Should adjustment marks affect grade?

Why or why not?

I do not think they should, because they are mint-made and pre-striking.

I was having a discussion about it last night with someone who was of the opinion that a coin showing adjustment marks should not grade above a 66.

What say ye?

-Amanda
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I'm a YN working on a type set!

My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!

Proud member of the CUFYNA
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Comments

  • robertprrobertpr Posts: 7,115 ✭✭✭
    Generally, no because the coin is as struck. They could limit a coin from getting an extreme grade like 68 or 69 though, IMHO.

    Same goes for plugs.
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 13,363 ✭✭✭✭
    In theory it should not effect the grade at all Amanda. That said- almost any distraction on the coin- pre or post strike will cause some type of feeling and therefor- a net grading in the mind of the collector.
    Planchet defects do impact the overall grade.
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"


  • << <i>In theory it should not effect the grade at all Amanda. That said- almost any distraction on the coin- pre or post strike will cause some type of feeling and therefor- a net grading in the mind of the collector.
    Planchet defects do impact the overall grade. >>

    image
    -George
    42/92


  • << <i>In theory it should not effect the grade at all Amanda. That said- almost any distraction on the coin- pre or post strike will cause some type of feeling and therefor- a net grading in the mind of the collector.
    Planchet defects do impact the overall grade. >>



    That makes sense.

    A planchet defect would deserve a downgrade more than an adjustment mark in my opinion, as that is not an intended feature of the coin. An adjustment mark was deliberately 'added' to the planchet prior to striking and is not a real defect.

    But I can see how it would distract the eye when grading.

    -Amanda
    image

    I'm a YN working on a type set!

    My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!

    Proud member of the CUFYNA
  • claychaserclaychaser Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭
    In some cases, I think that adjustment marks and die cracks add "personality" to the coin. For me, I would rather have a VF, XF or AU bust coin with adjustment makes and die cracks instead of a MS70 "First Strike" modern production.image

    PS Amanda: Keep up the good posts!


    ==Looking for pre WW2 Commems in PCGS Rattler holders, 1851-O Three Cent Silvers in all grades



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  • Being that adj marks are part of the minting process they are natural on mint state coins and not like post minting bag, abrasion etc marks they do not affect the common grades.

    However, I too am of the opinion that a coin showing adjustment marks should not grade above a 66. Reason being that if the strike wasn't strong enough to iron out the adjustment marks, especially in the prime focals, then the strike isn't strong enough for the 66+ grade.
    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.


  • << <i>In theory it should not effect the grade at all Amanda. That said- almost any distraction on the coin- pre or post strike will cause some type of feeling and therefor- a net grading in the mind of the collector.
    /q]


    Kinda' reminds me of what Yogi Berra sez:

    In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice;

    in practice, there is!




    Smoeone said "HeyYogi, what time is it?"

    Yogi sez "ya' mean now?"
  • Excuse my newbie ignorance, but what does an "adjustment mark" look like? I'm not familiar with this term in coin-dom. Is it something like a registration mark in printing? Thanks in advance.
    "Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore"

    My Registry Sets
  • No. I understand the issues related wrt planchet defects and adjustment marks, but the grade should not be affected. The value might though. This is the same as for strike centering in those pre-collar issues. Valuations can be all over the map based on hwo well centered the planchet was at strike with everything else, including grade, being the same.
    Select Rarities -- DMPLs and VAMs
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  • 123cents123cents Posts: 7,428 ✭✭✭
    As stated by PCGS--Adjustment marks are pre-striking file marks seen mainly on gold & silver coins prior to 1840. These removed excess metal from overweight planchets.
    image
  • Think about it from a "modern crap" standpoint where 70's are all that counts. Any thing but a perfect coin is going to get 69 or less. Another way of looking at it is that the adjustment mark is NOT intended to be on the coin but it was an ACCEPTABLE way of somewhat correcting an oversize planchet. --Jerry
  • WoodenJeffersonWoodenJefferson Posts: 6,103 ✭✭✭
    FYI for those who don't know...

