<< <i>Equal treatment under the law is all I ask. But when it comes to state taxes such fair treatment is non-existent.
That’s why I support doing away with sales taxes on coins, or at the very minimum having the law in place where it goes away if the invoice is for $1,000 or more. >>
Your two statements seem to contradict each other. Why do you think that the wealthy deserve a break on sales tax?
<< <i>Equal treatment under the law is all I ask. But when it comes to state taxes such fair treatment is non-existent.
That’s why I support doing away with sales taxes on coins, or at the very minimum having the law in place where it goes away if the invoice is for $1,000 or more. >>
Your two statements seem to contradict each other. Why do you think that the wealthy deserve a break on sales tax?
Oh, that's right, you're a republican! >>
Let's see you have courage to answer this question truthfully. You are at a coin show and you make a deal on piece for $1,000. The dealer writes out the invoice and at the bottom adds a line for sales tax, which is 5% or $50. That’s the law in Massachusetts. If you don’t write out a separate line for the taxes, you are subject to a $100 fine for each occurrence.
If a dealer writes in the sales tax line or tells that sales tax is included in the price, would you complain to him about that, or would you pay it willingly? Would you do business with him again knowing full well that there are others at the show who don’t charge sales tax? Be honest.
I agree with you that the $1,000 total invoice exemption has elitist aspects to it. But when you are grasping at straws to get some tax relief so that honest dealers and dealers who have shops can compete on as level a playing field as possible, you look for compromises. That is the way it has worked on many states including the arch blue state of Massachusetts.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Noe will be in federal prison for 27 months in Florida most likely after he is evaluated at Milan, MI Federal prison. After his 27 months in Federal prison he will be transferred back to Ohio most likely Ashland prison to serve out his 18 year state prison sentence. He will do at least 15 years in state prison before he may become eligible for parole based on his crimes. He will be 70 years old by then. The restitution hearing is set for this Monday. His family will probably lose everything they have because of what crimes Noe committed.
I do not know all the details of the Noe case but no one seems to believe he was innocent. The question is whether his case was a unique one in an otherwise straight up environment or whether there is an unlying currwnt of behavior in the coin business that allowed this well positioned and allegedly savy guy to believe he could get away with this scheme.
After reading much more detail about the case, I think it was too harsh of a penalty. Isn't the prison system in place to rehabilitate citizens? The guy really screwed up badly and definitely needs to be punished severely, but a total of 20 years is a veritable DEATH sentence. He will never make it. I think he would have learned his lesson by doing 5 years in prison AND repaying any funds that he stole.
<< <i>After reading much more detail about the case, I think it was too harsh of a penalty. Isn't the prison system in place to rehabilitate citizens? The guy really screwed up badly and definitely needs to be punished severely, but a total of 20 years is a veritable DEATH sentence. He will never make it. I think he would have learned his lesson by doing 5 years in prison AND repaying any funds that he stole. >>
You advocate a penalty of 5 years for messing around with $50 million of someone else's (i.e. Ohio residents') money? What deterrent is that?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I guess it shows what happens to you when you have no political friends left. My guess is Noe was pretty aggressive Republican who is instrumental bringing the GOP to power in Ohio. As soon as he slipped, blood was in the water, and Democrats of all stripes were ready to pounce. At the same time his illegal activities angered his Republican friends as he became the Ohio poster child for the Democrats "Republican culture of corruption" campaign. Winning political campaigns takes a lot of work and money, and when a guy ruins it for the party, it’s now surprise that the party loyalists will be very angry. Everything fell apart for him, and now he’s being made as an example.
My guess is he will service seven or eight years and be quietly released after everyone has forgotten about the case.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>After reading much more detail about the case, I think it was too harsh of a penalty. Isn't the prison system in place to rehabilitate citizens? The guy really screwed up badly and definitely needs to be punished severely, but a total of 20 years is a veritable DEATH sentence. He will never make it. I think he would have learned his lesson by doing 5 years in prison AND repaying any funds that he stole. >>
You advocate a penalty of 5 years for messing around with $50 million of someone else's (i.e. Ohio residents') money? What deterrent is that? >>
Compared to what other white collar criminals get for stealing BILLIONS this does seem relatively harsh.
<< <i>After reading much more detail about the case, I think it was too harsh of a penalty. Isn't the prison system in place to rehabilitate citizens? The guy really screwed up badly and definitely needs to be punished severely, but a total of 20 years is a veritable DEATH sentence. He will never make it. I think he would have learned his lesson by doing 5 years in prison AND repaying any funds that he stole. >>
You advocate a penalty of 5 years for messing around with $50 million of someone else's (i.e. Ohio residents') money? What deterrent is that? >>
Messing around. Is there a charge for messing around? He didn't steal 50 mil right?
