How Does A Peace$ Tone Like This?

stman · October 11, 2006 8:57AM

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BlindedByEgo · October 11, 2006 9:00AM

Chemistry? Voodoo? I don't know, but ICG says that it's market acceptable, so who am I to think different?

MikeInFL · October 11, 2006 9:03AM

A combination of things including photo saturation manipulation, IMHO...Mike

coinguy1 · October 11, 2006 9:03AM

I don't know how, but if it was intentional, wouldn't the "toner" choose the obverse and/or a higher quality coin, instead?

stman · October 11, 2006 9:05AM

<< I don't know how, but if it was intentional, wouldn't the "toner" choose the obverse and/or a higher quality coin, instead? >>

I don't try to figure out what they choose, or not choose to do, or the stories...... I just try and figure out what I'm looking at.

poorguy · October 11, 2006 9:07AM

<< Chemistry? Voodoo? I don't know, but ICG says that it's market acceptable, so who am I to think different? >>

Who are you to think differently from PCI? Probably a very intelligent person.

CalGold · October 11, 2006 9:09AM

<< wouldn't the "toner" choose ..... a higher quality coin, instead >>

Why ruin a good coin when the $$ is all in the color and the big 2 won't slab it anyway.

CG

coinguy1 · October 11, 2006 9:10AM

<< 

<< I don't know how, but if it was intentional, wouldn't the "toner" choose the obverse and/or a higher quality coin, instead? >>

I don't try to figure out what they choose, or not choose to do, or the stories...... I just try and figure out what I'm looking at.

>>

But isn't "what" dependent upon "how" and/or "why"?

AU58WALKERS · October 11, 2006 9:12AM

the "why" is easy...$$$

stman · October 11, 2006 9:15AM

Coinguy1, I believe many folks that have question on a coin might be deceived by thinking it doesn't make sense as to the reason, the coin, what side etc. Hypothetically of course..... they gotta practice on something don't they? OY VEY

BlindedByEgo · October 11, 2006 9:15AM

<< 

<< 

<< I don't know how, but if it was intentional, wouldn't the "toner" choose the obverse and/or a higher quality coin, instead? >>

I don't try to figure out what they choose, or not choose to do, or the stories...... I just try and figure out what I'm looking at.

>>

But isn't "what" dependent upon "how" and/or "why"?

>>

Depends on what "is" is.

CalGold · October 11, 2006 9:23AM

<< But isn't "what" dependent upon "how" and/or "why"? >>

In large measure "how" is irrelevant. What matters is the "look." And since the look is not consistent with the many thousands of Peace dollars out there, the coin is questionable, regardless of "how" it came about the "look." Now perhaps if someone opened a mint or Treasury sealed bag* and found others like this, the look would become acceptable because it could be attributed to a known "acceptable" source of toning. But in the absence of that, the how can be left for the chemists to figure out.

CG

*preferably in the presence of CoinGuy or in his absence 47 priests and nuns who sign affidavits as witnesses

stman · October 11, 2006 9:27AM

<< Now perhaps if someone opened a mint or Treasury sealed bag* and found others like this, >>

Yeah, then the decision would be to submit them in bags, or send them off in tubes.

CalGold · October 11, 2006 9:28AM

<< Yeah, then the decision would be to submit them in bags, or send them off in tubes >>

Thus my footnote.

CG

sinin1 · October 11, 2006 9:32AM

why do they call it a MS54 when the slab says MS63?

you can get colors like that if rear of coin was setting on certain types of brown cardboard in humid conditions for a few months

Russ · October 11, 2006 9:41AM

It was probably stored in a crusty envelope for 80 years. But, in this case, there were two coins in the envelope so the obverse didn't tone.

Russ, NCNE

Leiana · October 11, 2006 9:42AM

I haven't seen very many wildly toned Peace dollars.

-Amanda

poorguy · October 11, 2006 9:52AM

<< I haven't seen very many wildly toned Peace dollars.

