Grading Circulated Buffalo Nickels-4000th Post!

Leiana · October 24, 2006 7:38AM

Buffalo nickels are very tricky little coins to grade, MS especially as the Mint practice of the time was to use the dies as long as possible. But worn pieces are difficult, too, for much of the same reasons.

One commonly held notion is that in order to be VF, a coin must have a full horn. This is not true. There are some coins that are certainly MS that don't even have a full horn!

I am going to delineate most of the circulated grades and point out why the coins grade as they do.

AU-55

On this coin, you can see wear on the high points of the design, the buffalo's head, shoulder and flank and the Indian's cheek. Still a nice amount of mint lustre. The strike on this is a little soft, as you do not see the usual definition common to Type Ones.

AU-50

On this coin, you can see definite spots of wear on the Buffalo's hide and in the Indian's hair. This coin is better struck than the above coin, but it does not have as much remaining lustre.

EF-45

On this coin, you can see considerable (as opposed to in AU condition) flatness of the bison's rear flank and head. The Indian's hair above the braid shows wear, almost indistinct from the cheek area. I am not sure how original the surfaces are, but the coin shows EF detail.

VF-35

On this coin again, you can see the hair above the braid is nearly merged with the cheek bone. The tip of the bison's horn is missing and the flank and hide show wear.

VF-30

The bison's horn is a little less distinct than the above coin, and the surface has a more circulated look. The Indian's brow shows wear.

VF-25

The horn is still quite clear, as this issue is well-struck. More wear shows than on the previous coin, as the bison's body shows considerable flatness and the Indian's harline at the forehead is quite indistinct.

VF-20

The horn on this coin is very poor indeed, but this issue typically comes weakly struck. Compare the other details of the coin with the previous, the cheek area and the bison's hindquarters. One must consider all the details of a coin, not just the bison's horn.

Look at Liberty and the rim in the area, this will be a major talking point in the lower grades, as often the horn is of no use at all. See how Liberty is still quite clear and the rims are strong.

F-15

The top of the bison's head is worn quite smooth and the rim near Liberty is less distinct. The feathers are merging with the Indian's hair near the top of his head.

F-12

The feathers are very worn near the top of the Indian's head and Liberty is worn right to the rim. The bison's head is very flat.

VG-10

Notice how the rim is wearing into Liberty on the obverse and United on the reverse.

G-6

The details are very weak, but that is inherent to the strike. Look at the rims, you can see they are merging with the letters moreso than on the previous coin, but not as much as on the next coin.

G-4

The rims show considerable merging with Liberty and with United States of America.

AG-3

Partial date and heavy merging of the rims with the letters.

There you have it! As I see it, at least.

These are, of course, my grading opinions and grading is subjective. The purpose of this post was to point out that, when grading buffalo nickels, it's not all about the horn!

If there are any glaring errors, please feel free to correct me. Also feel free to supply your own positions on grading this tough series.

One thing to keep in mind, type one buffaloes are generally better struck than type two buffaloes. Also, branch mint buffaloes (especially of the twenties and late teens) often come weakly struck.

I thought I should make a big post for my 4,000th post. I just wanted to say "Thank you" to the community I have learned so much from!

-Amanda

Bruceswar · October 24, 2006 7:59AM

A nice display. I like it. If the images were a bit bigger it would be perfect!

richardshipp · October 24, 2006 8:06AM

Amanda,
Congrats on 4000+

In the months I've been here, I will vote this as THE BEST post I've seen. Helpful, informative, interesting, etc.

koynekwest · October 24, 2006 8:07AM

The "horn" thing was established at least as far back as the late '50's by Brown and Dunn and never should have been used as a grading criterion in the first place. It was a nice, simple feature that the casual collector, intent on filling a blue Whitman folder could grasp with little trouble. Trouble is, only fine money can be expected in most cases when selling these "VF" coins that don't show a full horn, regardless of what the slab or seller says. It only takes a little wear to turn the Mint state coin without a full horn into a Fine15. On the lower grades (Good and VG) the DATE should be the factor that determines the grade, with a VG coin showing a full date. This series is in need of a complete grading revision that's accepted by everyone. I don't think it will ever happen.