Let's see, we have scumbag politicians who do thousands of times more than this and receive a lifetime of benefits as well as masses of brain dead followers who seem willing to even send their children to foreign countries to kill or be killed because the same scumbag politicians make claims, in most cases erroneous claims that they are defending freedoms or defending our country.
So you are suggesting that there should be a deterrent in place for criminals like Noe. I agree. ( not that anything we say means anything to these people but what the heck )However let's also think what is justice?
It has to be equally applied to EVERYONE or else it's not justice.
For many years white collar crime or victimless crimes went virtually unpunished (probation/community service) with little or no incarceration time.
Today’s progressive judges/juries are no longer tolerant of embezzlement or so-called-victimless crimes.
The message is being sent to all would-be criminals. Whether dressed in a tie or in a ski-mask...you commit a crime in this state, you will get the maximum allowed by law.
I see nothing wrong with a deterant as such, placed in force by the people for the people.
<< <i> Let's see you have courage to answer this question truthfully. You are at a coin show and you make a deal on piece for $1,000. The dealer writes out the invoice and at the bottom adds a line for sales tax, which is 5% or $50. That’s the law in Massachusetts. If you don’t write out a separate line for the taxes, you are subject to a $100 fine for each occurrence.
If a dealer writes in the sales tax line or tells that sales tax is included in the price, would you complain to him about that, or would you pay it willingly? Would you do business with him again knowing full well that there are others at the show who don’t charge sales tax? Be honest.
I agree with you that the $1,000 total invoice exemption has elitist aspects to it. But when you are grasping at straws to get some tax relief so that honest dealers and dealers who have shops can compete on as level a playing field as possible, you look for compromises. That is the way it has worked on many states including the arch blue state of Massachusetts. >>
Honestly, I have no problem paying the sales tax. Would I love to pay less? Sure, but if it's a coin I want and the price is acceptable, I'll pay it. The only difference is knowing beforehand that the price does or doesn't include sales tax. If we agree on $1050 with tax, I don't care how it's written on the invoice; the $1050 at the bottom is the price I'm paying, and what we agreed to.
Whether or not others charge sales tax is irrelevant. I don't seek out people who break the law; I seek out people who have a coin I want at a price I'm willing to pay. And if others aren't charging tax, turn them in. They're breaking the law, and you're claiming damage. If you're going to complain about the damages, why not work to have the law enforced fully and level the playing field? Or, don't charge sales tax and leave it all to chance.
All that said, I take exception to your quote:
<< <i>Yes, Noe's crimes were a poor excuse to punish Ohio coin collectors, but that's what the Democrats did. The only comment one can make about the Democrats is "typical." >>
My only response, which is just as ignorant as your comment, is that Noe stole from the poor to make himself richer. He's a Republican. All I can say about that is "typical."
People are greedy, and those in government pander to their supporters to gain power. That's how it has worked and always will work. And for the record, I should state that I think both the Democratic and Republican parties suck as overall organizations, in part because they're made of politicians, all of whom suck, as well.
Based on what I have read, Noe was just screwed in the head and made some really bad decisions. He used money for personal reasons, but he was still managing the fund and the fund was making money for the State of Ohio. According to court reports, he was planning on replacing the money he "borrowed" through future gains in the fund and from his own pocket. Again, really, really stupid idea and it amounts to stealing. I think some of the managers at the Ohio W/C should be punished as well. Who was watching this guy? They invest $50 million and don't bother to audit things from day one???
However.....compare the supposed $2 million dollars of misappropriated funds from the fund to the $250 million that was lost forever by another idiodic scheme that the Ohio W/C invested in a few years earlier (derivitives). That's a quarter of a BILLION dollars......gone forever. Nobody in that mess even got a slap on the hand. I have received more punishment for a speeding ticket than anyone involved in that scheme did for losing $250,000,000.
The point is that it IS necessary to punish people for crimes. That's what I meant by rehabilitation; the punishment will make one think twice about doing it again. But what's the proper punishment for poorly managing a fund or even stealing the money? I think several years in a damp, dark prison cell will do the trick for someone like Noe, but 20 years is a death sentence. If he makes it out alive, he will be of no use to society by then.
And furthermore, why should we have to pay to feed and house someone for 20 years? Let him out if 5 and make his own way and, hopefully, contribute to society.
