Is it ethical to submit, crackout, then put back in the original mint holder for sale?
Hyperion
Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭
when you dont get the grade you want ?
additional Q: if someone asked you directly if this has ever been submitted, would you tell them ?
additional Q: if someone asked you directly if this has ever been submitted, would you tell them ?
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Consider it a test drive, it is not unethical to drive a car and then decide you do not want it. The dealer does not list this car that has been test driven as used does he?
I know far fetched but No I do not believe this to be unethical.
Rob
additional Q: if someone asked you directly if this has ever been submitted, would you tell them ?
When I buy moderns on ebay I sometimes ask if the coin has been submitted to a TPG. In that instance, I expect an honest answer.
--Jerry
<< <i>but you're selling it to someone as just "from the mint" or "mint sealed", no ?
additional Q: if someone asked you directly if this has ever been submitted, would you tell them ? >>
I did chop down the cherry tree. I cannot tell a lie.
If asked I would give the truthful answer, but just like the military don't ask don't tell.
Rob
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>but you're selling it to someone as just "from the mint" or "mint sealed", no ?
additional Q: if someone asked you directly if this has ever been submitted, would you tell them ? >>
IMHO, if you reseal the coin in the mint package, you can no longer claim that the coin is "mint-sealed". The mint sealed it the first time, but you sealed it the second time. Many times people have posted on the board comments like, "Just got my coin. You can look at the edge and see that it's been opened.", or something similar. It seems to me that if you do that and try to put it on Ebay, you're just begging for a neg.
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>when you dont get the grade you want ?
additional Q: if someone asked you directly if this has ever been submitted, would you tell them ? >>
Yes and yes.
TD
And the second question YES, if asked I would tell them.
As a third question. If they bought, took delivery, then asked. I would tell them, and say tough.
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
That is an interesting question though, because after all, a holder is just that, a holder. A Mint holder doesn't guarantee anything because they are reusable. It's not like it was a sealed holder.
<< <i>but you're selling it to someone as just "from the mint" or "mint sealed", no ?
additional Q: if someone asked you directly if this has ever been submitted, would you tell them ? >>
See, there's where you get to the unethical... your original post said nothing about how you were selling, just that you were selling it... no, that is in no way unethical, as long as you don't misrepresent the coin... now, if you say it's mint fresh, then that is unethical...
42/92
<< <i>
<< <i>but you're selling it to someone as just "from the mint" or "mint sealed", no ?
additional Q: if someone asked you directly if this has ever been submitted, would you tell them ? >>
See, there's where you get to the unethical... your original post said nothing about how you were selling, just that you were selling it... no, that is in no way unethical, as long as you don't misrepresent the coin... now, if you say it's mint fresh, then that is unethical... >>
I would think that the only reason to put it back in the original holder would be to pass it off as mint fresh. Otherwise, why not just resubmit it if you don't like the grade? Putting it back in the Mint holder as if nothing had happened strikes me as dishonest, because you know that even if you don't say it's mint fresh, no one who looks at it on Ebay and ultimately buys it is going to know that it's been messed with until they get it home and examine the holder.
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>but you're selling it to someone as just "from the mint" or "mint sealed", no ?
additional Q: if someone asked you directly if this has ever been submitted, would you tell them ? >>
See, there's where you get to the unethical... your original post said nothing about how you were selling, just that you were selling it... no, that is in no way unethical, as long as you don't misrepresent the coin... now, if you say it's mint fresh, then that is unethical... >>
I would think that the only reason to put it back in the original holder would be to pass it off as mint fresh. Otherwise, why not just resubmit it if you don't like the grade? Putting it back in the Mint holder as if nothing had happened strikes me as dishonest, because you know that even if you don't say it's mint fresh, no one who looks at it on Ebay and ultimately buys it is going to know that it's been messed with until they get it home and examine the holder. >>
this was basically my point, once you pop it back into the mint holder, you have to realize that people will assume this coin is coming STRAIGHT from the holder, not a reconstituted set, especially the less experienced purchaser.
I have to admit when I was a newbie a year ago it NEVER OCCURRED to me that people would reconstitute a set, but it's not in my core interests to buy alot of stuff that's still mint-packaged. Im glad I didn't buy more than a couple (I bought a few to cut up and assimulate into my 7070). would I buy a mint packaged set on Ebay ? not on your life. would I buy one on the BST? not on your life unless I trusted the seller 100%. but it's a shame in the realm of experienced collectors like on this board you'd still have to be on-your-guard.
just venting. thanks.
<< <i>Many times people have posted on the board comments like, "Just got my coin. You can look at the edge and see that it's been opened.", or something similar. >>
When I see that I normally assume that the poster is blowing smoke. Most of the holders from the mint in the past 7 or 8 years aren't sealed and are not designed to show evidence of tampering if they are opened and closed and they don't. As the most recent reports have pointed out on the 20th anniversary they are coming open on their own. If they can see "tampering" on a non-tamper evident holder they are quite possibly seeing something which isn't there.
