AL MVP: Justin Morneau
yankeeno7
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Congratulations to Justin Morneau! Well deserved on a great season!
Now all of the Jeter whiners can be relieved!!!
Now all of the Jeter whiners can be relieved!!!
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yankeeno7
Posts: 9,243 ✭✭✭
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Quite a few guys could have won it this year. Some had better years -- marginally -- than Morneau. But by one traditional definition of MVP -- the one guy, more than anyone else, whose absence from the lineup would have had the greatest negative impact on their team. In fact, by that common definition, Yankees players are at a disadvantage because their lineup is so loaded that losing any *one* of those bats would still leave you with a pretty darn potent lineup.
-- Yogi Berra
HOWEVER!! In this case, Morneau wasn't even the MVP OF HIS OWN TEAM! He was the third most important player on the Twins last season, and he somehow walks away with the league award?
Here is the breakdown of overall offensive batting production...Runs produced above average player...
Jeter 39
Mauer 36
Morneau 31
Jeter and Mauer manage the two toughest and most important positions in the game, and Mauer is the absolute best defensive catcher in the game! By virtue of already being ahead of Morneau offensively, and recognizing their importance on the defensive side of the coin, it should be a no brainer as to which were the better players...responsible for saving/creating his team the most runs(which is the most valuable commodity, period.).
We already know that Morneau is behind both players offensively, and defensively. The third aspect is baserunning.
Jeter 34 SB....5 CS
Mauer 8 SB...3 CS
Morneau 3 SB...3 CS
In laymen's terms, Jeter's stolen base prowess has equal value to about 5-6 more Home Runs. Morneua's stolen base prowess has equal value to appx NEGATIVE ONE home run. I also think it is safe to conclude that Jeter went first to third more often, and second to home more often as well. Add that to the offensive advantage that Jeter has on Morneau, then it is an easy offensive victory for Jeter. Factor in the defensive equation, and it should be a no-brainer...expect people get blurred by total RBI, just ask Juan Gonzalez who stole a couple of awards because of this. Gosh the hypocrisy of the writers is terrible over the years(just look at Barry larkin's MVP year). Let them vote on who has the best sentence structure, and not analyze baseball, because they sure aren't good at doing that.
Steve
Good job by the voters.
Did you notice, one guy voted Jeter 6th?
Steve
Jeter had a fine year, but Morneau was more valuable to his team.
How do you view the NL MVP?
Shane
<< <i> I said earlier that I did not think Ortiz was the MVP this year (he clearly was in 2005, however) and Jeter really was in the running only as some sort of "lifetime achievement" award candidate - his stats were not reflective of an MVP, nor were his skills necessarily needed for the Yankees to finish where they did.
>>
First of all ... CONGRATS to Morneau!
Jerry, Jeter didn't have WHAT stats? Do you mean nothing but home runs and RBI's that second tier "fans" think are the only things that make up a MVP? Are you a second tier fan Jer?
Anyway, I am pleased to see that Ortiz was stuffed where he ought to be. BEHIND Jeter. Ortiz is not a ball player. He is a fat man that can swing the bat. But no ballplayer and therefore NEVER a MVP.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Congrats Justin, the second Canadian (?) to win the MVP in the majors.
Jay
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
He was a better offensive player, what else do you want? What you are really saying is that he didn't have 130 RBI.
Again, if an MVP is tied to how 'valuable' he is in relation to his teammates ability or inability, then that simply renders such award as a novelty.
NL MVP was Albert pujols...or should I say the best player in the league this year was Albert Pujols. I should probably differentiate between the two, as the 'MVP' as currently voted is a team achivement award(or lack of team achievement because if your teammates are just bad enough to make your presence enough to finsih two games ahead of the next team, then you get much more consideration than a guy who was better than you, but had more better players). Don't people see the folly in this criteria and thinking?
Anyway,
Jeter was ABSOLUTELY the best player in the AL this past season.
Pujols was the best in the NL.
