My guess is that the writers don't take as much time to investigate. They probably look at 4 or 5 stats, what place the team finished, whether they despise the person and then cast a vote. I doubt they take a look at the number of outs made or try and determine who is a better baserunner.
Don't fans look at these stats too closely and read into them too much? They both had nice seasons and both teams won their respective divisions. I don't have a problem with Morneau being voted MVP and it wouldn't have bothered me if Jeter was named MVP. In fact I was convinced Jeter was going to be named.
Jeter finished second in the AL in batting average and 4th in OBP, but his lack of power gives him the lowest OPS of these 10 players. His slugging percentage was a distant 29th -- 176 points behind Hafner.
Of Jeter's 214 hits, 158 of them -- 74% -- were singles. By comparison, Hafner had 47% (66 of 140), Ortiz 47% (75 of 160) and Manny Ramirez 56% (81 of 144).
And, how about his poof fielding? (I know, he was awarded a Gold Glove for some unknown reason, but the facts are clear) -
Two of the best known fielding stats are Range Factor (putouts and assists divided by innings) and Zone Rating (the percentage of balls fielded in the player's defensive zone):
Jeter finished last in RF and 7th in ZR. Among 24 qualifying MLB shortstops (playing 2 of every 3 games), Jeter was 19th.
I could go on and on - but I would like the record to show that I am not basing my opinion of Jeter not being the MVP solely on his Triple Crown stats.
Zone Rating is the more accurate of the defensive stats, and Jeter was 7th. Translated into runs saved, he was appx 7 runs above average.
A SS who is average carries more weight, than a 1B who was average...in other words, their impact on the game is not the same defensively. A DH...well forget it.
OPS is a good measure, but not as good as the RUNS CREATED ABOVE, as it puts a more accurate value to each event. One thing you will notice too is that Mauer is higher than Jeter on the OPS list, but lower on the RUNS CREATED I showed. That is because Mauer didn't play as many games, thus he was not creating the same amount of runs...even though his RATE may be higher. Not creating as many runs is simply not as good for a team.
Remember, a SS who hits that high is more advantageous to a team, than a 1B/DH who does. I'm sure most recognize this. So if a SS and 1B are that close, then it is the SS that is creating more wins for his team. There are only two players on that list who play the tough positions, Jeter and Mauer.
We know that OPS is not quite as good as the Linear Weights number(runs saved above), though it is a good measurement. But how much is 100 OPS points worth? Looking at how often a player plays, AND his offensive events, OPS will translate into the Linear WEights number as used above. Jeter was at 39, Morneau at 31.
Don't forget the Stolen bases, which Jeter's stolen base prowess gives him appx 9 more such runs. That puts him at 48 runs, just behind Papi and Haf...two DH's with no defensive contribution. Remember too, stolen bases aren't the only aspect of baserunning. In reality Jeter probably adds a couple of more runs above those guys when it is taken into account.
The question is, are the 48-50 runs close enough for Jeter's SS status to eclipse the two DH's above him? Down six runs to Papi...YES SS status definately pushes him past Papi. Down 11 to Hafner? It gets really close here! Hafner may actually have the edge if he dwarfs him in Men on Base hitting.
Morenau? This is where everybody should be scratching their head. Again, Mauer is much superior to Morneau, and he is a teammate. FOr Morneau to win the league award!!!??? Johan Santana better be very high on Morneau's Christmas list. Or maybe the entire WHite SOx pitching staff too.
<< <i>When you start using the post as reasons you believe something - well you have issues. No congrats here? Wow, shows you what a sportsman you are. >>
The Post had nothing to do with what I believe - I liked and agreed with the headline and the following sentence..
Tough to take someone seriously when they tell you to grow up but three posts before they came out with "I'm sure you'd say that to his face." I think I said that once when I was 12.
The MVP is a value award now? How the hell did Arod ever win?
Jeter was gracious in conceding defeat....far from gracious in his handling of Arod...and it surely cost him votes. Had he been a leader (he is captain after all) and publicly defended Arod (just like he did for doper giambi), then I think he wouldn't have lost those votes. Yes, all those things *should* figure in to the MVP voting. You want the benefit of being the captain of the most media-centric, then you have to take the blame when you don't step up as a leader and get the most out of your teammates.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Can you please stay on topic? Christ man you need to learn how to do that.
A guy has a whole town coming down on you, no amount of money is going to make that better...all jeter 'da captain' as he is referred to, needed to do is step up and defend his TEAMMATE like he did with giambi and I bet he would have won the mvp.
