truth, and it is sufficient grounds for laughter on the part of those who know anything about the writers' markets. Still, it is fun, and you definitely can do it without going through all the crap you described.

My 2 cents ...

clackamas · January 4, 2007 12:01PM

You left out the time to do all of the above.

renman95 · January 4, 2007 12:07PM

Jeez, I might as well not even get out of bed let alone my pj's.

circulated · January 4, 2007 12:26PM

<<5. Pay for the grading
Here's where trouble starts. Playing the modern scene, $14 isn't bad, considering how highly regarded PCGS modern grades are>>

This is the real problem here. I think the other costs aren't too bad if you really think you have a great crackout. But I don't know how people wait 21 days (working days!) to get grades back - the longest I can wait is 5 days. Sure, I've waited much longer but wasn't crazy about it! 2 days is much better. I usually spend $30-$50/coin. Maybe it's silly, but I HATE waiting for grades

mrpaseo · January 4, 2007 12:30PM

<< <<5. Pay for the grading
Here's where trouble starts. Playing the modern scene, $14 isn't bad, considering how highly regarded PCGS modern grades are>>

This is the real problem here. I think the other costs aren't too bad if you really think you have a great crackout. But I don't know how people wait 21 days (working days!) to get grades back - the longest I can wait is 5 days. Sure, I've waited much longer but wasn't crazy about it! 2 days is much better. I usually spend $30-$50/coin. Maybe it's silly, but I HATE waiting for grades

>>

SAME DAY GRADING, ONE LOW COST

THATS IT

RegistryCoin · January 4, 2007 1:54PM

In addition to LindeDad and notwilight's supplements, "opportunity cost" can be factored in.

itsnotjustme · January 4, 2007 3:11PM

Transportation (To where you buy items, to the PO, etc)
Insurance
Security (Safe, alarm system, better locks, etc)

seanq · January 4, 2007 3:31PM

Here's how good I got at it.

Seriously, if you know your market, know how to grade, and know how to attribute, you can make some decent profits flipping coins through PCGS. I mainly do this with Cherrypicker varieties and FS nickels, with a handful of modern proof and toners thrown in. Even buying the variety coins attributed (but raw), out of 20-odd submissions I've turned a profit on all but two or three. Not enough to retire on, but enough to free up some funds to buy more coins to keep in my collection.

Two asides: I only submit coins to PCGS that I intend to flip, the vast majority of my collection is either acquired raw or cracked out after purchase. Also, I absolutely claim the profits as "hobby income" on my taxes - eBay is too public a venue, and I don't imagine it would take the IRS more than fifteen seconds to track down my sales.

Sean Reynolds

BlindedByEgo · January 4, 2007 4:06PM

You all forgot the upside in owning a B&M store - ripping old ladies at 10-20% of the coin's true market value... You sure can absorb an awful lot of costs into that basis.

And don't tell me it doesn't happen - yeah, less so here amongst this upstanding crowd, but it's done every day.

I just had to come back from vacation in Hawaii, and I'm a bit cranky

Konahead · January 4, 2007 4:30PM

<< Eat the cost of coins you thought were good but come back in bodybags?

That shouldn't happen to hoarded Mint products shipped to a TPG still in the original packing box...we hope... >>

Amen to that, I can't tell you how many coins that looked ok but once sent in came back in a bag.

ddink · January 4, 2007 10:12PM

I never have my coins graded. They are always "flipped" raw.

tyler267 · January 4, 2007 10:37PM

What about setting up at local coin shows? Good or bad?

IrishMike · January 4, 2007 10:49PM

<< I probably should have asked this question when I first saw it, but what about the situation when somone buys a $100 coin on TT, lists on ebay w/ an $100 markup. If the coin sells your costs are rather marginal. If it doesn't sell you could presumably have quick enough turn around btw when you win on TT and ending the ebay auction to simply return to TT, and while incur shipping and return fee, otherwise avoid a good deal of risk. My thoughts when I first saw that was 1) was that terribly ethical and 2) does this stuff move? >>

3 or 4 years ago if you were smart you could buy coins off Teletrade and flip them for me at least a 25% profit on average. The key was to get your hands around what was in demand, which was mostly registry stuff, moderns in high grades. I don't see any ethical dilemma in that, but today I think its more difficult as membership has picked up on Teletrade.

jmski52 · January 4, 2007 11:17PM

You also might want to consider market risk/market fluctuation in your considerations. More and more, the distinction between flipping and coin dealing seems to be blurred. I mean, the motivation is the same, right?

Problem is, when I buy some coins for speculation, such as I did this year, I start to get somewhat attached to them before I can finish all of the administrative machinations done (in order to sell them), and now I am agonizing over which ones really, really have to be sold off. Yikes.

tyler267 · January 5, 2007 1:00AM

JM

Same Here I still have all my SAEs and 2006w's. I've been to lazy to learn how to list them on ebay. I'm a classic coin guy, but I have grown kind of attatched to the 2006 mint issues I bought.

SkyMan · January 5, 2007 1:09AM

Jeez, am I the only one on this forum who actually likes to buy coins because I think they look neat, and then hold them for years/decades?

jmski52 · January 5, 2007 1:17AM

Jeez, am I the only one on this forum who actually likes to buy coins because I think they look neat, and then hold them for years/decades?

Nope, you are not alone - and I would hazard a guess that many of the "coin flippers" who frequent here are "closet coin collectors."

seanq · January 5, 2007 1:23AM

<< Jeez, am I the only one on this forum who actually likes to buy coins because I think they look neat, and then hold them for years/decades? >>

No, I do that too. I just flip these other coins so I can afford to buy the neat coins worth holding for decades.

Sean Reynolds

For those of you that are interested in getting into the coin flipping business, here is a little in

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