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What drives dipping?
Blackhawk
Posts: 3,899 ✭✭✭
Does the need for bright white coins come from collectors or those desiring a better grade when sending a coin in for grading with an eye on future resale? You would think that most 75+ year old coins (Morgans and Peace dollars) would have at least some toning, and that most of the toned coins would not be attractive - there are a lot less plainly toned uncirculated coins than you would think that there should be comparitively speaking. The uncirculated original coins that I've personally sent in have usually come back a grade or two short of what I thought that they would have achieved had they been white. Does the acceptance of TPGs spell the end of the originally toned coins? So many profess to love the original coins, but dip them anyway for financial gain. Maybe a system where toning was not considered in grading by the TPGs would allow more coins to remain in their original state.
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There are also a lot of experts out there who have warned people against buying toned coins some years ago. Their theory is that toned coins hide wear and other problems, and that one needs to be an expert to spot the problems. And as you wrote in your posts, the grading services seem to give extra points to some white coins. YetI've seen some toned pieces that I thought were overgraded or were bad buys because I found the toning to be unattrative.
Let's face it, if you find the toning to be ugly on an MS or PR-67 grade coin, I don't see much sense in buying it for the inflated money that such things bring. The trouble is those coins are often the ones that would not dip out well, so their owners wisely left them alone before they submitted them and "got lucky."
<< <i>Collectors. They simply tend to pass coins that aren't blast white. >>
I've found this to be especially true of newbies. After they get some seasoning, many collectors start to appreciate originality.
Of course for some issues, like Walking Liberty half dollars, Mercury dimes, and most anything modern, it's either white or it's monster toning. Anything in the middle from fairly attractive (at least for my taste) to ugly is a very hard sell. Most dealers avoid buying such coins, or will only pay deep discounts for them.
Since "blast-white" coins sell better, dealers (and collectors) supply the market accordingly.
That's not exactly true, at least not for Morgan and Peace dollars where it is fairly easy to always spot the dipped ones. I'm surprised anyone from PCGS would make such a blanket and erroneus statement like that.
I much prefer a coin like this in part because it is stable. More to the point I much prefer this look to a blast white piece that has obviously been dipped.
I will never buy a dipped white coin in a new holder again. The risk too great that the piece will turn, and I've been burned on that a couple times in the past. If the holder is quite old, like a green lable PCGS holder, I would consider it. If the coin has not changed in a decade, chances are it's stable.
<< <i>I'm surprised anyone from PCGS would make such a blanket and erroneus statement like that. >>
The grading services can spot dipped coins just as well as advanced collectors and competent dealers can. The trouble is they don't want to start handing out body bags for them. I'll tell you this. For coin like the old commemorative half dollars, I rarely if ever see a dipped coin that gets higher than MS-64 from PCGS. MS-65 and higher coins are virtualy all original.
Original coins with thick original toning usually don't dip out well even on the first try. They take on a dull appearance in the heavily toned areas immediately.
Anyone who grades coins professionally can probably spot the dipped-out coins with ease so they really shouldn't be appearing in slabs, should they? Needless to say, many of them are in slabs.
My thoughts were that collectors in the 60's and 70's didn't usually perceive a toned coin as unc quite as easily as a dipped one. To the newbie, a dipped out coin with uniform surfaces tends to hide the signs of circulation better (esp rubbing). I know I was fooled many times early on looking at uniformly cleaned AU seated and barber coins and not being able to detect the high point wear on them.
roadrunner
http://www.darylscience.com/Demos/Silver.html
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<< <i>I'm surprised anyone from PCGS would make such a blanket and erroneus statement like that. >>
The grading services can spot dipped coins just as well as advanced collectors and competent dealers can. The trouble is they don't want to start handing out body bags for them. I'll tell you this. For coin like the old commemorative half dollars, I rarely if ever see a dipped coin that gets higher than MS-64 from PCGS. MS-65 and higher coins are virtualy all original. >>
Maybe they can spot dipped out, but not dipped, at least not all the time. That goes for early commem.s too, trust me.
Looking for alot of crap.
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<< <i>I'm surprised anyone from PCGS would make such a blanket and erroneus statement like that. >>
The grading services can spot dipped coins just as well as advanced collectors and competent dealers can. The trouble is they don't want to start handing out body bags for them. I'll tell you this. For coin like the old commemorative half dollars, I rarely if ever see a dipped coin that gets higher than MS-64 from PCGS. MS-65 and higher coins are virtualy all original. >>
I have seen numerous MS66's and MS67's that look to have been dipped.