Right. Whatever amount he stole or misappropriated, it was a small fraction of $50 million. >>
You are correct, I apologize for my error. The records were so screwed up and there were so many fraudulent and/or nonexistent transactions that no one, probably including Noe himself, knows how much money was stolen.
I still don't think his sentence was too harsh. I will agree with previous posters that others who stole money including the Enron crooks got off way too lightly.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Some good points made: <<<Let's see, we have scumbag politicians who do thousands of times more than this and receive a lifetime of benefits
The only comment one can make about the Democrats is "typical." He's a Republican. All I can say about that is "typical."
People are greedy, and those in government pander to their supporters to gain power. That's how it has worked and always will work. And for the record, I should state that I think both the Democratic and Republican parties suck as overall organizations, in part because they're made of politicians, all of whom suck, as well.>>>
The problem is that the politicians in both the Dem & Rep parties are PROFESSIONAL politicians. They are all a bunch of slimy lawyers that write the laws that govern our country & states and they write the laws to benefit themselves and in such a confusing way us common people that aren’t lawyers have no idea of what the laws mean. If we want a law fefined then we have to have a court of more slimy lawyers to define what the laws mean. Kinda like having the fox guard the henhouse right? The politicians that are supposed to be representing us are doing nothing more that protecting their interests and lining their own pockets at our expense. Of course the Reps look out for the rich but don’t be so naive as to think the Dems look out for the poor either. That’s a bunch of BS! WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW A POOR DEMOCRAT POLITICIAN????
Anyway, getting sidetracked here, I agree that Noe’s sentence was a bit harsh compared to what professional career politicians get away with but Noe wanted to play with the big boys and he got slammed because he was a peon and took the fall. Legend would probably call him a ”wannabe” scammer. LOL!
The whole trial was probably rigged, that’s why he didn’t have a defense, hell even a newbie lawyer can make a most despicable criminal look innocent or at least cast some doubts on his guilt. In another article Michigan posted the other week it was insinuated that Noe had ties to the Mafia; he probably had a late nigh visit from a hoodlum that told him “Hey yous keepa your mouth shut and we’ll look out for your family otherwise yous all be sleeping with da fishes.”
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
<< <i>I'll be able to tell the whole story one of these days - maybe I will take Laura's advice and write a book about my experience.
Mike - Why not tell the story now? >>
Numerous reasons Andy.
Primarily, I have several avenues of litigation that I have yet to undertake to be compensated both contractually and for damages.
Second would be that there are ongoing investigations of people involved with Tom.
And last, but not least, I am still negotiating with Laura to be my manager - she claims that I can get millions for my story.
Mike >>
Mike, are you stating that you are entitled to compensation and damages AND have no liability for any wrongdoing, yourself? If so, what of the various allegations that were made against you and - since I don't recall the precise details or have proof that you wrote it, I will call it - the alleged letter of admission and apology from you that I believewas circulated around a coin show quite some time ago? >>
Mark,
I appreciate your curiosity.
Lawsuit 101 dictates that you do not discuss anything with anybody that might relate to the pending litigation.
But, as I have stated publicly before, the allegations made by Noe and his cronies were/are without basis and were, in my opinion, made to cover up the wrongdoing that was going on in the coin funds. I made this statement WELL BEFORE the State of Ohio took the coin funds away from Tom. Those who have followed this spectacle will remember that in early 2005, in the first article that the Toledo Blade ran regarding the coin funds, I was quoted (correctly) as saying "that the State of Ohio will not be happy when they find out what their 50 million is worth". The alleged letter of "admission and apology" was an email between Tom and myself and relates solely to the treatment I had given an employee of mine - the same employee who has been under criminal investigation. The way that I treated him was not right. I felt badly about it then, and still do. Unfortunately, the way the email was written, it was subject to misinterpretaion and being quoted out of context, both by Tom and the press. As for the rest of your questions - that's what our court system is for.
The whole trial was probably rigged, that’s why he didn’t have a defense, hell even a newbie lawyer can make a most despicable criminal look innocent or at least cast some doubts on his guilt.
Noe had the same lawyer right from the start of the investigation all the way through to the trial. I had a feeling early on that the guy was not very sharp with the kind of legal maneuvers he was making. The prosecution built up a very good documented case against Noe, the defense didn't even call a single witness to testify in favor of Noe. Noe should have accepted the plea deal.
18 years sounds excessive...to the extreme. In my neck of the woods a payroll company stole millions of dollars of 941 taxes from their client companies and bought big homes and lived large. 5 years later they are making restitution, but none of the principals received jail time.
Noe, does not deserve 18 years. Period. This is politics. Both the Principles in high places and the DA This just isn't that kind of crime. Further, the contract was the basis for the defense. Am, I wrong about this; "Didn't the Comp people make money on the coin deals that were comumated?"