Mint sets - wouldn't even try it
Proof sets - doable but I wouldn't. And, I wouldn't want a set from someone that way.
Individual coins (ie... SAEs, 3pc sets, commems, etc) - doable and, I could see it happening. Unless seller put "Gee, these look like PERFECT (MS70/PR70) coins from the mint!" or some such BS, then I don't see as big a problem (ie...just put "coins are as from the USMint" which they would be).
If asked, then I would say yes. No hesitation in doing so.
Of course, I doubt I would do it in the first place so it is easy for me to say "yes"
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Yes.
Yes.
K S
So if you open a holder and take the coin out and handle it and let the kids play with it and put it back in the holder & cute little velvet lined box with the COA and sell to somebody who thinks it's as issued by the Mint is OK as long as the holder is still intact & original?
<< <i>but you're selling it to someone as just "from the mint" or "mint sealed", no ? >>
Are you talking about coins like ASEs that come in that little round capsule you can easily pop open with your fingers? I don't see an ethics problem with that. You are selling a coin from the mint, along with original mint packaging. If the coin looks clean and as issued, and does not look like it has been man-handled, I doubt any buyer would care much about the submission.
<< <i>additional Q: if someone asked you directly if this has ever been submitted, would you tell them ? >>
Of course. But that seems like a question few would ever ask.
I would tell the person exactly what I done. Bob
<< <i>
<< <i>but you're selling it to someone as just "from the mint" or "mint sealed", no ?
additional Q: if someone asked you directly if this has ever been submitted, would you tell them ? >>
IMHO, if you reseal the coin in the mint package, you can no longer claim that the coin is "mint-sealed". The mint sealed it the first time, but you sealed it the second time. Many times people have posted on the board comments like, "Just got my coin. You can look at the edge and see that it's been opened.", or something similar. It seems to me that if you do that and try to put it on Ebay, you're just begging for a neg. >>
Are you talking about mint sets or older commems? Modern commems are not sealed. They are just enclosed in a capsule that opens and closes many times over with no evidence. Only the mint sets are "mint-sealed" unless I am missing something.
Jonathan
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>but you're selling it to someone as just "from the mint" or "mint sealed", no ?
additional Q: if someone asked you directly if this has ever been submitted, would you tell them ? >>
IMHO, if you reseal the coin in the mint package, you can no longer claim that the coin is "mint-sealed". The mint sealed it the first time, but you sealed it the second time. Many times people have posted on the board comments like, "Just got my coin. You can look at the edge and see that it's been opened.", or something similar. It seems to me that if you do that and try to put it on Ebay, you're just begging for a neg. >>
Are you talking about mint sets or older commems? Modern commems are not sealed. They are just enclosed in a capsule that opens and closes many times over with no evidence. Only the mint sets are "mint-sealed" unless I am missing something.
Jonathan >>
Maybe I'm being too concrete, but when someone uses the term "crackout", to me that means it was sealed by the mint (or a TPG, in the case of that kind of holder). If something's been taken out of its holder, absolutely anything could've happened to it between then and the time it was put back. That's the main value of being "mint sealed" in the first place. Otherwise, you could break open a proof set, use the coins for a poker game, and potentially put them all back (assuming you won the poker game).
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>I see no problem with that. Many people prefer to have the coin in original mint packaging. What difference does it make if someone tried for a 70. On any given day they might have gotten the 70.... or they might get a 69..... or they might get a 68... Point is they are all super grades that are barely distiguishable by the naked eye. The next owner is just as likely to take it out of the mint packaging and get a 70... or a 69..... or a 68. >>
I can agree with that for a TPG holder. But if you advertise a coin as "mint sealed", that's what it should be. There's a difference in expectation between a TPG holder (where it's understood that the coin wasn't originally in the holder) and a mint holder (where the assumption is that it goes from the mint to the holder).
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
I haven't been on here long but in the last week I have seen post after post ripping the mint apart over the incompetent shipping methods on the SF Old Mint coins... which is worst the accidental mishandling of those coins or someone repackaging on purpose? I guess it depends on what side of the fence you are standing at the time. The other problem is once you move the line of ethical (thats the word that was used in the question) behavior where does it stop? If you were intent on reselling them in the original plastic and while doing so you did some minute damage to the coin would you then advertise in your auction what you did? Or would you look at it and say its so small they won't notice. Of course, I could be wrong as usual.
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Perfection my a55. Its guesswork, and at its basis, total fabrication.
Nothing unethical. But it would stink to buy one from some newbie who can't handle a coin and gets dust, dirt, fingerprints inside the holder.
It's much harder than you would think to move a coin.
<< <i><<<as long as the holder remains 100% intact & original, there is NO ETHICS ISSUE here!>>>
So if you open a holder and take the coin out and handle it and let the kids play with it and put it back in the holder & cute little velvet lined box with the COA and sell to somebody who thinks it's as issued by the Mint is OK as long as the holder is still intact & original? >>
uh, where exactly were these pesky little brats mentioned in this scenario???