Recent e-bay auction
1917 quarter certified PCI AU55 Blast White High END
SUPER TYPE COIN AWESOME ORIGINAL SURFACE STRONG STRIKE
$175.00
BLAST WHITE
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
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<< <i>I'm surprised anyone from PCGS would make such a blanket and erroneus statement like that. >>
The grading services can spot dipped coins just as well as advanced collectors and competent dealers can. The trouble is they don't want to start handing out body bags for them. I'll tell you this. For coin like the old commemorative half dollars, I rarely if ever see a dipped coin that gets higher than MS-64 from PCGS. MS-65 and higher coins are virtualy all original. >>
Ayup!!!
PCGS had no problem whatsoever in sending coins back in body bags to me marked cleaned, from raw coins bought on Ebay when I first started collecting again recently (did it as a tennager for awhile). From two batches- 8 of 10 marked cleaned and bodybagged, second batch out of 12 submitted: 8 cleaned, 1 envir. damage, 3 slabbed. Major ouch. The 5 coins PCGS slabbed didn't have that cleaned shiny look the others did.
Actually I've collected in 3 stages, as a teen from bank rolls, in the early 90's with slabbed coins, and recently.
kimchee
-Mark Twain
Just look at all the GSA morgans. 99% are blast white. I dont think the mint dipped them.
1.The desire for blast white coins
2. Ugly toned coins.
3. Greed
4. Profit
5. Chemical engineers
6. Dansco Albums
7. Whitman Folders
8. Canvas bags with sulphur
9. End roll toners that don't sell.
10. ... and probably the main driving force : STUPID PEOPLE
I could have summed it all up and just typed one word:
DIPSTICKS !
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>you would think that most 75+ year old coins (Morgans and Peace dollars) would have at least some toning
Just look at all the GSA morgans. 99% are blast white. I dont think the mint dipped them. >>
Morgan Dollars are a special case. Many of these coins did not tone because they were stored in mint sealed bags for many years. For that reason the air could not get to them, and they remained white. The exceptions were some of the coins that were touching the outside of the bag. These pieces were toned by the chemicals in the cloth, and some of those pieces are the beautifully toned coins for which people pay big premiums today.
Other 19th century coins that were released into circulation, including the Proof coins that were released into numismatic circulation, mostly all toned eventually because the air could get to them. For that reason most any 19th century or earlier silver coin that is white or blast white has been dipped at some point.
Don't forget the uninformed! When I was a newbie all I wanted was white coins. As I learned more about collecting, I learned to love coins that were natural and toned. There are some coins that have just plain ugly toning or skin. I don't think it is a problem to dip those, but it should be only done by people knowing what the heck they are doing. Things like modern silver is dipped when brand new can (in theory) be preserved by stabilizing the surface with a dip, but I wonder how long it will take for things to happen to their surfaces--it may never happen, but only time will tell with that process.
I also think dipping has ruined many coins. Some coins have been dipped so many times their surface has lost its luster.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Money and Higher grades drives dipping.If the grading services didn't reward dipped coins with higher grades we would not see coins being dipped in the mens room at a coin show.
Dip it and strip it.Remove the original skin on a coin and it is gone forever.
Stewart
If a new grading service were to start, one thing it could do to differentiate itself from others would be to reward originality. ANACS could have done this when it reinvented itself, but instead went into another direction.
<< <i>Want dipping to go away? Have PCGS post a statement on their website that they will start penalizing coins that they perceive to be "AL", artificially lustrous. NGC will have to follow suit, and in one show cycle, dipping will end. Of course, there is the issue of fewer submissions, and all of the AL coins in PCGS ang NGC holders to deal with. It could destroy the businesses.
If a new grading service were to start, one thing it could do to differentiate itself from others would be to reward originality. ANACS could have done this when it reinvented itself, but instead went into another direction. >>
This will never happen. In the marketing product cycle PCGS and NGC slabs are just past the “mature” stage in their development. The market for their services is in some ways in decline.
A great many of the nice classic coins have been certified and don’t really need to have the service performed on them again. The only way to keep the market for certification going is to push “modern crap,” which the mint is supplying in profusion, and convince people to crack out their old coins for upgrades. If dipping is a way to get an upgrade, people are going to go for it.
<< <i> The typical collector wants "blast-white" coins. This was true in the early-1960's and is still true today. >>
This is no more true today than in the 60's. There are some that prefer blast white and there are some that prefer originality. Despite what you may think, originality and toning has been popular for decades.
David
<< <i>Collectors. They simply tend to pass coins that aren't blast white. >>
That describes me. I don't like tones coins they look rusted or damaged to me.
Of course I thought shiney Big Coins were the BEST !
Now I'm wondering if the dips for sale today are less harsh ?
As for what I like _Now.... I wanna see a Morgan that looks like it's spent it's life undisturbed in someones basement.. with light toning.. NOT colored like a crayon !
I believe that was the quote by Al Pacino playing the devil in Devils' Advocate? as the film ends......
K S