Submitting a possibly undergraded Proof Morgan Dollar - crack it out, or use a regrade?

claychaser · October 25, 2006 1:28AM

About a year I ago I submitted a proof Morgan Dollar to PCGS. It came back as a Proof 61. I've shown it to some very knowlegeable dealers, and the consensus of grades runs from 63 to 65.

I'd like to send it in for regrade, but I've heard that PCGS will not want to admit that they are that far off if the regraders call it more than a 62. In other words, the best I could hope for ona regrade is one point higher, which would be a shame if it's really 63 or better.

Any experience from the forum members?

Sorry, no pictures!

jmj3esq · October 25, 2006 1:37AM

Try the Presidential Review once. If that dosn't work crack it out. I have had good luck at PCGS doing this. Considering what you have said, it should not come back graded any lower than it is currently graded. I agree with you I dont see PCGS possibly giving it more than a 1 point upgrade if submitted in the slab. In my opinion your ony real chance at an upgrade is by cracking it out and resubmitting.

Russ · October 25, 2006 1:39AM

If the coin presents visually in the PR63 to PR65 range and PCGS graded it only PR61, there is a problem somewhere that you're missing. Most likely it is difficult to see hairlines nestled away on the coin. Rarely is there that kind of spread on a coin like this. A point maybe, and possibly even two, but not two to four points.

Russ, NCNE

kranky · October 25, 2006 1:43AM

Even if it doesn't upgrade, I'd be thrilled to own a PR61 Morgan that had a look of 63-65. Usually they are hairlined terribly. I still need one for my type set and haven't seen a single example which was attractive.

coinguy1 · October 25, 2006 1:45AM

<< If the coin presents visually in the PR63 to PR65 range and PCGS graded it only PR61, there is a problem somewhere that you're missing. Most likely it is difficult to see hairlines nestled away on the coin. Rarely is there that kind of spread on a coin like this. A point maybe, and possibly even two, but not two to four points.

Russ, NCNE >>

I'm with Russ and am shocked to read that PCGS graded it PR61 in conjunction with <<I've shown it to some very knowlegeable dealers, and the consensus of grades runs from 63 to 65>> However, if you value those opinions and are looking for a grade of 63 or higher, I would definitely crack the coin out and submit it that way.

VamGuy · October 25, 2006 3:26AM

<< Try the Presidential Review once. >>

The presidential review is only available within 30 days of the original grading, so that's no longer an option.

Crackouts come with the risk of a bodybag. If there are hidden hairlines as Russ suggests, you might not be pleased with the results. I'd suggest bringing the coin with you to the next major coin show where the almighty HRH is scheduled to offer grading opinions. Black out the PCGS grade with some tape and let him offer an "unbiased" opinion of the grade.

jbsteven · October 25, 2006 3:37AM

crack it!

Nocerino18 · October 25, 2006 3:40AM

Do I smell crack?

BigE · October 25, 2006 3:54AM

Sell it to the dealer who thinks its a 65----------------BigE

Wolf359 · October 25, 2006 4:04AM

PCGS arrived at PR61 for a reason. It's almost certainly obverse hairlining across the cheek, usually the grade limiter on proof morgans. Get a loupe and tilt the cheek under strong light. Believe me, they are there when you catch them at the right angle. And at PR61, they should be there in spades.

If the dealers only eyeballed the coin to arrive at PR63-65 (and that's a huge spread, easy to tell apart), don't bother sending it in. Eyeballs won't help you grade a proof coin. You need the loupe and the lighting. I owned a PR64 that looked PR68, except for that patch of hairlining on the cheek. 2 cracks and re-grades got me PR64Cameo. Bottom line, the coin was properly graded.

If you're still convinced, crack it, but I really doubt it comes back better than 62, unless you
get incredibly lucky.

coinguy1 · October 25, 2006 4:17AM

<< Eyeballs won't help you grade a proof coin. You need the loupe and the lighting.>>

I disagree about the "eyeballs" and "loupe" part. It should take all of about 5 seconds without a loop to arrive at a grade guesstimate.