-Amanda >>

I've seen at least one. I believe Russ mentioned it.

Leiana · October 11, 2006 9:56AM

<< 

<< I haven't seen very many wildly toned Peace dollars.

-Amanda >>

I've seen at least one. I believe Russ mentioned it.

>>

Hmmm, I think I know what you are referring to.

-Amanda

Bochiman · October 11, 2006 9:58AM

<< It was probably stored in a crusty envelope for 80 years. But, in this case, there were two coins in the envelope so the obverse didn't tone.

Russ, NCNE >>

Wasn't that the coin that NGC slabbed?

poorguy · October 11, 2006 9:59AM

<< 

<< 

<< I haven't seen very many wildly toned Peace dollars.

-Amanda >>

I've seen at least one. I believe Russ mentioned it.

>>

Hmmm, I think I know what you are referring to.

-Amanda >>

Yeah, I wannabe able to just forget about that whole painful ordeal.

Myqqy · October 11, 2006 12:34PM

It would make perfect sense to me that a doctor would choose a $20 coin to work on- no risk, and a lot of upside still........

coinguy1 · October 11, 2006 12:46PM

<< It would make perfect sense to me that a doctor would choose a $20 coin to work on- no risk, and a lot of upside still........ >>

Why not tone the obverse? Why not a slightly more expensive coin that would offer far greater upside?

clw54 · October 11, 2006 12:50PM

<< 

<< Now perhaps if someone opened a mint or Treasury sealed bag* and found others like this, >>

Yeah, then the decision would be to submit them in bags, or send them off in tubes. >>

stman · October 11, 2006 12:51PM

Coinguy1, so if I see lets say a reverse toned Morgan that looks blatant AT, should I assume it's "real" because it doesn't make sense.... and why didn't they tone the obverse to make more money? And also it being a common date. How bout a common cent, nickel? Got change for a quarter?

Edit to add, I understand the point you're making as well, just throwing it back at ya. Heh heh

coinguy1 · October 11, 2006 12:59PM

<< Coinguy1, so if I see lets say a reverse toned Morgan that looks blatant AT, should I assume it's "real" because it doesn't make sense.... and why didn't they tone the obverse to make more money? And also it being a common date. How bout a common cent, nickel? Got change for a quarter?

>>

No, you should not assume anything. But, I think it's a good idea to at least ask why a particular coin would have been AT'd if it looks suspicious.

While this does not apply to the coin in question, recently, I have seen some people question the color on coins where 1) they looked totally original; 2) the color, if artificial, added no value to them whatsoever; and 3) there was no incentive to mess with them.

stman · October 11, 2006 1:00PM

So practice is no incentive? Perhaps test the waters a bit?

GoldenEyeNumismatics · October 11, 2006 1:00PM

<< Chemistry? Voodoo? I don't know, but ICG says that it's market acceptable, so who am I to think different? >>

Peace Dollars don't tone like this. Period. In the 1920's, when planchets (more so with larger denominations than smaller ones) were washed at the mint before striking, the solution used to wash them was slightly acidic to make the planchets shiny. When the coins were dried, an acidic film remained on the coins acting almost like a toning barrier.

This coin is what I like to call artifically natural toned. My theory is as follows: The person who toned this coin first dipped the coin to remove the coin's original skin, as well as that acidic film. The coin was then put in a hot environment intoxicated with Hydrogen Sulfide. Hydrogen Sulfide is the gas that causes mint bag toning as well as almost all other natural toning. The heat speeds up the toning process. The coin was toned using the gas that naturally tone silver, except the heat sped up the process so that it could be done or minutes, not years.

This is just my theory

uofa1285 · October 11, 2006 3:41PM

Well, it is very pretty in hand and looks exactly like the pics. The colors are indeed wild and I have only seen one other close to these colors in another ICG slab. It has really wonderful eye appeal and is a fun coin! I agree that the AT v. NT argument is important, especially when it comes to big bucks but...shouldn't this be a little bit about fun too?