jdimmick · October 24, 2006 8:17AM

Nice post Amanda,

By the way, I agree with the grading of circ buffalos by third party's, It needs to be revised. With several of those dates even though the coin may technically be vf , if I am not going to pay the big price jump from F to vf, I typically want to see the complete horn. They are available, you just have to look. There are tons of 24-s, and 26-s is TPG Vf holders on the market that dont meet this criteria I like to see for a vf buffalo. Look on e-bay!

SilverEagles92 · October 24, 2006 8:18AM

One word. WOW.

Great informative post Amanda! Thanks for creating it. Congratulations on 4,000!

JJM · October 24, 2006 8:19AM

very informative and diligent post mame ! well done

couple of those babies look kinda familiar???

, if so , glad I could put a few grades in your test

Leiana · October 24, 2006 8:57AM

Thanks, guys.

JJM, yep!

Bruce, I had the pictures already sized like this, so I guess I was just being lazy.

Jdimmick, I don't usually shop for a specific grade, more like a specific look, but I can see where you are coming from.

Ron, thank you for the insight. The dates on the coins I posted (in the lower grades) are pretty weak.

Thanks to Chad and Richard for the congratulations.

-Amanda

ledzep87 · October 24, 2006 12:50PM

Awesome thread!!

WoodenJefferson · October 24, 2006 12:57PM

Congrats on the 4000th post...in the short time I have been here, I have seen you progress from newb to a rather well rounded and informative collector.

In the past two weeks I have seen you go from asking questions to giving accurate/well thnought out answers to forum members questions, nailing most of them right on the head.

Well done...you have become an asset to this ever growing hobby.

~Woody~

AZLARRY · October 24, 2006 1:19PM

Nice read Amanda, congratulations on your 4,000 post.

dizzlecc · October 24, 2006 1:31PM

I love it.

I will have to save the thread and spend more time on it.

I think you would be a good guest on the Q/A forum to host a discussion on buffalos. I bet it would be a big hit. I'm just having fun with you.

Thanks for the lesson.

gyocomgd · October 24, 2006 1:49PM

Amanda,

I challenge you to show me a Buffalo nickel in a recent PCGS/ANACS/NGC holder that has a full horn and is NOT XF. It just doesn't happen. Moreover, if you go to the Heritage site and look at their auction archive, you'll note there are many, many 1926-S coins that do NOT have a full horn that still grade XF. If you find a 26-S with a full horn that is available for low VF money, be sure to let me know--you've got a buyer.

These days, a full horn locks the XF grade, period. I think that's important for any collector of this series to know. There may be a couple of exceptions--there are exceptions to every rule--but I haven't seen it. What's more, a lot of old F coins these days will go VF. The entire ANA grading standard in circulated grades has been dumbed down--lowered--by a full grade. Technical knowledge of these coins should be accompanied by knowledge of real-world grading trends.

So, those images of the VF coins are obsolete. Every one of them is XF.

Leiana · October 24, 2006 1:54PM

I think they have too much wear on them to be XF.

-Amanda

gyocomgd · October 24, 2006 1:56PM

<< I think they have too much wear on them to be XF.

-Amanda >>

Only the last one. The others are XF.

numisma · October 24, 2006 1:56PM

...........one sharp YN. Geeesh. Watch out all of you (me) coin veterans.

WoodenJefferson · October 24, 2006 2:04PM

So, those images of the VF coins are obsolete. Every one of them is XF.

That's a pretty sizeable leap there! There is room for lower than XF thru VF and it is used! Specific coins rate different grading standards, I think Leiana did this as a informative perspective rather than a specific grading lesson.