YOU were critical of Jeter not supporting A-Rod. YOU said a player needs a captain to become motivated.
I simply said $25,00,000 should be motivation enough to play your hardest.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Who said Arod wasn't playing his hardest? Did I say that? Or are you running your yap uninformed as usual?
Yes, I thought it was the latter. When you have an entire city and press hungry for your blood, you're going to struggle. I simply pointed out all jeter had to do was make a gesture and stand up for him like he did that scumbag giambi, and he wouldn't have lost votes.
Now, quit derailing every thread I post in....the forum's getting sick of your old tired ways.
Just because I'm proving you wrong doesn't mean I'm derailing. If you didn't bring up irrevelant subjects, this wouldn't have happened. I mean, you are already resorting to name calling... It's you who is flaming.
So please stop and thank you in advance.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
JrMacDaddy, I would say you are probably very accurate in your assessment...the writers most likely do take a superficial look, rather than dig deeper(like I posted). Then maybe some guys do dig a little deeper(and it varies from year to year), and this helps lend to the historical hypocrisy of the award. It is far easier for a writer to see 140 RBI, write down your vote, and then send it in....DONE, time to eat some pork chops! I too cannot imagine a writer digging this deep for the ten spots he has to fill out.
Ax, salary and value has some merit, and there are lots of ways to look at it. It has merit in the current view of an MVP candidate(thats another reason why it is crazy to look at the MVP in the with/without terms), but not in the best player debate(though it can in how it affects the team)...like I said, it can get complicated. I toyed with the idea of looking into that somewhat, in terms of longevity and peak value, and how having a great peak is more beneficial because that team isn't necessarily the one that has to pay for him. I haven't formulated anything of any validity at all on it, except the obvious...lower salary the better(except most all start low and finish high, so it will usually equal out in the long run anyway). blah, I'm rambling out loud.
Comments
Don't fans look at these stats too closely and read into them too much? They both had nice seasons and both teams won their respective divisions. I don't have a problem with Morneau being voted MVP and it wouldn't have bothered me if Jeter was named MVP. In fact I was convinced Jeter was going to be named.
Here are some basic hitting stats and each player's ranking among AL hitters (in order of OPS):
AVG R OBP R SLG R OPS R
Hafner .308 17 .439 2 .659 1 1.097 1
Ramirez .321 8 .439 1 .619 4 1.058 2
Ortiz .287 38 .413 7 .636 2 1.049 3
Thome .288 37 .416 5 .598 5 1.014 4
Dye .315 12 .385 12 .622 3 1.006 5
Giambi .253 71 .413 6 .558 7 .971 6
Mauer .347 1 .429 3 .507 20 .936 7
Morneau .321 7 .375 18 .559 6 .934 8
Rodriguez .290 32 .392 9 .523 14 .914 13
Jeter .343 2 .417 4 .483 29 .900 15
Jeter finished second in the AL in batting average and 4th in OBP, but his lack of power gives him the lowest OPS of these 10 players. His slugging percentage was a distant 29th -- 176 points behind Hafner.
Of Jeter's 214 hits, 158 of them -- 74% -- were singles. By comparison, Hafner had 47% (66 of 140), Ortiz 47% (75 of 160) and Manny Ramirez 56% (81 of 144).
And, how about his poof fielding? (I know, he was awarded a Gold Glove for some unknown reason, but the facts are clear) -
Two of the best known fielding stats are Range Factor (putouts and assists divided by innings) and Zone Rating (the percentage of balls fielded in the player's defensive zone):
INN TC PO A E RF ZR
Peralta 1275.1 710 235 459 16 4.90 .817
Young 1356.1 747 241 492 14 4.86 .836
Uribe 1130.0 604 217 373 14 4.70 .868
Tejada 1294.2 675 238 418 19 4.56 .824
Berroa 1117.1 573 188 367 18 4.47 .791
Betancourt 1374.1 701 251 430 20 4.46 .806
Guillen 1235.0 634 178 428 28 4.42 .832
Cabrera 1321.2 645 253 376 16 4.29 .818
Jeter 1292.1 610 214 381 15 4.14 .810
Jeter finished last in RF and 7th in ZR. Among 24 qualifying MLB shortstops (playing 2 of every 3 games), Jeter was 19th.
I could go on and on - but I would like the record to show that I am not basing my opinion of Jeter not being the MVP solely on his Triple Crown stats.
A SS who is average carries more weight, than a 1B who was average...in other words, their impact on the game is not the same defensively. A DH...well forget it.
