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Are most of the best early half cents and large cents represented in the PCGS or NGC census?
SmallEagle
Posts: 736
I've read that many early copper collectors prefer their coins raw. Does this mean that compared to other (noncopper) areas the PCGS and other main TPG censuses (censi?) are not an accurate indication of what is out there?
And yes, this is my first post. I've been religiously lurking and learning for a few months.
And yes, this is my first post. I've been religiously lurking and learning for a few months.
Who is John Galt?
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<< <i>I've read that many early copper collectors prefer their coins raw. Does this mean that compared to other (noncopper) areas the PCGS and other main TPG censuses (censi?) are not an accurate indication of what is out there? >>
YES
Welcome aboard!
Yes.
A lot of early copper does trade raw, for that, and
other reasons.
Welcome aboard!!
~
"America suffers today from too much pluribus and not enough unum.".....Arthur Schlesinger Jr.
Who is John Galt?
Now, whether they're still in the holder is a completely different matter.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Who is John Galt?
The one area of early copper that defies this trend is "type" coins, like the 1818 and 1820 cents from the Randall hoard, and some of the common hoard coins of the 1850s. These coins are easier to sell to the type-collecting public once they are sealed in a slab that says MS65 BN.
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no
<< <i>Not even close. As your reading suggests, the vast majority of early copper is unslabbed. The PCGS and NGC census are practically useless for these coins. I'd guess less than 10% are slabbed and would suggest this is due to both the copper market which often prefers raw coins as well as the large percentage of problem coins (corrosion, recoloring, etc.) that would preclude them from ever making it into plastic...Mike >>
I agree--the same probably goes for DBH and CBH material as well. Most Bust Half afficianados like raw coins--I do.
Edited to add: Welcome!!!!
IMO most early copper is raw. Look at the major copper collections sold since the advent of TPG (excepting Rasmussen and Reiver which were slabbed for marketing and many immediately broken out by collectors acquiring the pieces) when auctioned off. If you look at the official condition census ( the top 25 coins known to the CC keepers of each Sheldon and Newcomb variety) published by Bill Noyes, Del Bland and Dan Demeo. Very little is known to be slabbed in the CC. Additionaly, if you take into account most of the everyday copper it's not worth it to slab the coins. TPG condition census is very inaccurate, especially where condition census pieces are concerned, as to the overall population of coppers, and in their grading as compared to EAC style standards. In some cases maybe it makes sense to slab copper, However, I would surmise that the majority of seriously dedicated copper collectors prefer raw coins to slabbed coins. One really cannot truly appreciate the beauty or condition of an early copper coin in a slab as opposed to raw. I crack out any copper that I might buy slabbed and do not know a single copper collector that prefers or collects slabbed coppers. Not to say there are none - just to illustrate the point
Ultimately, to each his own in preference, however, TPG census information is not only of no value to me in early copper populations, but totally misleading in in terms of the accurate grading of early coppers. IMHO
Who is John Galt?
I don't feel that TPGs will get the opportunity to slab any significant number of high-end pieces. The majority will continue to trade raw.
<< <i>I'm not convinced early coppers are easier to sell if slabbed. Most specialists deplored the slabbing of the Reiver and Rasmussen coins. Many of these coins were conserved by NCS. In fact EAC grades were given along with the TP grades. The Reiver and Rasmussen collections were also marketing large collections to much more diverse crowd than copper weenies or EACers alone and maybe slabbing served to satisfy a broader base of potential buyers. The consignors and auction house obviously felt that this would be financially rewarding.
I don't feel that TPGs will get the opportunity to slab any significant number of high-end pieces. The majority will continue to trade raw. >>
I won't dispute your overall assertion, I would point out that copper type coins are far more saleable in slabs -- admittedly this is a small portion of the market, but it shouldn't be completely ignored...Mike
<< <i>Mike, good point and very valid one for the type and date material !!! Also as copper collecting goes for mainstream you will see the TPGs increase. IMO there are two definite camps here that drive this - the specialists/those that have a strong interest in copper and those that do not specialize, i.e., type and some date collectors. >>
And beginners who aren't as comfortable purchasing raw.
Who is John Galt?
<< <i>For example, if you look at chain cents, PCGS shows 47 coins graded at AU50 or higher and NGC shows 22. Do you think this significantly underestimates the number of this type of coin? >>
<< <i>It has been stated here that 1.) most early copper collectors prefer to enjoy their pieces raw and 2.) the pieces are easier to sell when they are slabbed. If this cycle persists perhaps the TPG census currently or will someday soon actually overstate the number of high-end condition census pieces. >>
By EAC standards they are already overstated. You mention the number of chain cents over AU-50. Graded by EAC standards, there are currently only 18 chain cents in the Condition Census AU-50 or higher. A great many of those pieces in the PCGS and NGC pop reports are probably in the census, but at much lower levels, and some of them probably don't even make the census.
We have seen many many cases when coins sold in a major copper collection are sold that don't make the census or are at the low end of the scale then get slabbed by one of the services and then promoted as "finest known" or equal to the third finest in the CC etc. But they are comparing the liberal (by EAC standards) TPG grade to the much more conservitive EAC grades in the census. Just because they slabbed it doesn't mean that it is getting bumped up in the census.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>I'd be one of those beginners you mentioned... >>
A little piece of advice -- you would do good to stick to PCGS slabs for a while. Avoid NGC and ANACS slabs until you have the ability to spot problem coins in these holders...Mike
p.s. please consider turning on your private messages -- on the top right of this page, click the "profile" button, the turn "allow private messages" on.
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Who is John Galt?
In the modern auction era, most coppers are slabbed so that auction houses will not have a large volume of returns from non-live auction bidders. For instance, Heritage has all copper coins "slabbed" by NGC, NCS or even ANACS. Most by NGC and NCS since Heritage has a large ownership percentage of the company. This does not mean that they all received a grade. If a copper is a "problem" coin, it will be slabbed by NCS. There are a large number of coins from rare varieties that would be considered "problem" coins and could never receive a grade. This includes a great number of Condition Census level coins. The Jules Reiver auction in January 2006 was a great example.
There are also major auction companies that sell copper in the "raw". Specifically, Stack's, Superior and Goldberg. Most of the major copper dealers sell "raw" coins almost exclusively.
In looking at my own collection, about 60% of the coins were in a slab at one time or another. About 10% have actually been in a slab multiple times. The other 40% were bought "raw". Most of these are Condition Census level coins and there is no record that any of them were ever slabbed. Many of my most prized "old-time" coins with long pedigrees have never, ever been slabbed. They have all been acquired privately in the "copper fraternity".
The obvious exception to the rule of coppers not staying in the slabs are the high grade and ultra-high grade type sets and registry sets. There are some really nice high grade coppers as well as a number of Condition Census level coins in sets such as these.
In answer to the accuracy of the censuses of the grading services...they simply tell you how many of certain coins have been graded by a certain grading service at a certain level. Not accounted for are 1) crackouts, 2) crossovers, 3) resubmissions, 4) coins that have never been graded, 5) "problem" coins. In the copper world, there are definitely a high percentage of coins in #4 and #5.
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