Just an observation

yellowjacket · October 24, 2006 2:07PM

I finished my Buff collection in 1992 after twenty years of searching. All housed in a Capital Plastic holder. Ten years later I had them PCGS graded. Many of them graded a full grade higher than what I bought them for in the 1970s and 80s. What a bump! You have said it. Gradeflation has hit this series bigtime over the last ten years.

Striking issues, master die changes, branch mint quality have all come into play when judging these. You really need to know each date and MM characteristic (much like Morgan Dollars) to grade these.

Garrow

BTW, Amanda you are a rising star and a breath of fresh air. Congrats on the 4000th post. It reminds me of the old photograde cards I bought many years ago.

numisma · October 24, 2006 2:08PM

I like to grade coins by value; sometimes a choice G-4 is worth more than a technical F-12. Sometimes people will ask me, "what do you grade this coin?". My response may be something like "I grade it $125". Then I get a blank stare.

I really do like this thread though. Very cool.

Edited for typos.....

koynekwest · October 24, 2006 2:13PM

Grading standards for these , especially in VF and XF certainly seem to have changed in the last couple of years. 90% of those in "VF" and especially in NGC holders do not have even close to a full horn, and this is true even for those dates in which strike can't be blamed. The ANA has also changed their grading standards-according to their requirements even an XF grade does not require a full horn. Seems that they've knuckled under to the slabbing companies-I always thought the ANA was supposed to SET grading standards. It's all part of the "gradeflation" thing and, in the end the collectors will be the ones who pay the price.

BTW-great thread, Amanda.

Leiana · October 24, 2006 2:14PM

<< 

<< I think they have too much wear on them to be XF.

-Amanda >>

Only the last one. The others are XF. >>

Now my grading scale doesn't work.

But my coins are a higher grade than I thought, I guess.

I am not sending them to a TPG anytime soon, though, as the herd has a nice home in a Dansco album.

Thanks for your insight!

And, thanks for the kind words from everyone else, too.

-Amanda

WoodenJefferson · October 24, 2006 2:17PM

Now my grading scale doesn't work.

I disagree, your scale is fine to identify a specific condition of just about any Buffalo Nickel...not so much grade as to where it might fall into a grading slot by condition, I'd keep it, works for me!

Leiana · October 24, 2006 2:24PM

Yeah, I tried to make it specific, but I guess it's more like rough guidelines, anyways.

-Amanda

yellowjacket · October 24, 2006 2:26PM

I thought that Amanda was too conservative with her grades compared to current market standards. I agree with the "I grade it 50 bucks" line of thinking. Grading is usually used to arrive at a mutually agreeable price.

BTW, I also agree that you won't find Buffs with full horns going for VF money...unless they have some other problems.

Garrow

WoodenJefferson · October 24, 2006 2:27PM

gyocomgd · October 24, 2006 2:27PM

<< Now my grading scale doesn't work.

I disagree, your scale is fine to identify a specific condition of just about any Buffalo Nickel...not so much grade as to where it might fall into a grading slot by condition, I'd keep it, works for me! >>

Agreed. It really is an excellent step-by-step guide for condition. Everything about it is perfect except the grades.

yellowjacket · October 24, 2006 2:30PM

Just keep "putting it out there." You are encouraging discussion on the topic.

Garrow

guitarwes · October 24, 2006 11:40PM

VERY, VERY nice post Amanda! Congrats on 4000!!

Is that a 1918/7 overdate on that F-12 ???!!????!!!! It sure looks like it on my monitor unless I'm crosseyed this morning!

I'm like whoever said it in a former post, "If you don't end up big time in this hobby, I'll eat my hat!"

ricko · October 25, 2006 12:20AM

Excellent post... you are very proficient. Since grading... particularly the finer aspects between levels, is very subjective, there will always be discussion and controversy with certain assessments. Superb effort at presenting a difficult subject. Cheers, RickO

Leiana · October 25, 2006 2:09AM

<< Is that a 1918/7 overdate on that F-12 ???!!????!!!! It sure looks like it on my monitor unless I'm crosseyed this morning! >>

I'm pretty sure it's not, as the overdate is a D mint coin.

