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Should adjustment marks affect grade?
Leiana
Posts: 4,349 ✭
Why or why not?
I do not think they should, because they are mint-made and pre-striking.
I was having a discussion about it last night with someone who was of the opinion that a coin showing adjustment marks should not grade above a 66.
What say ye?
-Amanda
I do not think they should, because they are mint-made and pre-striking.
I was having a discussion about it last night with someone who was of the opinion that a coin showing adjustment marks should not grade above a 66.
What say ye?
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
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Same goes for plugs.
Planchet defects do impact the overall grade.
<< <i>In theory it should not effect the grade at all Amanda. That said- almost any distraction on the coin- pre or post strike will cause some type of feeling and therefor- a net grading in the mind of the collector.
Planchet defects do impact the overall grade. >>
42/92
<< <i>In theory it should not effect the grade at all Amanda. That said- almost any distraction on the coin- pre or post strike will cause some type of feeling and therefor- a net grading in the mind of the collector.
Planchet defects do impact the overall grade. >>
That makes sense.
A planchet defect would deserve a downgrade more than an adjustment mark in my opinion, as that is not an intended feature of the coin. An adjustment mark was deliberately 'added' to the planchet prior to striking and is not a real defect.
But I can see how it would distract the eye when grading.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
PS Amanda: Keep up the good posts!
==Looking for pre WW2 Commems in PCGS Rattler holders, 1851-O Three Cent Silvers in all grades
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However, I too am of the opinion that a coin showing adjustment marks should not grade above a 66. Reason being that if the strike wasn't strong enough to iron out the adjustment marks, especially in the prime focals, then the strike isn't strong enough for the 66+ grade.
<< <i>In theory it should not effect the grade at all Amanda. That said- almost any distraction on the coin- pre or post strike will cause some type of feeling and therefor- a net grading in the mind of the collector.
/q]
Kinda' reminds me of what Yogi Berra sez:
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice;
in practice, there is!
Smoeone said "HeyYogi, what time is it?"
Yogi sez "ya' mean now?"
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Adjustment marks, also called weight adjustment marks, are file marks on the surface or edges of silver and gold coins minted prior to about 1840. Adjustment marks are most frequently encountered on U.S. silver coins from 1821 and earlier. The reason these file marks were made on the coins was to ensure that the coin was of exactly the proper weight.
The weight adjustment filing was primarily done before the coins were struck. When the coin striking actually occurred, the force of the strike would usually obliterate the file marks, especially on smaller and gold coins. Smaller coins came out better, with fewer remaining adjustment marks, because not as much force was needed to ensure that the metal flowed completely against the die surfaces during stirking. Gold coins came out better because gold is a softer metal than silver, so the striking force didn't need to be as strong to obliterate the file marks. Large silver coins such as silver dollars and half dollars didn't fare as well, and adjustment marks are often seen in the fields of early U.S. dollars and halves; occasionally, these file marks appear on the devices themselves.
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Adjustment-marks...sorry forgot to insert this in last post.
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In the higher MS grades, I agree that adjustment marks should cap the highest grade acceptable to the grading services.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>They shouldn't affect the grade, but the should (and do) affect the value (to me)...Mike >>
Correct.
The ANA guide says that adjustment marks should affect the grade when they are excessive or disfiguring.
Thanks!
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
<< <i>They shouldn't affect the grade, but the should (and do) affect the value (to me)...Mike >>
This may be true for technical grading; however, the top grading services use market grading which includes eye appeal as a grading factor and adjustment marks are a negative factor.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>They shouldn't affect the grade, but the should (and do) affect the value (to me)...Mike >>
This may be true for technical grading; however, the top grading services use market grading which includes eye appeal as a grading factor and adjustment marks are a negative factor. >>
That's because the "top grading services" try to Flowing Hair Halves with Franklin Half grading standards. True connoisseurs of early type, where adjustment marks are found, could care less about the grading opinion of a TPG. To them, the adjustment marks may influence the price of a coin, but an EF is an EF, with or without adjustment marks. They are part of the minting process and an inherent characteristic of the coin. I happen to like certain coins with dramatic adjustment marks. Adds character.
But I do understand the point you are making PerryHall. What you said is sad.........but true.
K S
<< <i>Adjustment marks lower the market grade, since they affect eye-appeal. >>
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
<< <i>
<< <i>Adjustment marks lower the market grade, since they affect eye-appeal. >>
Beauty is in the grade on the holder. >>
say it did affect the grade given to the coin by ANACS.