Oh yeah, cool Pedigree too.

UofA1285/Doug Beaver - consignor of subject Peace dollar.

stman · October 11, 2006 3:50PM

<< Well, it is very pretty in hand and looks exactly like the pics. The colors are indeed wild and I have only seen one other close to these colors in another ICG slab. It has really wonderful eye appeal and is a fun coin! I agree that the AT v. NT argument is important, especially when it comes to big bucks but...shouldn't this be a little bit about fun too?

Oh yeah, cool Pedigree too.

UofA1285/Doug Beaver - consignor of subject Peace dollar. >>

Hey a "fun" coin. Ya see I never thought about it that way. Got it. This was over 300.00 worth of "fun." Thanks for clearing this up.

Fun coin

uofa1285 · October 11, 2006 3:55PM

<< 

<< Well, it is very pretty in hand and looks exactly like the pics. The colors are indeed wild and I have only seen one other close to these colors in another ICG slab. It has really wonderful eye appeal and is a fun coin! I agree that the AT v. NT argument is important, especially when it comes to big bucks but...shouldn't this be a little bit about fun too?

Oh yeah, cool Pedigree too.

UofA1285/Doug Beaver - consignor of subject Peace dollar. >>

Hey a "fun" coin. Ya see I never thought about it that way. Got it. This was over 300.00 worth of "fun." Thanks for clearing this up.

Fun coin >>

Well, with any luck, this current Peace dollar will be TWICE as "fun" as that PCI Peace dollar!

Doug

stman · October 11, 2006 3:57PM

<< 

<< 

<< Well, it is very pretty in hand and looks exactly like the pics. The colors are indeed wild and I have only seen one other close to these colors in another ICG slab. It has really wonderful eye appeal and is a fun coin! I agree that the AT v. NT argument is important, especially when it comes to big bucks but...shouldn't this be a little bit about fun too?

Oh yeah, cool Pedigree too.

UofA1285/Doug Beaver - consignor of subject Peace dollar. >>

Hey a "fun" coin. Ya see I never thought about it that way. Got it. This was over 300.00 worth of "fun." Thanks for clearing this up.

Fun coin >>

Well, with any luck, this current Peace dollar will be TWICE as "fun" as that PCI Peace dollar!

Doug >>

Always glad to help. Heh Heh

D · October 11, 2006 4:06PM

Yea, the PCI one looks like a little too much fun for my blood.

-Daniel

CalGold · October 11, 2006 5:06PM

<< Well, with any luck, this current Peace dollar will be TWICE as "fun" as that PCI Peace dollar! >>

Turning a $12 coin into a $300 coin sure must be a whole lot of fun. Of course since the guys selling these things are board members here its all just good clean fun. They’re board members after all, members of the Circle of Trust, so their wares are good as gold as far as I’m concerned. Forget all that stuff I said about that coin not looking right and all. That was before I realized the sellers were board members. Silly me, I thought it was just some ebay mercenaries. Someone should have said something sooner. What was I thinking. After all, I’m a board member too. You all know me, CalGold. Why I’ve posted here a whole bunch of times. Yes sir, good ‘ol CalGold, that’s me.

Just so there’s no hard feelings, tell you what I’m going to do. I’m going to let you boys in on a special deal I’ve got going here. Now this is a limited supply offering and its going fast so don’t delay. Order today.. Each bottle comes with a no money back guarantee.

Hadleydog · October 11, 2006 6:45PM

Hey, I'm still the high bidder on this puppy!
Thought it might make an interesting conversation piece.

kryptonitecomics · October 11, 2006 11:54PM

I wouldn't purchase that coin as natural....but I would purchase it for the colors.......it has a wow factor even if it spent time in a lab or something

bushmaster8 · October 12, 2006 12:12AM

<< Of course since the guys selling these things are board members here its all just good clean fun. They’re board members after all, members of the Circle of Trust, so their wares are good as gold as far as I’m concerned. Forget all that stuff I said about that coin not looking right and all. That was before I realized the sellers were board members. >>

I don't think it is fair to fault the seller in this case. The seller states up front that, "I don't make 'em, I

just sell 'em!". Also, the seller has made no claims as to the originality of the toning.