From what I know from the trial is the coin funds did not make money at all. Noe's restitution hearing is on monday. From what the forensic accountants can tell is the funds are 13 million short of the original 50 million. Tim Lapointe stated in his testimony that they were planning on paying back the deficit from the 50 million with the next 25 million they were about to recieve from OBWC. He also said Noe used the funds as his personal ATM. The third installment of 25 million was stopped due to the Toledo Blade article and the investigation insued.
The trial was NOT rigged and I do not know how anyone could conceivably even come to that conclusion. The reason why the defense called no witnesses is because they had NO defense. Judge Oswik is a very reputable judge and so is the attorneys on the prosecution. The state documented a very good case with the paper trail. Plain and simple Noe stole from the people.
Noe rolled the dice and did not want to cooperate, take the plea bargain or admit guilt so the state of Ohio sent a strong mesage with his sentence.
I do feel sorry for his family as they stand to lose everything they have for his actions. But when you think you are untouchable.........
<< <i>From what I know from the trial is the coin funds did not make money at all. Noe's restitution hearing is on monday. From what the forensic accountants can tell is the funds are 13 million short of the original 50 million. Tim Lapointe stated in his testimony that they were planning on paying back the deficit from the 50 million with the next 25 million they were about to recieve from OBWC. He also said Noe used the funds as his personal ATM. The third installment of 25 million was stopped due to the Toledo Blade article and the investigation insued. The trial was NOT rigged and I do not know how anyone could conceivably even come to that conclusion. The reason why the defense called no witnesses is because they had NO defense. Judge Oswik is a very reputable judge and so is the attorneys on the prosecution. The state documented a very good case with the paper trail. Plain and simple Noe stole from the people. Noe rolled the dice and did not want to cooperate, take the plea bargain or admit guilt so the state of Ohio sent a strong mesage with his sentence. I do feel sorry for his family as they stand to lose everything they have for his actions. But when you think you are untouchable......... >>
Isn't it true that -- in the State of Florida where Mr Noe bought a multimillion dollar home -- your homestead is protected in bankruptcy and from being forced to sell it to pay restitution? I don't know this for sure. Any lawyers want to chime in here?
Isn't it true that -- in the State of Florida where Mr Noe bought a multimillion dollar home -- your homestead is protected in bankruptcy and from being forced to sell it to pay restitution? I don't know this for sure. Any lawyers want to chime in here? >>
Certainly not if there's tax evasion involved and I think the same is applicable when there's a theft or fraud conviction.
we can certainly speculate about the circumstances, but to think the trial was "rigged" is probably a stretch. most likely, the reason for the stiff sentence was due to the lack of cooperation from Mr. Noe and the current political climate in the country and more importantly, here in Ohio; Republicans have had control of the country for almost eight years and the state government has been dominated by one party rule for at least 16 years. with the recent changes due to the election results things didn't bode well at sentencing. however, i'd assume that the chief reason for such a lengthy sentence was the lack of cooperation. plea bargains are almost always offered and when the evidence is overwhelming for conviction, as it was here, a chance at some kind of reduction is made possible by cooperating, the downside being that without that cooperation the penalty is generally maxxed out.
<< <i>Noe had the same lawyer right from the start of the investigation all the way through to the trial. I had a feeling early on that the guy was not very sharp with the kind of legal maneuvers he was making. The prosecution built up a very good documented case against Noe, the defense didn't even call a single witness to testify in favor of Noe. Noe should have accepted the plea deal. >>
I guarantee you that Noe's attorney is anything but stupid.
It's just pretty darn hard to defend a case where you have no defense and a seemingly endless parade of witnesses testifying to his criminal acts and behavior. The bottom line is that when a trial lawyer is in a no-win situation, the only thing left to do is throw the "Hail Mary" pass and hope that you have a jury comprised of absolute idiots who might buy what you are selling. So, yeah, Wilkinson looked stupid when he tried to convince the jury that, among other things, writing checks to other people and then forging thier signature on the back was not forgery, but "A different way of transferring money". But he's not.
And, yes Noe should have accepted the deal, but Laura hit it right on the head a couple of posts up this page. No remorse, just arrogance to the bitter end.
That probably hurt him at sentencing time. Following this case I got the impression he has a very big ego and an intimidating personality overall. Many people seemed to be walking on egg shells and backing off on confronting him on doing the proper audits that were not being done.