If you look at Pujols he put up 69 runs better than average, and Howard 67. Howard was a butcher in the field. Pujols was not. Pujols missing 19 games hurt him, though he was still responsible for more runs than Howard.
I find very stupid that one year the writers recognize a SS(Larkin) with numbers like this......319/.394/.492, 16 HR, 66 RBI....AND MISSING 31 GAMES!!!!, AN MVP! Then Jeter does not get that nod, nor Alex Rodriguez in other years(Gonzalez stole one from him).
I also find it stupid that writers downgrade Pujols for missing 19 games, and then recognize Barry Larkin as MVP even though he missed 31 games!
I just shake my head.
<< <i>I just shake my head. >>
So do I, as numbers alone do not determine a player's importance, or 'value' to their team.
Jeter off the yankees = yet another yankees playoff appearance.
Morneau off the Twins = the twins don't make the playoffs, let alone win the division.
I am surprised at the award going to Justin because it was his first great year. If you followed the Twins, you saw that both Morneau and the team started slowly and then took off dramatically, making it look like as Justin went so did the team.
MVP is, and always has been an award that is kind of hard to define, is it "best" player, or "best" player on a playoff team, etc.
I think Mauer was very valuable also, and Jeter had a great year as well. I think it boiled down to a guy who hit with power and average with a high number of RBI. Fielding and baserunning don't seem to be given much value. Obviously catcher and shortstop are more demanding/important positions than 1st base as well.
That being said, I think it is a fine choice. Way to go big guy!
JB
<< <i>Jeter off the yankees = yet another yankees playoff appearance.
Morneau off the Twins = the twins don't make the playoffs, let alone win the division. >>
I'm sure skinpinch's head hurts from banging his head on this particular wall, so I'll give him a break.
By this "logic" if you are a member of a great team you can never be MVP. If you are a member of a really lousy team, you can never be MVP. As skinpinch said, this "logic" renders the MVP a novelty: "best player on a team that wasn't too good or too bad, that was in a division without another team that was too good and ended up winning that division by not too much". As stupid as that is, it's just plain farcical when the third best player on such a team wins the award.
Morneau as MVP is just silly, as bad a pick as Willie Hernandez in 1984 or Andre Dawson in 1987.
I am especially surprised that Mauer didnt pick up more first place votes. I thought that is what was going to help Jeter win the MVP. Frank Thomas 3rd in MVP voting? You gotta be kidding! I cant believe he was voted higher than Dye!
<< <i>
<< <i>I just shake my head. >>
So do I, as numbers alone do not determine a player's importance, or 'value' to their team.
Jeter off the yankees = yet another yankees playoff appearance.
Morneau off the Twins = the twins don't make the playoffs, let alone win the division. >>
Moreau off the Twins = No playoffs? I disagree, Cuddyer, Maur, Santana and Liriano ( I know he got injured ) added major input to the Twins success.
<< <i>I read that one writer had Jeter 6th in the voting, no doubt a Sox fan, lol! >>
Actually, he was from Chicago. A damn fine city it is...
<< <i>Ctsox, Jeter didn't have the stats?
He was a better offensive player, what else do you want? What you are really saying is that he didn't have 130 RBI.
Again, if an MVP is tied to how 'valuable' he is in relation to his teammates ability or inability, then that simply renders such award as a novelty.
NL MVP was Albert pujols...or should I say the best player in the league this year was Albert Pujols. I should probably differentiate between the two, as the 'MVP' as currently voted is a team achivement award(or lack of team achievement because if your teammates are just bad enough to make your presence enough to finsih two games ahead of the next team, then you get much more consideration than a guy who was better than you, but had more better players). Don't people see the folly in this criteria and thinking?