The original poster said <<I've shown it to some very knowlegeable dealers, and the consensus of grades runs from 63 to 65.>>. So, either the dealers aren't really as knowledgeable as they are being given credit for, or PCGS was off by more than a point. Without knowing the dealers in question, I'd give PCGS the benefit of the doubt, but if the dealers were ones I knew and whose abilities I respected, I'd give their consensus the nod, crack the coin out and resubmit it.

claychaser · October 25, 2006 4:41AM

Instead of a loupe, how 'bout some of those special Coinguy blue glasses? I hear that there's a heads up display inside of them that's only visible to coin guy - gives him the grades like a fighter pilot's windshield display - PF 61, PF 62, AU58, BB-Cleaning, MS65, etc.

My trite humor aside, very interesting responses!

bushmaster8 · October 25, 2006 4:45AM

Claychaser, have you viewed the coin with halogen light?

claychaser · October 25, 2006 4:46AM

Not recently. I also have an OTT light - which is best?

mgoodm3 · October 25, 2006 4:48AM

I'd use something harsh like a halogen, will make flaws more obvious.

Russ · October 25, 2006 4:50AM

<< I also have an OTT light - which is best? >>

OTTs are just about the worst for detecting hairlines. You need harsh light such as a high wattage incandescent or halogen.

Russ, NCNE

coinguy1 · October 25, 2006 5:00AM

If heavy hairlines are responsible for the grade and the coin really deserved a PR61, you should be able to detect many of those hairlines under almost any lighting conditions. The hairlines will likely also be heavy enough to impede the reflectivity of the surfaces. One other reason that proof coins are sometimes graded that low is a patch or patches of wiping or cleaning.

ABC123 · October 25, 2006 5:23AM

Go For It !

Wolf359 · October 25, 2006 11:29AM

<< << Eyeballs won't help you grade a proof coin. You need the loupe and the lighting.>>

I disagree about the "eyeballs" and "loupe" part. It should take all of about 5 seconds without a loop to arrive at a grade guesstimate.

The original poster said <<I've shown it to some very knowlegeable dealers, and the consensus of grades runs from 63 to 65.>>. So, either the dealers aren't really as knowledgeable as they are being given credit for, or PCGS was off by more than a point. Without knowing the dealers in question, I'd give PCGS the benefit of the doubt, but if the dealers were ones I knew and whose abilities I respected, I'd give their consensus the nod, crack the coin out and resubmit it. >>

Maybe for ex-pros

Baley · October 25, 2006 11:55AM

Sell it to the dealer who thinks its a 65----------------BigE

what he said.

Cam40 · October 25, 2006 12:02PM

hehe you could sell it to the dealer(s) who say its a 65 but,
they,d only give you 61 money for it.

claychaser · October 26, 2006 2:47PM

After reading the comments, I looked at the coin again. I do see hairlines on the face with aa 10X. With a 5x, I missed them on the first look, but then spotted them after seeing them in the 10X. Also spotted some in the obv fields with the 10Xer.

I'm leaning toward being a chicken and sending it in with 4 other coins for a regular submission regrade and photo. I'll post the results and pictures when I get them.

sonoranmonsoon · October 30, 2006 12:36AM

I have had PCGS upgrade 2 notches on my Morgans twice. I believe they both were MS-60 upgraded to MS-62. I sent them in under the $50 regular submission in their origional holders.

bestclser1 · October 30, 2006 5:13AM

I have had upgrades in original holders a number of times,and crackouts downgraded a number of times.

foodude · October 30, 2006 11:30AM

have you viewed the coin with halogen light?

majorbigtime · October 30, 2006 11:44AM

<< If the coin presents visually in the PR63 to PR65 range and PCGS graded it only PR61, there is a problem somewhere that you're missing. Most likely it is difficult to see hairlines nestled away on the coin. Rarely is there that kind of spread on a coin like this. A point maybe, and possibly even two, but not two to four points.

Russ, NCNE >>

What are you--some sort of PCGS plant??

Elcontador · October 30, 2006 12:44PM

If a large coin like a Morgan $ is graded 61 and is graded correctly, you should be able to figure out why with the naked eye in five seconds. You don't need a 10X loupe. The hairlines, and / or the fact that the coin was wiped will jump out at you.

fcloud · October 30, 2006 9:21PM

send it in for regrade, they remove the coin, and the graders have no idea of the original grade. I did it this way with four of my dimes that I thought would go higher and they all did!

Submitting a possibly undergraded Proof Morgan Dollar - crack it out, or use a regrade?

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