    Adjustment marks, also called weight adjustment marks, are file marks on the surface or edges of silver and gold coins minted prior to about 1840. Adjustment marks are most frequently encountered on U.S. silver coins from 1821 and earlier. The reason these file marks were made on the coins was to ensure that the coin was of exactly the proper weight.

    The weight adjustment filing was primarily done before the coins were struck. When the coin striking actually occurred, the force of the strike would usually obliterate the file marks, especially on smaller and gold coins. Smaller coins came out better, with fewer remaining adjustment marks, because not as much force was needed to ensure that the metal flowed completely against the die surfaces during stirking. Gold coins came out better because gold is a softer metal than silver, so the striking force didn't need to be as strong to obliterate the file marks. Large silver coins such as silver dollars and half dollars didn't fare as well, and adjustment marks are often seen in the fields of early U.S. dollars and halves; occasionally, these file marks appear on the devices themselves.

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  • WoodenJeffersonWoodenJefferson Posts: 6,103 ✭✭✭
    image
    Adjustment-marks...sorry forgot to insert this in last post.
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  • Thanks all for the explanation!! Sorry to interupt the thread.

    A
    "Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore"

    My Registry Sets
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 17,592 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, insomuch as they affect the eye appeal of the coin.

    image
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,756 ✭✭✭
    All this talk about adjustment marks on MS state coins makes me laugh. Let's face the fact that the vast majority of Busties that have adjustment marks are well circulated, usually below XF. I would not want a MS Bustie with adjustment marks. I think the lower the grade the less the adjustment marks lower the value. Some collectors might even prefer adjustment marks on VGs, or thereabout grades; just add a little more character to the coin.

    In the higher MS grades, I agree that adjustment marks should cap the highest grade acceptable to the grading services.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 34,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Adjustment marks are like weak strikes and milk spots. Created by the mint and grade effecting factors.
  • MikeInFLMikeInFL Posts: 9,719 ✭✭✭
    They shouldn't affect the grade, but the should (and do) affect the value (to me)...Mike
    Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
  • numismanumisma Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭


    << <i>They shouldn't affect the grade, but the should (and do) affect the value (to me)...Mike >>



    Correct.
  • Interesting array of responses. I didn't realize that the marks could often be obliterated by proper striking pressure.

    The ANA guide says that adjustment marks should affect the grade when they are excessive or disfiguring.

    Thanks!

    -Amanda
    image

    I'm a YN working on a type set!

    My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!

    Proud member of the CUFYNA
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 34,375 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>They shouldn't affect the grade, but the should (and do) affect the value (to me)...Mike >>



    This may be true for technical grading; however, the top grading services use market grading which includes eye appeal as a grading factor and adjustment marks are a negative factor.
  • numismanumisma Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>They shouldn't affect the grade, but the should (and do) affect the value (to me)...Mike >>



    This may be true for technical grading; however, the top grading services use market grading which includes eye appeal as a grading factor and adjustment marks are a negative factor. >>



    That's because the "top grading services" try to Flowing Hair Halves with Franklin Half grading standards. True connoisseurs of early type, where adjustment marks are found, could care less about the grading opinion of a TPG. To them, the adjustment marks may influence the price of a coin, but an EF is an EF, with or without adjustment marks. They are part of the minting process and an inherent characteristic of the coin. I happen to like certain coins with dramatic adjustment marks. Adds character.

    But I do understand the point you are making PerryHall. What you said is sad.........but true.
  • absolutely no, not ever, because adj. marks are part of the original mint process! on the contrary, i LOVE coins w/ adjustment marks.

    K S
    "When you have two competing theories which make exactly the same prediction, the one that is simpler is more likely the correct one" - Occam's (or Ockham's) Razor (named for William of Ockham, a 14th century logician and Franciscan friar - slightly modified by dorkkarl)
  • FrankcoinsFrankcoins Posts: 4,551 ✭✭✭
    Adjustment marks lower the market grade, since they affect eye-appeal.
    Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
  • numismanumisma Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Adjustment marks lower the market grade, since they affect eye-appeal. >>



    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 17,592 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Adjustment marks lower the market grade, since they affect eye-appeal. >>



    Beauty is in the grade on the holder. >>



    image
  • OneyOney Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭
    Generally I agree they should not effect the grade of a coin. What is effected is eye appeal of the coin. IMO eye appeal is what determines market value after a grade is established. An MS66 Morgan with great eye appeal is worth more than an MS66 Morgan with ugly toning....
    Brian
  • I have an 1834 Bust half net graded to EX45. The slab says edge filed. In this case I would
    say it did affect the grade given to the coin by ANACS.
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 15,267 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes. Anything that detracts from the eye-appeal of a coin should be considered as a negative. The fact that the adjustment marks were made at the mint doesn't change my opinion on this issue.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 18,095 ✭✭


    << <i>In some cases, I think that adjustment marks and die cracks add "personality" to the coin. For me, I would rather have a VF, XF or AU bust coin with adjustment marks and die cracks instead of a MS70 "First Strike" modern production. >>

    image
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,587 ✭✭✭✭
    Personally, I think adjustment marks add character to coins and should thus not affect the grade.

    However, when you get into the super grades (MS67 and abover), I think adjustment marks should penalize the coins. While they are mint made, they do not support the intended "look" of the coin. But then again, MS67 and above are grades that are pretty much unobtainable with early silver and gold so it's pretty much a moot point.


    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!



  • << <i>But then again, MS67 and above are grades that are pretty much unobtainable with early silver and gold so it's pretty much a moot point. >>



    I agree with you there, but it has generated some excellent discussion nonetheless. image

    -Amanda
    image

    I'm a YN working on a type set!

    My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!

    Proud member of the CUFYNA
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,702


    << <i>Personally, I think adjustment marks add character to coins and should thus not affect the grade.

    However, when you get into the super grades (MS67 and above), I think adjustment marks should penalize the coins. While they are mint made, they do not support the intended "look" of the coin. But then again, MS67 and above are grades that are pretty much unobtainable with early silver and gold so it's pretty much a moot point. >>

    Shamika, if you don't think adjustment marks should affect the grade, as per your first sentence above, why then should they "penalize the coins" for the "super grades"?

    That sounds inconsistent to me. I don't feel badly saying that, however, because I feel pretty much the same wayimage Many types of flaws, whether mint-made or man-made, are simply less acceptable to me on "super grade" examples than on lower grade ones.
    Mark Feld
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 19,876 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For all those who answered, "No", let me ask you a question...

    Imagine that you are considering purchasing one of two flowing hair halves:

    Both are in exactly the same detail grade, exact same surface quality.
    One has adjustment marks across Liberty's portrait and across the eagle, and the other does not have any adjustment marks at all.

    They are priced the same. Which coin would you choose?

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 18,095 ✭✭


    << <i>For all those who answered, "No", let me ask you a question...

    Imagine that you are considering purchasing one of two flowing hair halves:

    Both are in exactly the same detail grade, exact same surface quality.
    One has adjustment marks across Liberty's portrait and across the eagle, and the other does not have any adjustment marks at all.

    They are priced the same. Which coin would you choose? >>

    Honestly I'd get the one with adjustment marks. I think it adds to the history and interest of the coin in a great way.
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,587 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Shamika, if you don't think adjustment marks should affect the grade, as per your first sentence above, why then should they "penalize the coins" for the "super grades"? >>


    Mark - This is no different than a coin with a few flyspecks, machine doubling, or die erosion. While these "flaws" add character to a coin, there is little room for negotiation when you speak of grades that approach "perfect uncirculated". Flawless coins should be without flaws.


    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!

  • numismanumisma Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭

    I am glad that adjustment marks are considered a "negative" by most people. That means better bargains for me!

    BTW, I also love to buy colonial coppers that have huge planchet voids and fissures, as well as attribution paint. It's all about character and history to me.
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,702


    << <i>

    << <i>Shamika, if you don't think adjustment marks should affect the grade, as per your first sentence above, why then should they "penalize the coins" for the "super grades"? >>


    Mark - This is no different than a coin with a few flyspecks, machine doubling, or die erosion. While these "flaws" add character to a coin, there is little room for negotiation when you speak of grades that approach "perfect uncirculated". Flawless coins should be without flaws. >>

    True, but MS67 and MS68 grades aren't (or shouldn't be) for "flawless" coinsimage

    I think what it comes down to for me is that there are many coins which might be fairly/accurately graded, but for various reasons, I don't like them or want them considering the assigned grades. For example, an otherwise perfect pre-1808 coin which had noticeable adjustment marks and was still fairly/accurately graded MS66 or higher would probably not be for me, whereas an MS65 or lower example would be.

    Each of us has our own preferences, prejudices and requirements for what is acceptable for a given grade for a particular type of coin and are free to reject any and all candidates as we please. But, I think many of us unfairly label coins as over-graded, simply because they don't suit our personal tastes. A dog of a coin can still be accurately graded or even under-graded, and a "monster" can still be accurately graded or over-graded.image
    Mark Feld
  • <<<This may be true for technical grading; however, the top grading services use market grading which includes eye appeal as a grading factor and adjustment marks are a negative factor.>>>
    Uh-oh. I was wondering when that would come up when I typed in my generally speaking reply to this generally speaking topic.

    Leiana did you mean adjustments marks on coins struck with screw presses, steam presses or electric presses, including open collar vs close collar, each press having a propensity to strike a better or lesser coin than the other thus having a tendency to be either tech or market graded?
    I’m an old school tech grader, that’s why I said no to 66. But in all reality if I wanted a 94 like TDN posted I would have to be a bit forgiving of draw marks because of the availability of that issue. I know there are MS66+ grades in the 1790’s denominations but I don’t know if they have adjustment marks or not.
    I could be a little more selective if I wanted an 1834 Half, more so if I wanted an 1838 Half, mint machinery is getting better and we’re getting more technically graded & picky, and if I saw a MS-66 1884 CC with draw marks like TDN’s 94 I’d melt it for bullion!
    TDN, you & Legend prolly have ms66+ screw press coins-do they have adjustment marks & how severe?
    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
  • <<<Shamika, if you don't think adjustment marks should affect the grade, as per your first sentence above, why then should they "penalize the coins" for the "super grades"?>>>
    Maybe because common grades are more market graded and super grades are more tech.

    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.


  • << <i>Anything that detracts from the eye-appeal of a coin should be considered as a negative. >>

    adjustments marks ADD to a coin's eye-appeal imo, because they are the way the coin was MEANT to look, according to the wonderful follies & frailties of the early mint. to say that they are negative to eye-appeal is just like saying the wood grain of a piece of furniture is ugly. it's an integral part of the coin.

    K S
    "When you have two competing theories which make exactly the same prediction, the one that is simpler is more likely the correct one" - Occam's (or Ockham's) Razor (named for William of Ockham, a 14th century logician and Franciscan friar - slightly modified by dorkkarl)
  • FrankcoinsFrankcoins Posts: 4,551 ✭✭✭
    >>

    adjustments marks ADD to a coin's eye-appeal imo, because they are the way the coin was MEANT to look, according to the wonderful follies & frailties of the early mint. to say that they are negative to eye-appeal is just like saying the wood grain of a piece of furniture is ugly. >>



    Wood grain doesn't make a piece of furntiture look like it's been mutilated.
    Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,702


    << <i> >>

    adjustments marks ADD to a coin's eye-appeal imo, because they are the way the coin was MEANT to look, according to the wonderful follies & frailties of the early mint. to say that they are negative to eye-appeal is just like saying the wood grain of a piece of furniture is ugly. >>



    Wood grain doesn't make a piece of furntiture look like it's been mutilated. >>

    Frank, Karl didn't imply that such was the case.

    Edited to add:



    << <i><<<Shamika, if you don't think adjustment marks should affect the grade, as per your first sentence above, why then should they "penalize the coins" for the "super grades"?>>>
    Maybe because common grades are more market graded and super grades are more tech. >>

    Dog, I think the grading companies are just as likely to use "market grading" for higher graded coins as they are for lower graded ones. JMO, though.
    Mark Feld
  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭
    CIRCULATED coins should be graded on relative wear and NOT on strength of the strike or adjustment marks, so adjustment marks should not affect the grades of circulated coins.

    UNCIRCULATED coins use striking sharpness as a component of the grade, and heavy adjustment marks can cause some details to not be fully struck. Adjustment marks are strongest where the strike is weakest, as they were not fully pressed out in those areas. MS coins should factor in adjustment marks for the grade, but a coin with faint adjustment marks could conceivably be graded higher than 66, but I doubt if any exist.

    My 1794 half dollar has adjustment marks, netted from PCGS to VG8 from F12. This allowed the coin to be affordable for me image

    Adjustment marks are interesting to me, I have never seen any half dollars beyond 1806 with adjustment marks.
    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 15,267 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Anything that detracts from the eye-appeal of a coin should be considered as a negative. >>

    adjustments marks ADD to a coin's eye-appeal imo, because they are the way the coin was MEANT to look, according to the wonderful follies & frailties of the early mint. to say that they are negative to eye-appeal is just like saying the wood grain of a piece of furniture is ugly. it's an integral part of the coin.

    K S >>



    It means the coin was struck from an inferior planchet. The wood grain comparison is bogus since coins aren't wood and shouldn't have a grain.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • These replies make sense when considered from the various positions. I suppose it's subjective, much like grading itself. image

    I consider grading a coin to be using the left brain to quantify what the right brain thinks. Eye appeal and historical significance (with regards to these marks) are where the opinions on this differ.

    Dog97, I have only heard of adjustment marks on early coinage, like flowing hair and draped bust coins, if that answers your question.

    -Amanda
    image

    I'm a YN working on a type set!

    My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!

    Proud member of the CUFYNA
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,587 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>adjustments marks ADD to a coin's eye-appeal imo, because they are the way the coin was MEANT to look, according to the wonderful follies & frailties of the early mint. >>


    Karl,

    Actually, I suspect the die engravers cringed when they saw their coins made from planchets with adjustment marks. In other words, I suspect not everyone at the mint wanted the coins to look that way (with adjustment marks).

    However, as you mention the "wonderful follies and frailties of the early mint", I agree that adjustment marks add to the charm of these pieces of early Americana.


    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!

  • <<<Dog97, I have only heard of adjustment marks on early coinage, like flowing hair and draped bust coins, if that answers your question.>>>
    Yeah well I thought I'd add same variables to it, because there are a lot of "and, if ,or, buts" etc involved. Good to have a discussion on something other than AT vs NT, Heritage sucks, etc. Bad dog. image
    Actually early Morgans planchets were hand adjusted and many of all dates show draw marks from where the strip was pulled thru a draw bench for proper planchet thickness & weight and leaves marks similiar to adjustment marks.
    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.


  • << <i><<<Dog97, I have only heard of adjustment marks on early coinage, like flowing hair and draped bust coins, if that answers your question.>>>
    Yeah well I thought I'd add same variables to it, because there are a lot of "and, if ,or, buts" etc involved. Good to have a discussion on something other than AT vs NT, Heritage sucks, etc. Bad dog. image
    Actually early Morgans planchets were hand adjusted and many of all dates show draw marks from where the strip was pulled thru a draw bench for proper planchet thickness & weight and leaves marks similiar to adjustment marks. >>



    Very interesting! I try to learn something new every day, and that's new to me! Thanks! image

    -Amanda
    image

    I'm a YN working on a type set!

    My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!

    Proud member of the CUFYNA
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