>>
Skin, we're going to have to agree to disagree here - and I know you will post pages and pages of statistical analysis showing the merits of Jeter, but it doesn't matter. You have to acknowledge that a part of the MVP award is tough to quantify with stats - it's how the player's prescence on the team made the team better, or worse. Jeter suffers here, not really his fault, but because he's not terribly significant to the overall outcome of the Yankee lineup (I hear Dan smashing his monitor right about now). Look, the Yanks lost Sheffield and Matsui, and it hardly mattered in the end. The lineup was so filled with top players, that you can drop somebody in and hardly miss a beat (except pitching, which was their downfall).
And yes, on the subject of stats, here is what you cannot get past -
Morneau .321 34 HR 130 RBI
Jeter .344 14 HR 97 RBI
I realize Jeter bats second, and doesn't have to hit HR's. Who cares? It's not relevant...either you have the stats, or you don't. Morneau, Mauer, and even Ortiz did. Jeter falls short.
Morneau deserves this MVP award. And NOT because of his glittery stats alone. Good for him and good for Twins fans
This "angle" that a guy who is in a lineup of very good players should be knocked down a few pegs is laughable. No doubt these guys never played the game or understand it.
and Jerry ...... smashing my screen?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Sure, Ortiz is 'just a bat', but don't blame him for playing a position that MLB has defined. Defense really isn't that much of a determing factor (hell, look at who wins golden gloves). The anti-DH bias that still exists is astonishing.
he also was named on more 1st and 2nd place ballots then the winner.
guys get bonuses for coming in 6th place in the mvp voting.
the bottom line here is that the voters (as a body) chose Morneau.
Good for him, good for the Twins fans and organization. However the Twins are not some slouch team either and Morneau benifited from that lineup as well.
kudos to morneau he is a very deserving mvp.
nothing wrong with coming in 2nd.
nothing wrong with getting a 6th place vote either.
Steve
ANY MVP candidate position player holds more value over ANY DH MVP candidate evry day and week and month of the year.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>Defense is a BIG determining factor. Those guys are out in the field defending for 1,458 half innings per year while a DH gets splinters in his a$$. ANY supposed stat "shortfall" is most definatley made up in VALUE out in that field. >>
While they may be defending that many half innings, how many plays are they actually making?
Jeter had a grand total of 610 chances, or 4 per game. Please don't insult our intelligence and think that 4 total chances a game is making that much of a difference in the outcome of the game.
4 chances has more of an outcome then zero chances.
I do agree though if any DH is deserving it is Big Papi.
Steve
Your last post makes no sense whatsoever
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Thank you for agreeing with me about Pujols. You have a way of breaking things down like most do not. I really believe that they voted for Howard because of the power numbers.
Shane
<< <i>Plays Ax? Well, I am not insulting anybodys intelligence sir. It does not take much warmth in the head to know that guys in the field are on the move every play, backing up bases, cutting balls off, making throws to the plate, making plays at bases etc, etc.
Your last post makes no sense whatsoever
Well your attempt to overstate a defender's importance in the field by stating how many innings they are playing the field didn't make a heck of a lot of sense, either.
<< <i>
Well your attempt to overstate a defender's importance in the field by stating how many innings they are playing the field didn't make a heck of a lot of sense, either. >>
No, I stated the importance of the defender in the field as compared to a DH sitting on his a$$. Makes lots of sense
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Funny how much a year can change one's attitude.
"I'm flattered and honored to have been considered for the American League Most Valuable Player Award. I want to congratulate Justin Morneau on this well-deserved honor. He is a special player, and I suspect this won't be the last time you will hear his name mentioned when awards are being passed out. "
Very classy .... unlike other "candidates" this season
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>classy despite being sand-bagged by 2 Boston dingleberries (aka journalistas) whom placed him 4th and 6th. >>
The guy who voted him sixth was allegedly a chicago writer.
Do you have facts to base this allegation on, or are you simply hating the more deserving winner?
Morneau scored 2420 points whilst Jeter recieved 2410 points.
had the dim-witted sole (you say Chicago and offer proof as usual) whom placed DJ 6th had even the small little weiny of a Bosox fan...and placed his hater vote for place 4....Jeter wins by virtue of more first place votes...
enjoy you're tiny victory and spin it into a tizzy like a little schoolgirl if you must.
bottom line is Jeter got sand-bagged.