According to Florida law your home is only protected in civil matters not state or federal. This is a state restitution case and the law does not apply. Noe's family will probably lose everything based on his inability to show remorse or admit guilt in his actions. He should have excepted the pleas bargain in August of 2006 it would have helped his family. Just to remind you again his restitution hearing is on Monday.
Presently Noe is in lucas county jail awaiting transfer via the US Marshals to Milan, MI federal prison for evaluation and processing to decide where he will reside during his 27 month federal prison sentence.
<< <i>No remorse, just arrogance to the bitter end. I got the impression he has a very big ego and an intimidating personality overall. Many people seemed to be walking on egg shells and backing off on confronting him. >>
Sounds like he won't do very well in prison. The other prisoners will teach him humility.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>No remorse, just arrogance to the bitter end. I got the impression he has a very big ego and an intimidating personality overall.
but Perry, he was a big-time coin dealer!! >>
Maybe he can start a prison coin club.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
How about Wilfred Brimley? He could take so time off from the Liberty Medical diabetes commercials.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Comments
Mike - Why not tell the story now?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Equal treatment under the law is all I ask. But when it comes to state taxes such fair treatment is non-existent.
That’s why I support doing away with sales taxes on coins, or at the very minimum having the law in place where it goes away if the invoice is for $1,000 or more. >>
Oh, that's right, you're a republican!
Do we know, yet, what the financial outcome was of these "coin funds" after they were liquidated?
<< <i>
<< <i>Equal treatment under the law is all I ask. But when it comes to state taxes such fair treatment is non-existent.
That’s why I support doing away with sales taxes on coins, or at the very minimum having the law in place where it goes away if the invoice is for $1,000 or more. >>
Oh, that's right, you're a republican!
Let's see you have courage to answer this question truthfully. You are at a coin show and you make a deal on piece for $1,000. The dealer writes out the invoice and at the bottom adds a line for sales tax, which is 5% or $50. That’s the law in Massachusetts. If you don’t write out a separate line for the taxes, you are subject to a $100 fine for each occurrence.
If a dealer writes in the sales tax line or tells that sales tax is included in the price, would you complain to him about that, or would you pay it willingly? Would you do business with him again knowing full well that there are others at the show who don’t charge sales tax? Be honest.
I agree with you that the $1,000 total invoice exemption has elitist aspects to it. But when you are grasping at straws to get some tax relief so that honest dealers and dealers who have shops can compete on as level a playing field as possible, you look for compromises. That is the way it has worked on many states including the arch blue state of Massachusetts.
He won't be in camp cupcake like Martha Stewart.
The question is whether his case was a unique one in an otherwise straight up environment or whether there is an unlying currwnt of behavior in the coin business that allowed this well positioned and allegedly savy guy to believe he could get away with this scheme.
After reading much more detail about the case, I think it was too harsh of a penalty. Isn't the prison system in place to rehabilitate citizens? The guy really screwed up badly and definitely needs to be punished severely, but a total of 20 years is a veritable DEATH sentence. He will never make it. I think he would have learned his lesson by doing 5 years in prison AND repaying any funds that he stole.
<< <i>After reading much more detail about the case, I think it was too harsh of a penalty. Isn't the prison system in place to rehabilitate citizens?
No, the prison system is in place to punish people who break the law.
However I would agree that this is over-kill.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>After reading much more detail about the case, I think it was too harsh of a penalty. Isn't the prison system in place to rehabilitate citizens? The guy really screwed up badly and definitely needs to be punished severely, but a total of 20 years is a veritable DEATH sentence. He will never make it. I think he would have learned his lesson by doing 5 years in prison AND repaying any funds that he stole. >>
You advocate a penalty of 5 years for messing around with $50 million of someone else's (i.e. Ohio residents') money? What deterrent is that?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
My guess is he will service seven or eight years and be quietly released after everyone has forgotten about the case.
No IMO.
It's punishment with the objective of hopefully deterring individuals from committing crimes.
The same for the death penalty, it is punishment first, hopefully a deterrent second.
Joe.
<< <i>
<< <i>After reading much more detail about the case, I think it was too harsh of a penalty. Isn't the prison system in place to rehabilitate citizens? The guy really screwed up badly and definitely needs to be punished severely, but a total of 20 years is a veritable DEATH sentence. He will never make it. I think he would have learned his lesson by doing 5 years in prison AND repaying any funds that he stole. >>
You advocate a penalty of 5 years for messing around with $50 million of someone else's (i.e. Ohio residents') money? What deterrent is that? >>
Compared to what other white collar criminals get for stealing BILLIONS this does seem relatively harsh.