<< <i>In some cases, I think that adjustment marks and die cracks add "personality" to the coin. For me, I would rather have a VF, XF or AU bust coin with adjustment marks and die cracks instead of a MS70 "First Strike" modern production. >>
However, when you get into the super grades (MS67 and abover), I think adjustment marks should penalize the coins. While they are mint made, they do not support the intended "look" of the coin. But then again, MS67 and above are grades that are pretty much unobtainable with early silver and gold so it's pretty much a moot point.
<< <i>But then again, MS67 and above are grades that are pretty much unobtainable with early silver and gold so it's pretty much a moot point. >>
I agree with you there, but it has generated some excellent discussion nonetheless.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
<< <i>Personally, I think adjustment marks add character to coins and should thus not affect the grade.
However, when you get into the super grades (MS67 and above), I think adjustment marks should penalize the coins. While they are mint made, they do not support the intended "look" of the coin. But then again, MS67 and above are grades that are pretty much unobtainable with early silver and gold so it's pretty much a moot point. >>
Shamika, if you don't think adjustment marks should affect the grade, as per your first sentence above, why then should they "penalize the coins" for the "super grades"?
That sounds inconsistent to me. I don't feel badly saying that, however, because I feel pretty much the same way Many types of flaws, whether mint-made or man-made, are simply less acceptable to me on "super grade" examples than on lower grade ones.
Imagine that you are considering purchasing one of two flowing hair halves:
Both are in exactly the same detail grade, exact same surface quality.
One has adjustment marks across Liberty's portrait and across the eagle, and the other does not have any adjustment marks at all.
They are priced the same. Which coin would you choose?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>For all those who answered, "No", let me ask you a question...
Imagine that you are considering purchasing one of two flowing hair halves:
Both are in exactly the same detail grade, exact same surface quality.
One has adjustment marks across Liberty's portrait and across the eagle, and the other does not have any adjustment marks at all.
They are priced the same. Which coin would you choose? >>
Honestly I'd get the one with adjustment marks. I think it adds to the history and interest of the coin in a great way.
<< <i>Shamika, if you don't think adjustment marks should affect the grade, as per your first sentence above, why then should they "penalize the coins" for the "super grades"? >>
Mark - This is no different than a coin with a few flyspecks, machine doubling, or die erosion. While these "flaws" add character to a coin, there is little room for negotiation when you speak of grades that approach "perfect uncirculated". Flawless coins should be without flaws.
I am glad that adjustment marks are considered a "negative" by most people. That means better bargains for me!
BTW, I also love to buy colonial coppers that have huge planchet voids and fissures, as well as attribution paint. It's all about character and history to me.
<< <i>
<< <i>Shamika, if you don't think adjustment marks should affect the grade, as per your first sentence above, why then should they "penalize the coins" for the "super grades"? >>
Mark - This is no different than a coin with a few flyspecks, machine doubling, or die erosion. While these "flaws" add character to a coin, there is little room for negotiation when you speak of grades that approach "perfect uncirculated". Flawless coins should be without flaws. >>
True, but MS67 and MS68 grades aren't (or shouldn't be) for "flawless" coins
I think what it comes down to for me is that there are many coins which might be fairly/accurately graded, but for various reasons, I don't like them or want them considering the assigned grades. For example, an otherwise perfect pre-1808 coin which had noticeable adjustment marks and was still fairly/accurately graded MS66 or higher would probably not be for me, whereas an MS65 or lower example would be.
Each of us has our own preferences, prejudices and requirements for what is acceptable for a given grade for a particular type of coin and are free to reject any and all candidates as we please. But, I think many of us unfairly label coins as over-graded, simply because they don't suit our personal tastes. A dog of a coin can still be accurately graded or even under-graded, and a "monster" can still be accurately graded or over-graded.
Uh-oh. I was wondering when that would come up when I typed in my generally speaking reply to this generally speaking topic.
Leiana did you mean adjustments marks on coins struck with screw presses, steam presses or electric presses, including open collar vs close collar, each press having a propensity to strike a better or lesser coin than the other thus having a tendency to be either tech or market graded?
I’m an old school tech grader, that’s why I said no to 66. But in all reality if I wanted a 94 like TDN posted I would have to be a bit forgiving of draw marks because of the availability of that issue. I know there are MS66+ grades in the 1790’s denominations but I don’t know if they have adjustment marks or not.
I could be a little more selective if I wanted an 1834 Half, more so if I wanted an 1838 Half, mint machinery is getting better and we’re getting more technically graded & picky, and if I saw a MS-66 1884 CC with draw marks like TDN’s 94 I’d melt it for bullion!