Congrats to Morneau and his 15 minutes of fame.
at least the paper tiger Big Floppi Ortiz didn't get any more respect than deserved.
<< <i>
Morneau scored 2420 points whilst Jeter recieved 2410 points.
>>
Really? Where do you get this score from? Everything I read had 320-306.
<< <i>had the dim-witted sole (you say Chicago and offer proof as usual) whom placed DJ 6th had even the small little weiny of a Bosox fan...and placed his hater vote for place 4....Jeter wins by virtue of more first place votes... >>
Morneau had 15 first place votes, Jeter 12.
<< <i>enjoy you're tiny victory and spin it into a tizzy like a little schoolgirl if you must. >>
Who's in a tizzy? I think perhaps you should read posts before you make snap judgements.
<< <i>bottom line is Jeter got sand-bagged. >>
Says you...
<< <i>Congrats to Morneau and his 15 minutes of fame.
at least the paper tiger Big Floppi Ortiz didn't get any more respect than deserved. >>
Paper tiger? I'm sure you'd say that to his face, right?
......I think 99% of anybody who is anybody in baseball understands the absurdity of this vote...unfortunatly, I doubt that applies around here in this poisoned palace of fantasy.
again...congrats to Morneau and all the Jetter haters...you own the day...rejoice and party..but before you get too high and fly into the bright lights like a moth...don't forget springs a comin' and so is reality.
You came out from behind the woodshed for that mess? ESPN reported the guy who voted Jeter 6th was from Chicago - it's really not that big of a deal, but funny nonetheless. Have another one, man - but don't drink and drive this holiday season...
Signed,
Red Sox Nation
Dude wasn't even MVP of his own team.
3 good months does not an MVP make - Morneau's BA was in the lower .200s well into June.
No congrats here - Jeter got jobbed, Morneau stole the award...
<< <i>Paper tiger? I'm sure you'd say that to his face, right? >>
'cause you get hauled off in a body bag, just like if you called Arod "Arod the meek" to his face, right?
<< <i>
Dude wasn't even MVP of his own team.
3 good months does not an MVP make - Morneau's BA was in the lower .200s well into June.
No congrats here - Jeter got jobbed, Morneau stole the award... >>
When you start using the post as reasons you believe something - well you have issues. No congrats here? Wow, shows you what a sportsman you are.
The yankee fans are utterly predictable....grow up already.
Again, the "where would they be with or without him statement," pure nonsense, and it makes the award a novelty using that criteria. For example...
Justin Morneua won the MVP because he happend to have Johan Santana as his teammate, while Jermaine Dye who had a superior season was stuck with Javier Vazquez...which caused his team to not be as good, and thus his importance seemingly less relevant in the eyes of voters/fans. Cannot the folly be seen in the current line of thinking?
<< <i>But Jeter doesn't play for the Twins. He plays for the Yankees. He plays in New York City. He makes a lot of commercials, and he dates a lot of starlets, and he makes a lot of money, and if you think that doesn't count in the minds of the people who cast these votes, you're a greater believer in the purity of human nature than I am.
>>
And this gem -
<< <i>And here's the thing: This is only the warm-up. Just wait another 15 years or so, when it's time for the same assemblage of writers to size up Jeter's credentials as a Hall of Famer. Just wait, especially, when the arbiters of immortality decide whether Jeter's career merits the honor of a first-ballot selection, or whether they'll force him to endure a few years of consolation phone calls first.
>>
He cries on with this finale (I want to send him a case of Kleenex) -
<< <i>He should have won. He didn't. Now save your breath and wait, because in 15 years or so, you'll be hearing exactly the same arguments from exactly the same precincts. It's best to get used to it early. For Jeter and for his army of fans >>
Wow. I would have expected better from the NY press - instead of the crying game.