<< <i>
<< <i>After reading much more detail about the case, I think it was too harsh of a penalty. Isn't the prison system in place to rehabilitate citizens? The guy really screwed up badly and definitely needs to be punished severely, but a total of 20 years is a veritable DEATH sentence. He will never make it. I think he would have learned his lesson by doing 5 years in prison AND repaying any funds that he stole. >>
You advocate a penalty of 5 years for messing around with $50 million of someone else's (i.e. Ohio residents') money? What deterrent is that? >>
Messing around. Is there a charge for messing around? He didn't steal 50 mil right?
Let's see, we have scumbag politicians who do thousands of times more than this and receive a lifetime of benefits as well as masses of brain dead followers who seem willing to even send their children to foreign countries to kill or be killed because the same scumbag politicians make claims, in most cases erroneous claims that they are defending freedoms or defending our country.
So you are suggesting that there should be a deterrent in place for criminals like Noe. I agree. ( not that anything we say means anything to these people but what the heck )However let's also think what is justice?
It has to be equally applied to EVERYONE or else it's not justice.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
For many years white collar crime or victimless crimes went virtually unpunished (probation/community service) with little or no incarceration time.
Today’s progressive judges/juries are no longer tolerant of embezzlement or so-called-victimless crimes.
The message is being sent to all would-be criminals. Whether dressed in a tie or in a ski-mask...you commit a crime in this state, you will get the maximum allowed by law.
I see nothing wrong with a deterant as such, placed in force by the people for the people.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>
Let's see you have courage to answer this question truthfully. You are at a coin show and you make a deal on piece for $1,000. The dealer writes out the invoice and at the bottom adds a line for sales tax, which is 5% or $50. That’s the law in Massachusetts. If you don’t write out a separate line for the taxes, you are subject to a $100 fine for each occurrence.
If a dealer writes in the sales tax line or tells that sales tax is included in the price, would you complain to him about that, or would you pay it willingly? Would you do business with him again knowing full well that there are others at the show who don’t charge sales tax? Be honest.
I agree with you that the $1,000 total invoice exemption has elitist aspects to it. But when you are grasping at straws to get some tax relief so that honest dealers and dealers who have shops can compete on as level a playing field as possible, you look for compromises. That is the way it has worked on many states including the arch blue state of Massachusetts. >>
Honestly, I have no problem paying the sales tax. Would I love to pay less? Sure, but if it's a coin I want and the price is acceptable, I'll pay it. The only difference is knowing beforehand that the price does or doesn't include sales tax. If we agree on $1050 with tax, I don't care how it's written on the invoice; the $1050 at the bottom is the price I'm paying, and what we agreed to.
Whether or not others charge sales tax is irrelevant. I don't seek out people who break the law; I seek out people who have a coin I want at a price I'm willing to pay. And if others aren't charging tax, turn them in. They're breaking the law, and you're claiming damage. If you're going to complain about the damages, why not work to have the law enforced fully and level the playing field? Or, don't charge sales tax and leave it all to chance.
All that said, I take exception to your quote:
<< <i>Yes, Noe's crimes were a poor excuse to punish Ohio coin collectors, but that's what the Democrats did. The only comment one can make about the Democrats is "typical." >>
My only response, which is just as ignorant as your comment, is that Noe stole from the poor to make himself richer. He's a Republican. All I can say about that is "typical."
People are greedy, and those in government pander to their supporters to gain power. That's how it has worked and always will work. And for the record, I should state that I think both the Democratic and Republican parties suck as overall organizations, in part because they're made of politicians, all of whom suck, as well.
Based on what I have read, Noe was just screwed in the head and made some really bad decisions. He used money for personal reasons, but he was still managing the fund and the fund was making money for the State of Ohio. According to court reports, he was planning on replacing the money he "borrowed" through future gains in the fund and from his own pocket. Again, really, really stupid idea and it amounts to stealing. I think some of the managers at the Ohio W/C should be punished as well. Who was watching this guy? They invest $50 million and don't bother to audit things from day one???
However.....compare the supposed $2 million dollars of misappropriated funds from the fund to the $250 million that was lost forever by another idiodic scheme that the Ohio W/C invested in a few years earlier (derivitives). That's a quarter of a BILLION dollars......gone forever. Nobody in that mess even got a slap on the hand. I have received more punishment for a speeding ticket than anyone involved in that scheme did for losing $250,000,000.
The point is that it IS necessary to punish people for crimes. That's what I meant by rehabilitation; the punishment will make one think twice about doing it again. But what's the proper punishment for poorly managing a fund or even stealing the money? I think several years in a damp, dark prison cell will do the trick for someone like Noe, but 20 years is a death sentence. If he makes it out alive, he will be of no use to society by then.