CalGold · October 12, 2006 1:07AM

Bushmaster,

A friend of mine is going to China. I'll have him pick up a bunch of fake Trade dollars while he's there so that I can sell them on ebay. I'm going to charge $300 each, which is OK since I didn't make them and I'm not going to guarantee authenticity. How many are you in for?

CG

coinguy1 · October 12, 2006 1:14AM

<< Bushmaster,

A friend of mine is going to China. I'll have him pick up a bunch of fake Trade dollars while he's there so that I can sell them on ebay. I'm going to charge $300 each, which is OK since I didn't make them and I'm not going to guarantee authenticity. How many are you in for?

CG >>

CG, I don't claim to know precisely where the line should be drawn in a number of situations. However, I believe that there is a huge difference between offering coins for sale that you KNOW are counterfeit (or even that you KNOW have been artificially toned) vs. offering certified coins for sale that you have questions about/suspect might be AT.

CalGold · October 12, 2006 1:26AM

Mark,

A delaer makes or brakes his reputation based on the authenticity and quality of his inventory. Its the old shingle theory. Hang out your shingle and you should be held to standards of professionalism. Remember Laura's point about how wannabes bury their clients?

Those coins are lepers. Now you can say that there are enough red flags that anyone who bites for $300 deserves to get burned, and that $300 is not big money, but $300 is a lot to most collectors (we get jaded here by guys posting five and six figure coins). I cannot read men's minds, but when I see this kind of material hawked by guys who "specialize" in toned coins my gut reaction is that they care not if the buyer gets burned.

CG

Dog97 · October 12, 2006 2:07AM

<<<In the 1920's, when planchets (more so with larger denominations than smaller ones) were washed at the mint before striking, the solution used to wash them was slightly acidic to make the planchets shiny. When the coins were dried, an acidic film remained on the coins acting almost like a toning barrier.
>>>
Yeah BUTT, weren't they rinsed in boiling water and dries by tumbling in sawdust? If perhaps one did bypass this step then it should be the same on both sides. Besides, wouldn't an acidic film tarnish the surfaces, rather than prevent it from tarnishing?

Since the subject of this thread is HOW, I'll say from a 1 sided album like a whitman folder, or being obv down on a baking sheet.

<<<Why not tone the obverse? Why not a slightly more expensive coin that would offer far greater upside? >>>
Not everybody is greedy and looking for the greatest upside. I would be happy with turning a $20 white coin into a $1,000 rev toned coin. What would that be, something like 5,000% return on investment? If I got greedy and started turning $20 white coins into $2,000 obv toned coins it wouldn't take long before yall busted me.

bushmaster8 · October 12, 2006 2:11AM

So a dealer that is well known as a seller of toned coins, and is widely known for accepting

consignments of toned coins, should be expected to screen out coins that respected (well, somewhat

respected, I'll give you that!) TPG's have slabbed, and return them to the consignor as unacceptable if

that dealer deems them to be questionable?

Seems like that would be a wee bit pompous on the part of the dealer, IMO.

Tonelover · October 12, 2006 2:18AM

<< So a dealer that is well known as a seller of toned coins, and is widely known for accepting
consignments of toned coins, should be expected to screen out coins that respected (well, somewhat
respected, I'll give you that!) TPG's have slabbed, and return them to the consignor as unacceptable if
that dealer deems them to be questionable? >>

If the major auction companies did that their sales would be quite a bit smaller in size.

tradedollarnut · October 12, 2006 2:24AM

<< So a dealer that is well known as a seller of toned coins, and is widely known for accepting

consignments of toned coins, should be expected to screen out coins that respected (well, somewhat

respected, I'll give you that!) TPG's have slabbed, and return them to the consignor as unacceptable if

that dealer deems them to be questionable?