OPS is a good measure, but not as good as the RUNS CREATED ABOVE, as it puts a more accurate value to each event. One thing you will notice too is that Mauer is higher than Jeter on the OPS list, but lower on the RUNS CREATED I showed. That is because Mauer didn't play as many games, thus he was not creating the same amount of runs...even though his RATE may be higher. Not creating as many runs is simply not as good for a team.
Remember, a SS who hits that high is more advantageous to a team, than a 1B/DH who does. I'm sure most recognize this. So if a SS and 1B are that close, then it is the SS that is creating more wins for his team. There are only two players on that list who play the tough positions, Jeter and Mauer.
We know that OPS is not quite as good as the Linear Weights number(runs saved above), though it is a good measurement. But how much is 100 OPS points worth? Looking at how often a player plays, AND his offensive events, OPS will translate into the Linear WEights number as used above. Jeter was at 39, Morneau at 31.
Park adjusted...the list would look like this...
Haf.......60
Papi......55
Thome...43
Jeter......39
Giambi...39
Dye.......38
Mauer...36
Arod....34
Morneau...31
Don't forget the Stolen bases, which Jeter's stolen base prowess gives him appx 9 more such runs. That puts him at 48 runs, just behind Papi and Haf...two DH's with no defensive contribution. Remember too, stolen bases aren't the only aspect of baserunning. In reality Jeter probably adds a couple of more runs above those guys when it is taken into account.
The question is, are the 48-50 runs close enough for Jeter's SS status to eclipse the two DH's above him? Down six runs to Papi...YES SS status definately pushes him past Papi. Down 11 to Hafner? It gets really close here! Hafner may actually have the edge if he dwarfs him in Men on Base hitting.
Morenau? This is where everybody should be scratching their head. Again, Mauer is much superior to Morneau, and he is a teammate. FOr Morneau to win the league award!!!??? Johan Santana better be very high on Morneau's Christmas list. Or maybe the entire WHite SOx pitching staff too.
Want to talk value? Morneau made $350k this year....and puts up those numbers. Talk about value! (same with Howard, same salary).
How much did Jeter make? $20 million? Not a very good value...
<< <i>When you start using the post as reasons you believe something - well you have issues. No congrats here? Wow, shows you what a sportsman you are. >>
The Post had nothing to do with what I believe - I liked and agreed with the headline and the following sentence..
Tough to take someone seriously when they tell you to grow up but three posts before they came out with "I'm sure you'd say that to his face." I think I said that once when I was 12.
The MVP is a value award now? How the hell did Arod ever win?
I doubt it, though.
<< <i>Perhaps you can take lessons from the guy who you thought was 'robbed' and learn to be a gracious runner up. >>
Oh, now Jeter is gracious? What happened to him being a self-centered jerk who glared at Arod when a pop-up fell between them...
And how did Arod win the MVP again, with it's focus on "value"?
<< <i>get the most out of your teammates. >>
Yeah, that $25,000,000 isn't enough
Can you please stay on topic? Christ man you need to learn how to do that.
A guy has a whole town coming down on you, no amount of money is going to make that better...all jeter 'da captain' as he is referred to, needed to do is step up and defend his TEAMMATE like he did with giambi and I bet he would have won the mvp.
YOU were critical of Jeter not supporting A-Rod. YOU said a player needs a captain to become motivated.
I simply said $25,00,000 should be motivation enough to play your hardest.
Yes, I thought it was the latter. When you have an entire city and press hungry for your blood, you're going to struggle. I simply pointed out all jeter had to do was make a gesture and stand up for him like he did that scumbag giambi, and he wouldn't have lost votes.
Now, quit derailing every thread I post in....the forum's getting sick of your old tired ways.
So please stop and thank you in advance.
Ax, salary and value has some merit, and there are lots of ways to look at it. It has merit in the current view of an MVP candidate(thats another reason why it is crazy to look at the MVP in the with/without terms), but not in the best player debate(though it can in how it affects the team)...like I said, it can get complicated. I toyed with the idea of looking into that somewhat, in terms of longevity and peak value, and how having a great peak is more beneficial because that team isn't necessarily the one that has to pay for him. I haven't formulated anything of any validity at all on it, except the obvious...lower salary the better(except most all start low and finish high, so it will usually equal out in the long run anyway). blah, I'm rambling out loud.
I pointed out that Arod's problem wasn't motivation, it was incredible pressure by the press and yanks so-called 'fans' booing him at every turn.
Jeter stepped up a couple years ago and publicly defended giambi after his juicing came to public knowledge....he should have done the same for Arod.
That is all. Resume your flaming.