And furthermore, why should we have to pay to feed and house someone for 20 years? Let him out if 5 and make his own way and, hopefully, contribute to society.
<< <i><<He didn't steal 50 mil right?>>
Right. Whatever amount he stole or misappropriated, it was a small fraction of $50 million. >>
You are correct, I apologize for my error. The records were so screwed up and there were so many fraudulent and/or nonexistent transactions that no one, probably including Noe himself, knows how much money was stolen.
I still don't think his sentence was too harsh. I will agree with previous posters that others who stole money including the Enron crooks got off way too lightly.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<<<Let's see, we have scumbag politicians who do thousands of times more than this and receive a lifetime of benefits
The only comment one can make about the Democrats is "typical."
He's a Republican. All I can say about that is "typical."
People are greedy, and those in government pander to their supporters to gain power. That's how it has worked and always will work. And for the record, I should state that I think both the Democratic and Republican parties suck as overall organizations, in part because they're made of politicians, all of whom suck, as well.>>>
The problem is that the politicians in both the Dem & Rep parties are PROFESSIONAL politicians. They are all a bunch of slimy lawyers that write the laws that govern our country & states and they write the laws to benefit themselves and in such a confusing way us common people that aren’t lawyers have no idea of what the laws mean. If we want a law fefined then we have to have a court of more slimy lawyers to define what the laws mean. Kinda like having the fox guard the henhouse right?
Of course the Reps look out for the rich but don’t be so naive as to think the Dems look out for the poor either. That’s a bunch of BS! WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW A POOR DEMOCRAT POLITICIAN????
Anyway, getting sidetracked here, I agree that Noe’s sentence was a bit harsh compared to what professional career politicians get away with but Noe wanted to play with the big boys and he got slammed because he was a peon and took the fall. Legend would probably call him a ”wannabe” scammer. LOL!
The whole trial was probably rigged, that’s why he didn’t have a defense, hell even a newbie lawyer can make a most despicable criminal look innocent or at least cast some doubts on his guilt. In another article Michigan posted the other week it was insinuated that Noe had ties to the Mafia; he probably had a late nigh visit from a hoodlum that told him “Hey yous keepa your mouth shut and we’ll look out for your family otherwise yous all be sleeping with da fishes.”
<< <i>I'll be able to tell the whole story one of these days - maybe I will take Laura's advice and write a book about my experience.
Mike - Why not tell the story now? >>
Numerous reasons Andy.
Primarily, I have several avenues of litigation that I have yet to undertake to be compensated both contractually and for damages.
Second would be that there are ongoing investigations of people involved with Tom.
And last, but not least, I am still negotiating with Laura to be my manager - she claims that I can get millions for my story.
Mike
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'll be able to tell the whole story one of these days - maybe I will take Laura's advice and write a book about my experience.
Mike - Why not tell the story now? >>
Numerous reasons Andy.
Primarily, I have several avenues of litigation that I have yet to undertake to be compensated both contractually and for damages.
Second would be that there are ongoing investigations of people involved with Tom.
And last, but not least, I am still negotiating with Laura to be my manager - she claims that I can get millions for my story.
Mike >>
Mike, are you stating that you are entitled to compensation and damages AND have no liability for any wrongdoing, yourself? If so, what of the various allegations that were made against you and - since I don't recall the precise details or have proof that you wrote it, I will call it - the alleged letter of admission and apology from you that I believewas circulated around a coin show quite some time ago? >>
Mark,
I appreciate your curiosity.
Lawsuit 101 dictates that you do not discuss anything with anybody that might relate to the pending litigation.
But, as I have stated publicly before, the allegations made by Noe and his cronies were/are without basis and were, in my opinion, made to cover up the wrongdoing that was going on in the coin funds. I made this statement WELL BEFORE the State of Ohio took the coin funds away from Tom. Those who have followed this spectacle will remember that in early 2005, in the first article that the Toledo Blade ran regarding the coin funds, I was quoted (correctly) as saying "that the State of Ohio will not be happy when they find out what their 50 million is worth". The alleged letter of "admission and apology" was an email between Tom and myself and relates solely to the treatment I had given an employee of mine - the same employee who has been under criminal investigation. The way that I treated him was not right. I felt badly about it then, and still do. Unfortunately, the way the email was written, it was subject to misinterpretaion and being quoted out of context, both by Tom and the press. As for the rest of your questions - that's what our court system is for.