Seems like that would be a wee bit pompous on the part of the dealer, IMO. >>

Yes, a dealer should. Any real dealer would.

13PacesEast · October 12, 2006 2:35AM

ask MOC.

and remember...

it's all about profit.

Connecticoin · October 12, 2006 2:35AM

<< 

<< Well, it is very pretty in hand and looks exactly like the pics. The colors are indeed wild and I have only seen one other close to these colors in another ICG slab. It has really wonderful eye appeal and is a fun coin! I agree that the AT v. NT argument is important, especially when it comes to big bucks but...shouldn't this be a little bit about fun too?

Oh yeah, cool Pedigree too.

UofA1285/Doug Beaver - consignor of subject Peace dollar. >>

Hey a "fun" coin. Ya see I never thought about it that way. Got it. This was over 300.00 worth of "fun." Thanks for clearing this up.

Fun coin >>

Gad, the Fugly obverse negates any "fun" you might have with the colorful reverse

:

TwoSides2aCoin · October 12, 2006 2:35AM

I would expect to seem some black soot like marking on the edge of this coin and while I disagree with Russ (which isn't often) on the origin of the toning, I tend to agree more with Dog97 that this is the result of sitting in a whitman for a very long time. Cooking a coin will give NEON colors that flow, not crusty iridescent ones that are splotchy. Oh, did I say I didn't like toners ? I don't because they are surrounded with too much controversy, but this one looks natural to me.

Joe

P.S. I would suggest sellers post two or three photos of these type coins in the ad. Different angles and lighting often is the key to determining how NATURAL or unnatural the toning is.

Hadleydog · October 12, 2006 2:51AM

AT/NT, without the coin in hand that is an immpossible question to answer. Mark makes some good points as to why would a doc waste his time on such a cheap coin with the color on the wrong side, and it sure doesn't look like most of the AT coins do. Still, it's unique and usually unique means run-Forrest-run.
It would have made a good conversation piece for sure, but since this thread has started the bidding has taken it above what I was willing to spend.

Dog97 · October 12, 2006 2:53AM

<<>>
Notice I didn't say "for a long time." One would think that over a long time, long enough to turn the left side dark green, blur & red the right side should be darker than light yellow; also a Whitman folder's coins would be in contact with paper on both sides, so a very long time should have had effect on the obv as well.

I know the question of this thread isn't " AT or NT" but "How" so I'm just saying. I don't belong to anybody's "Circle of Jerk" so my opinions aren't biased.

Russ · October 12, 2006 2:58AM

<< Hey a "fun" coin. Ya see I never thought about it that way. Got it. This was over 300.00 worth of "fun." Thanks for clearing this up.

Fun coin >>

Hey, where'd the images in that auction go? They were there a few minutes ago.

Russ, NCNE

uofa1285 · October 12, 2006 3:32AM

<< Mark,

A delaer makes or brakes his reputation based on the authenticity and quality of his inventory. Its the old shingle theory. Hang out your shingle and you should be held to standards of professionalism. Remember Laura's point about how wannabes bury their clients?

Those coins are lepers. Now you can say that there are enough red flags that anyone who bites for $300 deserves to get burned, and that $300 is not big money, but $300 is a lot to most collectors (we get jaded here by guys posting five and six figure coins). I cannot read men's minds, but when I see this kind of material hawked by guys who "specialize" in toned coins my gut reaction is that they care not if the buyer gets burned.

CG >>

You opine as if you know beyond a shadow of a doubt the coin is AT. You simply CAN'T make that conclusion unless you have first hand knowledge of the origin of the coin's toning. Any learned debater understands to be careful of making statements in the absolute unless they have the indisputable facts to back them up. Else, the reckless debater (you, in this case) has the appearance of a differnent agenda/bias - i.e. prejudice against all toning in general.

Doug

How Does A Peace$ Tone Like This?

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