1921-S BUFF???

bigtonydallas · December 28, 2006 8:00AM

GRADE THIS 1921-S BUFF ON EBAY. THIS COIN LOOKS LIKE A VG NOT A FINE. WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK. IT IS ALSO THE 2 FEATHER VARIETY!!!

Newcomp103 · December 28, 2006 8:12AM

I'n not as concerned about whether it is VG or Fine...it seeems like it has several areas that have been rubbed with something...possibly whizzed, but I can't say for certain...if you look at the reverse, you can see starting upper left of the "S" is States, crossing downward diagonally through the middle of the Buffalo to the back legs...it just looks weird to me...it may be toning, but that definately takes something away from the overall look. Good luck...hope this helps.

bigtonydallas · December 28, 2006 8:41AM

ANOTHER 2 FEATHER. A 1926-S NGC VF!!!

Riothamus · December 28, 2006 8:42AM

The '21-S is notorious for toning streaks due to improperly mixed alloy. The coin looks original and although I agree it technically looks VG rather than F you have to throw out Photograde when grading branch mint Buffalos from the '20s. On this particular coin you can see that the wear on the hip (the point on the reverse where rub first becomes evident) is not as bad as the seemingly heavily worn head. That's because the peripheral elements of the coin are weakly struck (see LIBERTY on the obverse?) rather than heavily worn.

Unfortunately, the gradeflation rampant in this series would probably draw a grade of F for this coin, though it is not a technical F in any sense.

Riothamus

WinPitcher · December 28, 2006 8:57AM

I thought the coin was overgraded and priced myself. Fine, IMO should show some horn and not have any lettering flattened.

Not sure what that 'line' on the reverse is either.

A nice coin, just not for 140.00 IMO.

Steve

Tonedbuff · December 28, 2006 8:58AM

No way that coin goes F!
Technically, I'd give it a G because of wear in key areas (if you grade by the horn, it definately only goes good as VG needs the base to be visible). I'd like it a lot as a Good, a little as a VG (many parts of the design hold up to VG I think) and not at all as a F or better!

Riothamus · December 28, 2006 9:09AM

The line on the reverse is an area where the copper in the alloy is evident from the improper alloy mix.

Riothamus

MJH · December 28, 2006 9:34AM

I think the obverse would go VG,
But the reverse might only be a good.

MJH

veryfine · December 28, 2006 9:43AM

I am in no way a Buffalo Nickel expert but that coin looks like a Fine to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the 21-s usually have a weak strike? The rims and the date are very strong and the overall look is bold. Are we supposed to use a 1938-D grading standard for this date?
Perhaps someone here could educate me by showing what a "true Fine" should look like of this date.

newport · December 28, 2006 10:43AM

compair this coin to the NGC VG8 coin that I just bought....this cioin would grade a FINE by a long shot. Sorry no photo...

yellowjacket · December 28, 2006 12:36PM

This is so typical of the 21-S. The obverse would grade Fine (some weakness in liberty). It's well-struck. But the reverse has the classic flat head with little horn detail. I would bet there wasn't much horn detail when it was uncirculated. As a result you would be hard-pressed to get Fine money on this one. Hold out for a true Fine with more horn detail.

Garrow

Newcomp103 · December 28, 2006 12:47PM

I have seen a few 21-S that had a very lightly struck obverse...especially in the "19" of the date...but showed half horn on a better struck reverse...considered Fine also.

veryfine · December 28, 2006 12:47PM

<< <i>This is so typical of the 21-S. The obverse would grade Fine (some weakness in liberty). It's well-struck. But the reverse has the classic flat head with little horn detail. I would bet there wasn't much horn detail when it was uncirculated. As a result you would be hard-pressed to get Fine money on this one. Hold out for a true Fine with more horn detail.

Garrow >>

So Garrow,
what standards do the grading services use when grading a circulated 21-s?

yellowjacket · December 28, 2006 12:55PM

They ususally use market grading. They take all parts of the coin into consideration and figure what the market will judge the coin when setting a price. Unfortunately for this coin, the series places a high priority on the horn detail. And even though this date/MM comes weakly struck on the reverse, I doubt it will grade Fine.

Now I use my own grading system...

"I grade that $75.00."

Garrow

cladking · December 28, 2006 1:55PM

I'd grade it a top end VG. The obverse is VG++ and could be reasonably overgraded to F but
the reverse kills any overgrading. It's really not even full VG. It is an attractive coin though,
especially for the date.

mcheath · December 28, 2006 1:59PM

i agree that its not a fine but i will give it a vg8. I agree its probably an $80 coin.

MercuryMan27 · December 28, 2006 2:16PM

VG possibly a G!

veryfine · December 28, 2006 3:18PM

So far, I am still not convinced that this coin is below F12. From what I've seen, if you want 1/2 horn detail present for this date, it would fall under the VF category.
Take, for example, the 27-s Standing Liberty quarter. You simply cannot grade a circulated 27-s using the same standards as a 30P. What would you say; hold out for a more sharply defined 27-s with better shield definition?

Since Buffalo Nickels are not my specialty, I would only buy a certified 21-s for added security. However, based on the picture of the coin in question, it appears to be a F12.
I would like to see someone post a PCGS Fine 12 of this date or any definitive example of this date in this grade. Come on Buffalo experts, we need your help!

newport · December 28, 2006 8:59PM

Checking Heritage past auctions this would grade a Fine only with ANACS, PCGS would not make the grade. Sorry I don't know how to link photos.

ad4400 · December 28, 2006 11:40PM

Take your pick, although there does seem to be some degree of inconsistency (I'd take the PCGS VGs over the F)

PCGS 8

PCGS10

PCGS12

NGC15

RichieURich · December 29, 2006 7:23AM

Tony, the 1921-S is definitely a 2-feather variety, which is not that uncommon for a 1921-S. Still worth 10% to 20% more than a regular 1921-S. I would grade it Fine/VG.

The 1926-S IMO is not a 2-feather as I can see the 3rd feather on the photo. When you can see it on the photo, believe me, you can definitely see it on the coin in person. Unfortunately, that is the difficulty of finding 2-feather Buffaloes from pictures, many that look like 2 feathers aren't.

koynekwest · December 29, 2006 7:46AM

<< <i>Tony, the 1921-S is definitely a 2-feather variety, which is not that uncommon for a 1921-S. Still worth 10% to 20% more than a regular 1921-S. I would grade it Fine/VG.

The 1926-S IMO is not a 2-feather as I can see the 3rd feather on the photo. When you can see it on the photo, believe me, you can definitely see it on the coin in person. Unfortunately, that is the difficulty of finding 2-feather Buffaloes from pictures, many that look like 2 feathers aren't. >>

Rich-

I think you are correct on the '26-S. Not to say one couldn't exist, tho. Look for the '26-P and D 2 feather-both are VERY tough.

1921-S BUFF???

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