Mike
Noe had the same lawyer right from the start of the investigation all the way through to the trial. I had a feeling early on that the
guy was not very sharp with the kind of legal maneuvers he was making. The prosecution built up a very good documented case
against Noe, the defense didn't even call a single witness to testify in favor of Noe. Noe should have accepted the plea deal.
I have seen many murderers get shorter sentences.
Tyler
This is politics. Both the Principles in high places and the DA
This just isn't that kind of crime. Further, the contract was the
basis for the defense.
Am, I wrong about this; "Didn't the Comp people make money on
the coin deals that were comumated?"
The trial was NOT rigged and I do not know how anyone could conceivably even come to that conclusion. The reason why the defense called no witnesses is because they had NO defense. Judge Oswik is a very reputable judge and so is the attorneys on the prosecution. The state documented a very good case with the paper trail. Plain and simple Noe stole from the people.
Noe rolled the dice and did not want to cooperate, take the plea bargain or admit guilt so the state of Ohio sent a strong mesage with his sentence.
I do feel sorry for his family as they stand to lose everything they have for his actions. But when you think you are untouchable.........
<< <i>From what I know from the trial is the coin funds did not make money at all. Noe's restitution hearing is on monday. From what the forensic accountants can tell is the funds are 13 million short of the original 50 million. Tim Lapointe stated in his testimony that they were planning on paying back the deficit from the 50 million with the next 25 million they were about to recieve from OBWC. He also said Noe used the funds as his personal ATM. The third installment of 25 million was stopped due to the Toledo Blade article and the investigation insued. The trial was NOT rigged and I do not know how anyone could conceivably even come to that conclusion. The reason why the defense called no witnesses is because they had NO defense. Judge Oswik is a very reputable judge and so is the attorneys on the prosecution. The state documented a very good case with the paper trail. Plain and simple Noe stole from the people. Noe rolled the dice and did not want to cooperate, take the plea bargain or admit guilt so the state of Ohio sent a strong mesage with his sentence. I do feel sorry for his family as they stand to lose everything they have for his actions. But when you think you are untouchable......... >>
Isn't it true that -- in the State of Florida where Mr Noe bought a multimillion dollar home -- your homestead is protected in bankruptcy and from being forced to sell it to pay restitution? I don't know this for sure. Any lawyers want to chime in here?
Coin Rarities Online
Certainly not if there's tax evasion involved and I think the same is applicable when there's a theft or fraud conviction.
Heres a blog with info on the subject BLOG
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Question: Where is Noe now? Is he locked up, awaiting transfer to the Fed. Pen. in Florida?
<< <i>Noe had the same lawyer right from the start of the investigation all the way through to the trial. I had a feeling early on that the
guy was not very sharp with the kind of legal maneuvers he was making. The prosecution built up a very good documented case
against Noe, the defense didn't even call a single witness to testify in favor of Noe. Noe should have accepted the plea deal. >>
I guarantee you that Noe's attorney is anything but stupid.
It's just pretty darn hard to defend a case where you have no defense and a seemingly endless parade of witnesses testifying to his criminal acts and behavior. The bottom line is that when a trial lawyer is in a no-win situation, the only thing left to do is throw the "Hail Mary" pass and hope that you have a jury comprised of absolute idiots who might buy what you are selling. So, yeah, Wilkinson looked stupid when he tried to convince the jury that, among other things, writing checks to other people and then forging thier signature on the back was not forgery, but "A different way of transferring money". But he's not.
And, yes Noe should have accepted the deal, but Laura hit it right on the head a couple of posts up this page. No remorse, just arrogance to the bitter end.
The appeal should be interesting.......
That probably hurt him at sentencing time. Following this case I got the impression he has a very big ego and an intimidating
personality overall. Many people seemed to be walking on egg shells and backing off on confronting him on
doing the proper audits that were not being done.
Presently Noe is in lucas county jail awaiting transfer via the US Marshals to Milan, MI federal prison for evaluation and processing to decide where he will reside during his 27 month federal prison sentence.
<< <i>No remorse, just arrogance to the bitter end. I got the impression he has a very big ego and an intimidating
personality overall. Many people seemed to be walking on egg shells and backing off on confronting him. >>
Sounds like he won't do very well in prison. The other prisoners will teach him humility.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
personality overall.
but Perry, he was a big-time coin dealer!!
<< <i>No remorse, just arrogance to the bitter end. I got the impression he has a very big ego and an intimidating
personality overall.
but Perry, he was a big-time coin dealer!!
Maybe he can start a prison coin club.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I need some help on who should play Noe
Robert Deniro, perhaps?
<< <i>The other prisoners will teach him humility. >>
That's a very chilling thought!