Thanks, everyone.

-Amanda

DDR · October 25, 2006 3:31AM

Outstanding post Amanda!

Gyocomgd: I in fact own a 26-S, recently graded VF-30 by PCGS, that has a full horn. So they do exist.

MikeInFL · October 25, 2006 3:36AM

Great post, Amanda.

Shamika · October 25, 2006 3:51AM

Nice job Amanda.

etexmike · October 25, 2006 4:05AM

Great post you have put together here Amanda.

A big congratulations on the 4K post count.

Keep up the good work.

-------------

etexmike

UncleJoe · October 25, 2006 4:06AM

Nice job Amanda.

Now to the issue. I would highly suggest that one should not pay VF money for a Buffalo Nickel WITHOUT a full horn.

The reason why there is a large increase in prices from F to VF is because the prices were based on a full horn VF which is relatively rare and desrving of the large jump in price. "VF" Buffalo Nickels without a full horn are relatively plentiful and are not deserving of a large increase from F prices.

Joe.

AU58WALKERS · October 25, 2006 4:07AM

Good work

gyocomgd · October 25, 2006 4:14AM

<< Outstanding post Amanda!

Gyocomgd: I in fact own a 26-S, recently graded VF-30 by PCGS, that has a full horn. So they do exist. >>

I would love to see that coin; I'm curious as to the other deficiencies that pulled it into the VF grade.

DDR · October 25, 2006 4:25AM

Unfortunately, I don't have a pic. The coin doesn't have any deficiencies that jump right out at you; it's just well worn.

Leiana · October 25, 2006 8:10AM

<< Nice job Amanda.

Now to the issue. I would highly suggest that one should not pay VF money for a Buffalo Nickel WITHOUT a full horn.

The reason why there is a large increase in prices from F to VF is because the prices were based on a full horn VF which is relatively rare and desrving of the large jump in price. "VF" Buffalo Nickels without a full horn are relatively plentiful and are not deserving of a large increase from F prices.

Joe. >>

You know, I never noticed the spread between F and VF was so much! I don't follow the market very well, I guess.

Thanks for pointing that out!

-Amanda

yellowjacket · October 25, 2006 1:17PM

The original price spread between F and VF was because of the full-horn requirement and their scarcity.

Garrow

route66 · October 26, 2006 11:11AM

Great post. It's nice to learn other peoples observations and her descriptions on the wear on the coins was very informative, even if some people didn't agree with some of her grades. I think we all learned something about Buffalo nickels. It was one of the best posts I have read. As an aside, how much time do you have to spend on the computer to amass 4000 posts so fast? Steve

lkenefic · October 26, 2006 11:43AM

WOW...this is one of the most informative threads I've read since joining the forum...very nice Amanda. Along the same lines...I think it might be helpful for expert collectors of various series to post similar threads like this in the future.

Leiana · October 26, 2006 12:11PM

<< WOW...this is one of the most informative threads I've read since joining the forum...very nice Amanda. Along the same lines...I think it might be helpful for expert collectors of various series to post similar threads like this in the future. >>

Thanks.

I think that's a GREAT idea! We can all learn something from that.

-Amanda

NumisOxide · October 26, 2006 12:42PM

Very informative thread Amanda. I can't believe I missed it the first time around.

BTW, congrats on your 4000th post.

JRocco · October 26, 2006 12:49PM

This is a great post Amanda-- you done did good on this one

You put a lot into this thread, but it did not go unnoticed.

I, for one, learned something here and for that ---I really thank you

Leiana · October 26, 2006 1:14PM

<< This is a great post Amanda-- you done did good on this one

You put a lot into this thread, but it did not go unnoticed.

I, for one, learned something here and for that ---I really thank you

>>

I am very glad that you and others were able to learn from this post.

-Amanda

Grading Circulated Buffalo Nickels-4000th Post!

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