TDN, you & Legend prolly have ms66+ screw press coins-do they have adjustment marks & how severe?
Maybe because common grades are more market graded and super grades are more tech.
<< <i>Anything that detracts from the eye-appeal of a coin should be considered as a negative. >>
adjustments marks ADD to a coin's eye-appeal imo, because they are the way the coin was MEANT to look, according to the wonderful follies & frailties of the early mint. to say that they are negative to eye-appeal is just like saying the wood grain of a piece of furniture is ugly. it's an integral part of the coin.
K S
adjustments marks ADD to a coin's eye-appeal imo, because they are the way the coin was MEANT to look, according to the wonderful follies & frailties of the early mint. to say that they are negative to eye-appeal is just like saying the wood grain of a piece of furniture is ugly. >>
Wood grain doesn't make a piece of furntiture look like it's been mutilated.
<< <i> >>
adjustments marks ADD to a coin's eye-appeal imo, because they are the way the coin was MEANT to look, according to the wonderful follies & frailties of the early mint. to say that they are negative to eye-appeal is just like saying the wood grain of a piece of furniture is ugly. >>
Wood grain doesn't make a piece of furntiture look like it's been mutilated. >>
Frank, Karl didn't imply that such was the case.
Edited to add:
<< <i><<<Shamika, if you don't think adjustment marks should affect the grade, as per your first sentence above, why then should they "penalize the coins" for the "super grades"?>>>
Maybe because common grades are more market graded and super grades are more tech. >>
Dog, I think the grading companies are just as likely to use "market grading" for higher graded coins as they are for lower graded ones. JMO, though.
UNCIRCULATED coins use striking sharpness as a component of the grade, and heavy adjustment marks can cause some details to not be fully struck. Adjustment marks are strongest where the strike is weakest, as they were not fully pressed out in those areas. MS coins should factor in adjustment marks for the grade, but a coin with faint adjustment marks could conceivably be graded higher than 66, but I doubt if any exist.
My 1794 half dollar has adjustment marks, netted from PCGS to VG8 from F12. This allowed the coin to be affordable for me
Adjustment marks are interesting to me, I have never seen any half dollars beyond 1806 with adjustment marks.
<< <i>
<< <i>Anything that detracts from the eye-appeal of a coin should be considered as a negative. >>
adjustments marks ADD to a coin's eye-appeal imo, because they are the way the coin was MEANT to look, according to the wonderful follies & frailties of the early mint. to say that they are negative to eye-appeal is just like saying the wood grain of a piece of furniture is ugly. it's an integral part of the coin.
K S >>
It means the coin was struck from an inferior planchet. The wood grain comparison is bogus since coins aren't wood and shouldn't have a grain.
I consider grading a coin to be using the left brain to quantify what the right brain thinks. Eye appeal and historical significance (with regards to these marks) are where the opinions on this differ.
Dog97, I have only heard of adjustment marks on early coinage, like flowing hair and draped bust coins, if that answers your question.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
<< <i>adjustments marks ADD to a coin's eye-appeal imo, because they are the way the coin was MEANT to look, according to the wonderful follies & frailties of the early mint. >>
Karl,
Actually, I suspect the die engravers cringed when they saw their coins made from planchets with adjustment marks. In other words, I suspect not everyone at the mint wanted the coins to look that way (with adjustment marks).
However, as you mention the "wonderful follies and frailties of the early mint", I agree that adjustment marks add to the charm of these pieces of early Americana.
Yeah well I thought I'd add same variables to it, because there are a lot of "and, if ,or, buts" etc involved. Good to have a discussion on something other than AT vs NT, Heritage sucks, etc. Bad dog.
Actually early Morgans planchets were hand adjusted and many of all dates show draw marks from where the strip was pulled thru a draw bench for proper planchet thickness & weight and leaves marks similiar to adjustment marks.
<< <i><<<Dog97, I have only heard of adjustment marks on early coinage, like flowing hair and draped bust coins, if that answers your question.>>>
Yeah well I thought I'd add same variables to it, because there are a lot of "and, if ,or, buts" etc involved. Good to have a discussion on something other than AT vs NT, Heritage sucks, etc. Bad dog.
Actually early Morgans planchets were hand adjusted and many of all dates show draw marks from where the strip was pulled thru a draw bench for proper planchet thickness & weight and leaves marks similiar to adjustment marks. >>
Very interesting! I try to learn something new every day, and that's new to me! Thanks!
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA