<< <i>There is no certainty that either metal will make up for the losses in the currency and in the event of a real finan- cial collapse, no certainty that metals would enjoy any demand. >>
Get your history books out and read about inflation in Germany, South America etc. Gold/silver was exactly what the people bought to preserve thier wealth . Often at a huge premium just to get out of the currency. How do you think all those bags of double eagles ended up in South America.
<< <i>coynclecter may be on to something. Look at the clinton years. The economy was great and then when the loser was set to leave office, it went straight south. We have spent the last 5+ years trying to recover from it. >>
It was obvious we were changing from the tax and spend Democrats to the Cut taxes, borrow and spend Republicans. The one thing they seem to have in common is thier ability to spend money we don't have.
You know something the rest of us don't? (relating to the oil thing)
Perhaps he knows that Natural Gas storage is 105% full going into Winter. And crude oil inventories are also high. And Saudi Arabia increased production, again. And there are nearly 1500 rigs actively drilling in the USA.
Plus the Gulf of Mexico oil and gas platforms are coming back online after last year's storms.
Plus Chevron et al found an oilfield with reserves the size of Alaska.
or
the alternative is that the price of energy is falling because Karl Rove said to drop it.
The US$ has devalued significantly against all other major currencies over the past 5 years between 20-45% depending on the currency.
Since 2001 we have gone from a federal budget surplus to once again record federal deficits, financed largely by foreign buyers of our debt.
The correction in gold and silver is just that, a short-term correction. The long-term factors that influence commodity prices have not changed. The cost of energy will increase long-term, the deficit will not improve with the massive military spending on top of the entitlement programs, unless we focus on fighting terrorism instead of nation building.
The nice fall increase in stocks and drop in gas prices is very temporary. Manipulated for the election, possibly with the aid of no major disruptive hurricanes and record Saudi output over the past 6 months. Remember the Bush family has been close to the House of Saud for over 25 years people. It's all good now but it is all smoke and mirrors.
In the long run the US$ will collapse and people will return to behavior they always have, getting rid of their worthless paper and shifting to worldwide recognized strores of value, hard assets. Basic Economics has been proven consistent throughout history. There are always corrections in any upward trend in any market and thats where gold and silver are at now. But with the current set of circumstances the long-term upward movement in gold and silver has barely gotten started.
<< <i>You know something the rest of us don't? (relating to the oil thing) Perhaps he knows that Natural Gas storage is 105% full going into Winter. And crude oil inventories are also high. And Saudi Arabia increased production, again. And there are nearly 1500 rigs actively drilling in the USA. Plus the Gulf of Mexico oil and gas platforms are coming back online after last year's storms. Plus Chevron et al found an oilfield with reserves the size of Alaska. or the alternative is that the price of energy is falling because Karl Rove said to drop it. >>
Good lord, most of this is simply false. Saudi Arabia oil production has fallen every month since April and now stands at about 9 million barrels per day. (down from 9.5)
Chevron didn't find an oilfield with reserves the size of Alaska. This comment is insane. Chevron estimates their oil find to be between 3 billion and 15 billion barrels. (meaning they are guessing) ANWR ALONE has 10 billion, and that's not counting Prudhoe Bay.
Finally, George Bush ordered the refilling of our Strategic Petroleum Reserve HALTED until 2007. American oil corporations currently owe the U.S. Government 1.7 million barrels that were released in response to last year's hurricanes. Is it odd that Bush would refuse to refill our strategic oil supply when prices are way down and the oil companies have record inventory to spare? Obviously........Bush has direct control over this reserve and is using it to manipulate the oil market ahead of the November election.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
<< <i>You guys should listen to Iwog. Afterall, last October he predicted that the stock market would crash by February.
Russ, NCNE >>
I consider the stock market crash to be late, yet still inevitable.
There's two kinds of people in this world Russ. Those who are willing to go on record and make predictions, and those who are too scared to say what they really think because if they are wrong the chat board might make fun of them.
Which one are you?
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
Time for everyone to start think rationally. Every asset class has its day in the sun. The last 5 years have been good for commodities. It has also been good for real estate and believe it or not stocks. The dow jones transportation index is well above its 2000 highs as is the russell 2000. I wont even begin to talk about commodity related stocks. If your investment portfolio has been static for the last 6 years then either you live in the dark or you dont give a damn about your wealth.
Everyone who thinks the US is defunct should go back and read newspapers from the decades past. The same concerns were discussed 20, 40, 60, 80, 100, 150 years ago. While it is true the US has some fairly large obligations that need to be addressed so does every other industrialized country. For those who say the dollar has lost all its value, go back and look at the charts of the dollar against other currencies. You will find the dollar is in the same trading range it has been for decades. Sometimes it is weaker sometimes stronger. In order for the dollar to disappear something has to replace it. That something certainly will not be gold.
I am neither a gold bug nor a detractor. I think metals should be part of everyones portfolio, albeit sometimes one should be overweighted or underweighted. However I do not believe you will ever be able to walk up to your car dealer with a briefcase full of ingots and buy a car. They will however readily take your greenbacks.
What election are you all talking about? No presidential election this year, is there? Where are the political ads on TV? Pidly little sherrif's and judge elections. They don't manipulate anything.
Jonathan
I have been a collector for over mumbly-five years. I learn something new every day.
<< <i>I consider the stock market crash to be late, yet still inevitable. >>
It's inevitable that the stock market will do one of three things tomorrow: go up, go down or stay about the same.
Of COURSE a crash is inevitable eventually; past history tells us sharp corrections or worse do happen as part of the cyclical nature of the markets.
I could say "the market will crash by 30% eventually," but so what? If that keeps you out of stocks while the market *doubled* before that 30% crash, you could say "I told you so" but people who listen to you STILL lost a lot of money by staying out of the market.
<< <i>Time for everyone to start think rationally. Every asset class has its day in the sun. The last 5 years have been good for commodities. It has also been good for real estate and believe it or not stocks. The dow jones transportation index is well above its 2000 highs as is the russell 2000. I wont even begin to talk about commodity related stocks. If your investment portfolio has been static for the last 6 years then either you live in the dark or you dont give a damn about your wealth.
Everyone who thinks the US is defunct should go back and read newspapers from the decades past. The same concerns were discussed 20, 40, 60, 80, 100, 150 years ago. While it is true the US has some fairly large obligations that need to be addressed so does every other industrialized country. For those who say the dollar has lost all its value, go back and look at the charts of the dollar against other currencies. You will find the dollar is in the same trading range it has been for decades. Sometimes it is weaker sometimes stronger. In order for the dollar to disappear something has to replace it. That something certainly will not be gold.
I am neither a gold bug nor a detractor. I think metals should be part of everyones portfolio, albeit sometimes one should be overweighted or underweighted. However I do not believe you will ever be able to walk up to your car dealer with a briefcase full of ingots and buy a car. They will however readily take your greenbacks. >>
Good post that bears repeating.
They won't take cash anymore. They might if you make arrangements and file the paperwork.
<< <i>Everyone who thinks the US is defunct should go back and read newspapers from the decades past. The same concerns were discussed 20, 40, 60, 80, 100, 150 years ago. While it is true the US has some fairly large obligations that need to be addressed so does every other industrialized country. For those who say the dollar has lost all its value, go back and look at the charts of the dollar against other currencies. You will find the dollar is in the same trading range it has been for decades. Sometimes it is weaker sometimes stronger. In order for the dollar to disappear something has to replace it. That something certainly will not be gold. >>
Lets be perfectly honest here. Fiat currency has always failed anywhere it has been tried. Saying that concerns over a U.S. economy 100 years ago when our money was backed by gold in Fort Knox are comparible with concerns about the U.S. economy when most of our money is IN FREAKIN CHINA is disingenuous at best.
Conditions now are very similar to Weimar Germany. Conditions now are very similar to the late stages of the Roman empire. Conditions now are very similar to post-revolutionary France. Conditions now are certainly not similar to the United States 20,40,60,80,100, & 150 years ago.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
<< <i>I have always heard " an ounce of gold buys a nice suit of clothes" . In shakespears time it was true and it is true today. >>
More or less, yes. Obviously there are peaks and valleys; a nice suit doesn't cost twice what it did 4-5 years ago.
Maybe the key is to load up on gold when an ounce of it is cheaper than a a nice suit, and sell it off when gold is more valuable than a suit. Buy low, sell high!
<< <i>What election are you all talking about? No presidential election this year, is there? Where are the political ads on TV? Pidly little sherrif's and judge elections. They don't manipulate anything.
Jonathan >>
Congress can change hands from Rep to Dem this election and that would be a disaster for Bush. He might even get impeached. His "in bed" broker firm led by his thier ex CEO, now US Treasurer is part of the manipulation in gas and oil. The Bush family friends , Saudi Royals are gonna help too. Don't expect gas prices to be this low come January.
Do you really think the got control of the government being stupid?? There is a lot of clever planning and manipulation going on as has been for 200 years.
Change in Goldman Index Played Role in Gasoline Price Drop By HEATHER TIMMONS
Published: September 30, 2006
LONDON, Sept. 29 — Politics and worries about oil supplies may have caused gasoline prices to go up at the pump earlier this year, but one big investment bank quietly helped their rapid drop in recent weeks, according to some economists, traders and analysts.
Goldman Sachs, which runs the largest commodity index, the G.S.C.I., said in early August that it was reducing the index’s weighting in gasoline futures significantly. The announcement did not make big headlines, but it has reverberated through the markets in the weeks since and some other investors who had been betting that gasoline would rise followed suit on their weightings.
"They started unwinding their positions, and those other longs also rushed to the door at the same time," said Lawrence J. Goldstein, president of the Petroleum Industry Research Foundation.
Wholesale prices for New York Harbor unleaded gasoline, the major gasoline contract traded on the New York Mercantile Exchange, dropped 18 cents a gallon on Aug. 10, to $1.9889 a gallon, a decline of more than 8 percent, and they have dropped further since then. In New York on Friday, gasoline futures for October delivery rose 4.81 cents, or 3.2 percent, to $1.5492 a gallon. Prices have fallen 9.4 percent this year.
The August announcement by Goldman Sachs caught some traders by surprise. The firm said in early June that it planned to roll its positions in the harbor contract into another futures contract, the reformulated gasoline blendstock, which is replacing the harbor contract at the end of the year because of changes to laws about gasoline additives.
Later in June, Goldman said it had rolled a third of its gasoline holdings into the reformulated contracts but would make further announcements as to whether the remainder would be rolled over. Then in August, the bank said it would not roll over any more positions into gasoline and would redistribute the weighting into other petroleum products.
Goldman Sachs declined to comment. Some traders speculated that Goldman might have been concerned about the liquidity of the reformulated contract and whether other traders would embrace it because there were so few contracts outstanding. The open interest, or number of futures contracts taken out, has increased ninefold in the reformulated contract since then.
Unleaded gasoline made up 8.72 percent of Goldman’s commodity index as of June 30, but it is just 2.3 percent now, representing a sell-off of more than $6 billion in futures contract weighting.
Like many market indexes, trading in the Goldman Sachs Commodity Index is publicly available, allowing individual investors and third-party asset managers to participate in that market. The $100 billion invested comes from brokers, fund managers and individuals, probably including some of the same people who were hurt by high gasoline prices earlier in the year.
Goldman’s announcement on Aug. 9 was not the only downward pressure on prices that week, market participants stress. And while it may have played a part in sending prices down, the market would never have continued its downward trend unless supplies had loosened up, they say.
Also during that week, climatologists revised their hurricane forecasts, easing fears that oil supplies could be disrupted. And BP said it would still produce some oil from its field in Prudhoe Bay, Alaska, where leaks were being repaired. Meanwhile, the peak gasoline season was ending, and new supplies of ethanol were coming online.
The week started with "everyone talking about $4 gasoline and ended with the market down sharply," said Phil Verleger, an independent economist in Aspen, Colo.
In following weeks, "traders all tried to push themselves through that door," Mr. Goldstein added.
"We saw gasoline fall 82 cents in the wholesale market over a four-week period, which is unprecedented," he said. Mr. Goldstein said that the decline in gasoline prices helped send prices of the whole group of energy-related products down.
Now, rather than highs, these products are hitting lows — natural gas, for example, traded on Wednesday at its lowest price in four years.
<< <i> Lets be perfectly honest here. Fiat currency has always failed anywhere it has been tried. Saying that concerns over a U.S. economy 100 years ago when our money was backed by gold in Fort Knox are comparible with concerns about the U.S. economy when most of our money is IN FREAKIN CHINA is disingenuous at best. >>
The simple fact is that every single currency ever has failed except for the current fiat currencies. You may believe this is a flippant response but this is the fact. Our currency is failing on a daily basis but people still work and live using this money. If the value continues to erode, and it will, people will continue to use it.
It's also true that "sound" money often causes financial panics and the excesses which lead to them where fiat currencies do not. Railing against money is less effective than working to replace the politicians who cause the erosion of value by creating more money and more boondoggles. It's not money that's at the root of the problem, it is people who vote for politicians who will increase government and increase spending. We are the problem and the politicians are our tool. If we don't change then we are likely to become more history than not.
<< <i>Conditions now are very similar to Weimar Germany. Conditions now are very similar to the late stages of the Roman empire. Conditions now are very similar to post-revolutionary France. Conditions now are certainly not similar to the United States 20,40,60,80,100, & 150 years ago. >>
I'm not convinced things are this bad. There is no doubt that there are many serious trends which might lead us to our demise but there are many positive things going on as well. The biggest problem I see is that we have 75 years of mess to unravel and we have a limited time to do it because of impending shortages which will impede or even stop growth. Correcting this mess will require a lot of new construction and the costs are soaring.
Actually you're not entirely correct. The one currency that has never failed is gold.
Slow devaluation of the dollar isn't a threat, and you're right.......it's been occuring for decades.
We are no longer talking about controlled devaluation of the dollar. We're talking about selling 1,000,000 tickets on a cruise ship that only holds 10,000. (Treasury notes and bonds) It's perfectly possible to do this and keep the peace, until everyone wants to get on the boat at the same time. Right now we owe trillions of dollars to China, Japan, Europe, and anyone else who was crazy enough to invest in our corrupt government and FOR NOW they are content holding that debt without making demands on us to make good. This status quo cannot be maintained, especially when we keep exporting hundreds of billions more debt every year.
The end game is this. A severe enough recession will explode the debt to a point where the combined power of all the central banks in the world cannot finance our spending anymore. It will be a simple matter of math, and the federal government will be forced to print the money outright. We all know what happens then.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
<< <i>Those who believe gold is a great investment, also believed that the sky would fall in Y2K , or have we all forgotten those times. That is why the majority of sheeple in this country never get rich (of course assuming iif one thinks getting rich is the most important thing) >>
This is false. Y2K was never a real threat and was mostly hyped by 24 hour news channels with too much time on their hands. I didn't turn bullish on gold and silver again until August 5th, 2004. In fact I marked the occasion with a post to this board.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
<< <i>Obviously........Bush has direct control over this reserve and is using it to manipulate the oil market ahead of the November election.
Then buy Oil and screw him. Put your money where your mouth is. >>
No way. Once the Prez found out members of this board were on to his scheme, he'd turn his magic price knob down even further just to spite them. >>
...And he might put the screws to the US Coin Forum in retaliation.
The party in power does do what it can to goose the economy right before an election. This might not be as effective since Volcker and Greenspan have been around and it was a more significant factor in the past.
You know guys one might consider postings like these to be unpatriotic. In fact they could be considered subversive and might be construed as preliminary acts of financial terrorism. It may be time for some of you to get a visit from the "thought police" of the Dept. of Fatherland Security. Maybe a visit about 3 am from a black van. Your exact political views can be better examined in a "secure location" with the help of some rather crude looking medical instruments.
It's unfortunate this might have to happen but it may be necessary so that we can all feel a little more secure.
However I do not believe you will ever be able to walk up to your car dealer with a briefcase full of ingots and buy a car. They will however readily take your greenbacks.
I have 2 cars for sale and you are welcome to come to my doorstep with a bag full of 1 ounce gold coins or certified bars. The greenbacks you can keep.
THIS HAS BEEN ONE OF MY BEST FINANCAL INVESTMENT MONTHS IN 4 YEARS. Shorted energy stocks BJS, XTO and EOG. I can't believe how well I did - I thought it would be a year. THANK YOU markets for always dropping hard anything that sky-rockets upward. Should have shorted Gold, but had enough shorts. AMERICA ROCKS!!!!
Don't think the DOW breaking records is any big deal. The other major indexes are still no where close to their highs. The DOW has a measly 30 stocks. Who cares.
And all you foolish nay sayers: Interest rates at record lows. Will not stay this way forever. Same with the Dollar vs. foreign currencies. Will not stay that low forever either. We all know the economy is slowing. Wait when it turns around too. You aint seen nothing yet!!!
I am betting energy to sky-rocket again, come winter months. It is soooo easy...
Don't ever think one measly U.S. leader can manipulate anything. WHATEVER goes straight up fast, goes down just as fast. Oil, building materials, housing, gold, silver. Those were the recent high-risers, and they will be replaced by something else...
Not sure what a "carraige" is but is sounds French. Do I sense a Lloyd-wager in the making?
The forum is a good place to track the PM's cycles. When the anti-gold crowd is totally silent and rarely posting concerning PM's, the market is peaking. When the anti-gold crowd is very vocal in numbers about the "end of the bull," is usually the precise time when a bottom occurs. I don't think it's any different this time.
Don't ever think one measly U.S. leader can manipulate anything.
It's not the one measly leader we're worried about. It's his team of the Central Banks, FED, US Treasury, Exchange Stabilization Fund, Plunge Protection Team, and the cartel of Goldman Sachs, JPM, and others that manipulate the markets at will. The make the rules and get all the inside information. Yup, just one measly old team. It's odd that on most occasions when the president speaks publically on TV that the dollar rises the trading session before and gold falls. Now that is odd!
2-3 Years of high gas prices that suddenly fall just before the election.
What an amazing coincidence!!! Gold is falling too , must mean that inflation is licked. Dow hits a new record, Man I can't wait to reelect my Republican, everything is so rosy!!!
When and if gold does go up past the YTD high, the fundementals for owning it will have been changed by then. The momentum driven speculation will be a smaller percentage of investment in the sector, and the fundementals for owning gold will become easily understood. The recent highs on the Dow signal the end of a bull market that started in 2002. The S&P and Nasdaq are in no position to make the same highs and without them there will be no broad market rally like so many are now expecting. Its very late in the game to be piling on new positions. Thats the job of the retail customer, and this is where fund managers rotate out and into the new sectors. They wont make money buying high priced stock, so they pick the fundemental sector thats out of favor. A lot of commodities were overpriced on speculation 6 months ago. Gold stocks have been battered since then, and a lot of Gold equity speculators are throwing in the towel because I have been watching it for myself. The true gold longs are watching this too and arent buying in any fear. Enjoy the inexpensive oil while you can, because oil has a lot less tendency to sell off and bottom during a war than it does at times of peace. 50.00 pbl oil wont happen in this environment. The demand for oil is GROWING worldwide, and any dip in price is moved higher again out of need. The Jackpot field found in the Gulf wont be mined until 2013, and OPEC again announced cuts again today. Its unfortunate oil is so expensive, but OIL is worth what has to be paid for it when demand is rising. Any short term supply gluts are quickly obsorbed.
Collecting cleaned, scratched, scraped, AT and ugly POS coins for over 2 years now!
<< <i>THIS HAS BEEN ONE OF MY BEST FINANCAL INVESTMENT MONTHS IN 4 YEARS. Shorted energy stocks BJS, XTO and EOG. I can't believe how well I did - I thought it would be a year. THANK YOU markets for always dropping hard anything that sky-rockets upward. Should have shorted Gold, but had enough shorts. AMERICA ROCKS!!!! Don't think the DOW breaking records is any big deal. The other major indexes are still no where close to their highs. The DOW has a measly 30 stocks. Who cares. And all you foolish nay sayers: Interest rates at record lows. Will not stay this way forever. Same with the Dollar vs. foreign currencies. Will not stay that low forever either. We all know the economy is slowing. Wait when it turns around too. You aint seen nothing yet!!! I am betting energy to sky-rocket again, come winter months. It is soooo easy Don't ever think one measly U.S. leader can manipulate anything. WHATEVER goes straight up fast, goes down just as fast. Oil, building materials, housing, gold, silver. Those were the recent high-risers, and they will be replaced by something else... ...no matter who the president is. >>
The other major indexes being nowhere near their highs while the DOW sets a new record is called a divergence. It's a bearish indicator because it means that money is flowing out of the broader market into select dividend paying bluechip stocks.
As for your other plays, they were probably sound but don't get too confident. The difference between making a good profit and losing your shirt may have been the timing of bombing Iran nuclear facilities, OPEC announcing an oil production cut, (which just happened) or a severe hurricane that never happened.
As for the dollar, it's already dead. People just don't know it yet. As I've said many times, even a science fiction writer could not figure out a way to meet our obligations over the next 20 years. It cannot be done.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
<< <i>So LLoyd you don't see a manipulation. 2-3 Years of high gas prices that suddenly fall just before the election. What an amazing coincidence!!! Gold is falling too , must mean that inflation is licked. Dow hits a new record, Man I can't wait to reelect my Republican, everything is so rosy!!! Dow be careful not to ruin it with any "war going bad stories", let's give the dumb voters a cover with pretty pictures. >>
I don't think Mr Bond would support your solf-on-terrorism views.
Well, I honestly did NOT think energy would go down so fast. And I DO NOT believe there is a conspiracy. This is why:
Republicans, (the have's that are tired of taking care of the wannabes, free-loaders and have-nots) will VOTE REPUBLICAN ANYWAY. The Democrats (whiners, "Where-is-my-free-lunch?", and "the rich are not doing enough for my bottom line" have nots) dislike Bush and will vote DEMOCRATIC anyway.
The economy will not dictate a thing at the polls. If it does, Americans are still very disgruntled about it, and this recent drop in energy will not have an impact on voting, IMO.
The Gov has been in debt heavily before. The ECONOMY turns around some day, and walla!! IT'S GONE!!! Worked for Reagan, FDR.
To keep this thread from nuking: Rare coins and key dates and condition census rarities are still shooting to the moon in prices. Where is the slowdown??? Gold and Silver still very high??? Where's the slowdown there??
<< <i> This is why:Republicans, (the have's that are tired of taking care of the wannabes, free-loaders and have-nots) will VOTE REPUBLICAN ANYWAY. The Democrats (whiners, "Where-is-my-free-lunch?", and "the rich are not doing enough for my bottom line" have nots) dislike Bush and will vote DEMOCRATIC anyway. >>
Well, I honestly did NOT think energy would go down so fast. And I DO NOT believe there is a conspiracy. This is why:
Republicans, (the have's that are tired of taking care of the wannabes, free-loaders and have-nots) will VOTE REPUBLICAN ANYWAY. The Democrats (whiners, "Where-is-my-free-lunch?", and "the rich are not doing enough for my bottom line" have nots) dislike Bush and will vote DEMOCRATIC anyway.
The economy will not dictate a thing at the polls. If it does, Americans are still very disgruntled about it, and this recent drop in energy will not have an impact on voting, IMO.
The Gov has been in debt heavily before. The ECONOMY turns around some day, and walla!! IT'S GONE!!! Worked for Reagan, FDR.
To keep this thread from nuking: Rare coins and key dates and condition census rarities are still shooting to the moon in prices. Where is the slowdown??? Gold and Silver still very high??? Where's the slowdown there?? >>
Oh my, where do I start
The Republicans are #1 on the freeloader list, they just aren't satisfied with a welfare check. They'd rather have a few million in unneeded defense contracts or farm subsidies. Both parties soak the gov't funds. The Democrats raise taxes to pay for it while the Republicans do it on borrowed money cutting taxes to the freeloading rich. Congress uses borrowed money to buy what the Romans called "bread and circus" to stay in office.
Gov't debt has never been close to this level before. Then add the State and local debt, social security and Medicare obligations and all the personal debt and it is staggering. I don't understand the Reagan comment. He took office complaining about the 1 trillion national debt, when he left it was 4 trillion and has NEVER gone been paid off one nickel.
The reason for the rise in Gold/silver is simple. The world is saving and they are worried about saving dollars. They are moving into something more safe. Meanwhile the nation that 50 years ago had the largest stockpile of gold and silver will soon have none.
I feel that gold and oil prices are totally out of the control of anyone in govt. China, Russia have much more impact on Gold and Oil prices than anyone else. It's bid market and the highest bidder gets the oil/gold. If China doesn't need oil this quarter, oil goes down. If France's central bank dumps gold, it'll go down too. I expect higher gold and oil by Christmas. (France is done dumping, btw)
gold and oil are sold in a world market with many players from europe, africa, asia, and north america. no one controls the price of oil. even if someone wanted to artificially reduce the price of oil, others would pay more for it elsewhere. come on now. even the liberal newpapers are saying oil is not manipulated by bush. get a clue!
<< <i> feel that gold and oil prices are totally out of the control of anyone in govt. China, Russia have much more impact on Gold and Oil prices than anyone else. It's bid market and the highest bidder gets the oil/gold. If China doesn't need oil this quarter, oil goes down. If France's central bank dumps gold, it'll go down too. I expect higher gold and oil by Christmas. (France is done dumping, btw) >>
As far as manipulating the price of gasoline let's not forget the little trick employed by Goldman Sachs to "adjust" their commodity index basket of goods back on July 12th. By cutting the weighting of unleaded gas futures from 8.4% to around 2.3%, they helped to persuade a number of hedge and pensions to sell off their futures to rebalance their portfolios as well. According to Rob Kirby, this had a decisive effect on reducing the price of gas from August to now. And just in time for the election period. Thanks Treasury head Paulson (ex GS head) and Goldman Sachs for helping everyone out. There's no stone left unturned when it comes to an election! I think even the BLS would be impressed with Goldman's manipulation!
Geez you'd wonder why this rebalancing occured in July of this year rather than last year or say in late November of this year? Do ya think that major funds selling 75% of their gas futures would have an effect on the markets and the price of gas? Uh maybe?
The Bush family has a nice little arrangement with the Saudi's. I'm sure a phone call here or there can help with adjusting oil prices up or down or changing availability when needed. You scratch mine, I'll scratch yours. While it may be difficult to adjust the prices around the world, Bush would only be interested in US oil prices paid. This certainly can be manipulated in the short term. A month is plenty short term enough.
Comments
<< <i>There is no certainty that either
metal will make up for the losses in the currency and in the event of a real finan-
cial collapse, no certainty that metals would enjoy any demand.
>>
Get your history books out and read about inflation in Germany, South America etc. Gold/silver was exactly what the people bought to preserve thier wealth . Often at a huge premium just to get out of the currency. How do you think all those bags of double eagles ended up in South America.
<< <i>coynclecter may be on to something. Look at the clinton years. The economy was great and then when the loser was set to leave office, it went straight south. We have spent the last 5+ years trying to recover from it.
>>
It was obvious we were changing from the tax and spend Democrats to the Cut taxes, borrow and spend Republicans. The one thing they seem to have in common is thier ability to spend money we don't have.
Empire of Debt
iowg has very good points.
Perhaps he knows that Natural Gas storage is 105% full going into Winter. And crude oil inventories are also high. And Saudi Arabia increased production, again. And there are nearly 1500 rigs actively drilling in the USA.
Plus the Gulf of Mexico oil and gas platforms are coming back online after last year's storms.
Plus Chevron et al found an oilfield with reserves the size of Alaska.
or
the alternative is that the price of energy is falling because Karl Rove said to drop it.
Since 2001 we have gone from a federal budget surplus to once again record federal deficits, financed largely by foreign buyers of our debt.
The correction in gold and silver is just that, a short-term correction. The long-term factors that influence commodity prices have not changed. The cost of energy will increase long-term, the deficit will not improve with the massive military spending on top of the entitlement programs, unless we focus on fighting terrorism instead of nation building.
The nice fall increase in stocks and drop in gas prices is very temporary. Manipulated for the election, possibly with the aid of no major disruptive hurricanes and record Saudi output over the past 6 months. Remember the Bush family has been close to the House of Saud for over 25 years people. It's all good now but it is all smoke and mirrors.
In the long run the US$ will collapse and people will return to behavior they always have, getting rid of their worthless paper and shifting to worldwide recognized strores of value, hard assets. Basic Economics has been proven consistent throughout history. There are always corrections in any upward trend in any market and thats where gold and silver are at now. But with the current set of circumstances the long-term upward movement in gold and silver has barely gotten started.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
<< <i>You know something the rest of us don't? (relating to the oil thing)
Perhaps he knows that Natural Gas storage is 105% full going into Winter. And crude oil inventories are also high. And Saudi Arabia increased production, again. And there are nearly 1500 rigs actively drilling in the USA.
Plus the Gulf of Mexico oil and gas platforms are coming back online after last year's storms.
Plus Chevron et al found an oilfield with reserves the size of Alaska.
or
the alternative is that the price of energy is falling because Karl Rove said to drop it. >>
Good lord, most of this is simply false. Saudi Arabia oil production has fallen every month since April and now stands at about 9 million barrels per day. (down from 9.5)
Chevron didn't find an oilfield with reserves the size of Alaska. This comment is insane. Chevron estimates their oil find to be between 3 billion and 15 billion barrels. (meaning they are guessing) ANWR ALONE has 10 billion, and that's not counting Prudhoe Bay.
Finally, George Bush ordered the refilling of our Strategic Petroleum Reserve HALTED until 2007. American oil corporations currently owe the U.S. Government 1.7 million barrels that were released in response to last year's hurricanes. Is it odd that Bush would refuse to refill our strategic oil supply when prices are way down and the oil companies have record inventory to spare? Obviously........Bush has direct control over this reserve and is using it to manipulate the oil market ahead of the November election.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>You guys should listen to Iwog. Afterall, last October he predicted that the stock market would crash by February.
Russ, NCNE >>
Ooooooo, now that was a low blow :-)
<< <i>You guys should listen to Iwog. Afterall, last October he predicted that the stock market would crash by February.
Russ, NCNE >>
I consider the stock market crash to be late, yet still inevitable.
There's two kinds of people in this world Russ. Those who are willing to go on record and make predictions, and those who are too scared to say what they really think because if they are wrong the chat board might make fun of them.
Which one are you?
Everyone who thinks the US is defunct should go back and read newspapers from the decades past. The same concerns were discussed 20, 40, 60, 80, 100, 150 years ago. While it is true the US has some fairly large obligations that need to be addressed so does every other industrialized country. For those who say the dollar has lost all its value, go back and look at the charts of the dollar against other currencies. You will find the dollar is in the same trading range it has been for decades. Sometimes it is weaker sometimes stronger. In order for the dollar to disappear something has to replace it. That something certainly will not be gold.
I am neither a gold bug nor a detractor. I think metals should be part of everyones portfolio, albeit sometimes one should be overweighted or underweighted. However I do not believe you will ever be able to walk up to your car dealer with a briefcase full of ingots and buy a car. They will however readily take your greenbacks.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>I consider the stock market crash to be late, yet still inevitable. >>
Gee, didn't see that response coming from a mile away.
Russ, NCNE
Jonathan
<< <i>I consider the stock market crash to be late, yet still inevitable. >>
It's inevitable that the stock market will do one of three things tomorrow: go up, go down or stay about the same.
Of COURSE a crash is inevitable eventually; past history tells us sharp corrections or worse do happen as part of the cyclical nature of the markets.
I could say "the market will crash by 30% eventually," but so what? If that keeps you out of stocks while the market *doubled* before that 30% crash, you could say "I told you so" but people who listen to you STILL lost a lot of money by staying out of the market.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Ziggy understands the Iwog approach. Make a prediction and when it does not come true, hedge it after the fact.
Russ, NCNE >>
Which of my predictions have been spot on Russ? Lets see how honest you're willing to be.
<< <i>Time for everyone to start think rationally. Every asset class has its day in the sun. The last 5 years have been good for commodities. It has also been good for real estate and believe it or not stocks. The dow jones transportation index is well above its 2000 highs as is the russell 2000. I wont even begin to talk about commodity related stocks. If your investment portfolio has been static for the last 6 years then either you live in the dark or you dont give a damn about your wealth.
Everyone who thinks the US is defunct should go back and read newspapers from the decades past. The same concerns were discussed 20, 40, 60, 80, 100, 150 years ago. While it is true the US has some fairly large obligations that need to be addressed so does every other industrialized country. For those who say the dollar has lost all its value, go back and look at the charts of the dollar against other currencies. You will find the dollar is in the same trading range it has been for decades. Sometimes it is weaker sometimes stronger. In order for the dollar to disappear something has to replace it. That something certainly will not be gold.
I am neither a gold bug nor a detractor. I think metals should be part of everyones portfolio, albeit sometimes one should be overweighted or underweighted. However I do not believe you will ever be able to walk up to your car dealer with a briefcase full of ingots and buy a car. They will however readily take your greenbacks. >>
Good post that bears repeating.
They won't take cash anymore. They might if you make arrangements and file the paperwork.
<< <i>I have always heard " an ounce of gold buys a nice suit of clothes" . In shakespears time it was true and it is true today. >>
This will likely remain true.
The dollar on the other hand isn't going to be useful for much.
<< <i>Everyone who thinks the US is defunct should go back and read newspapers from the decades past. The same concerns were discussed 20, 40, 60, 80, 100, 150 years ago. While it is true the US has some fairly large obligations that need to be addressed so does every other industrialized country. For those who say the dollar has lost all its value, go back and look at the charts of the dollar against other currencies. You will find the dollar is in the same trading range it has been for decades. Sometimes it is weaker sometimes stronger. In order for the dollar to disappear something has to replace it. That something certainly will not be gold. >>
Lets be perfectly honest here. Fiat currency has always failed anywhere it has been tried. Saying that concerns over a U.S. economy 100 years ago when our money was backed by gold in Fort Knox are comparible with concerns about the U.S. economy when most of our money is IN FREAKIN CHINA is disingenuous at best.
Conditions now are very similar to Weimar Germany. Conditions now are very similar to the late stages of the Roman empire. Conditions now are very similar to post-revolutionary France. Conditions now are certainly not similar to the United States 20,40,60,80,100, & 150 years ago.
<< <i>I have always heard " an ounce of gold buys a nice suit of clothes" . In shakespears time it was true and it is true today. >>
More or less, yes. Obviously there are peaks and valleys; a nice suit doesn't cost twice what it did 4-5 years ago.
Maybe the key is to load up on gold when an ounce of it is cheaper than a a nice suit, and sell it off when gold is more valuable than a suit. Buy low, sell high!
<< <i>You guys should listen to Iwog. Afterall, last October he predicted that the stock market would crash by February.
Russ, NCNE >>
Actually, it did crash exactly as predicted. It just didn't do so in our version of reality.
Obscurum per obscurius
<< <i>What election are you all talking about? No presidential election this year, is there? Where are the political ads on TV? Pidly little sherrif's and judge elections. They don't manipulate anything.
Jonathan
>>
Congress can change hands from Rep to Dem this election and that would be a disaster for Bush. He might even get impeached. His "in bed" broker firm led by his thier ex CEO, now US Treasurer is part of the manipulation in gas and oil. The Bush family friends , Saudi Royals are gonna help too. Don't expect gas prices to be this low come January.
Do you really think the got control of the government being stupid?? There is a lot of clever planning and manipulation going on as has been for 200 years.
Change in Goldman Index Played Role in Gasoline Price Drop
By HEATHER TIMMONS
Published: September 30, 2006
LONDON, Sept. 29 — Politics and worries about oil supplies may have caused gasoline prices to go up at the pump earlier this year, but one big investment bank quietly helped their rapid drop in recent weeks, according to some economists, traders and analysts.
Goldman Sachs, which runs the largest commodity index, the G.S.C.I., said in early August that it was reducing the index’s weighting in gasoline futures significantly. The announcement did not make big headlines, but it has reverberated through the markets in the weeks since and some other investors who had been betting that gasoline would rise followed suit on their weightings.
"They started unwinding their positions, and those other longs also rushed to the door at the same time," said Lawrence J. Goldstein, president of the Petroleum Industry Research Foundation.
Wholesale prices for New York Harbor unleaded gasoline, the major gasoline contract traded on the New York Mercantile Exchange, dropped 18 cents a gallon on Aug. 10, to $1.9889 a gallon, a decline of more than 8 percent, and they have dropped further since then. In New York on Friday, gasoline futures for October delivery rose 4.81 cents, or 3.2 percent, to $1.5492 a gallon. Prices have fallen 9.4 percent this year.
The August announcement by Goldman Sachs caught some traders by surprise. The firm said in early June that it planned to roll its positions in the harbor contract into another futures contract, the reformulated gasoline blendstock, which is replacing the harbor contract at the end of the year because of changes to laws about gasoline additives.
Later in June, Goldman said it had rolled a third of its gasoline holdings into the reformulated contracts but would make further announcements as to whether the remainder would be rolled over. Then in August, the bank said it would not roll over any more positions into gasoline and would redistribute the weighting into other petroleum products.
Goldman Sachs declined to comment. Some traders speculated that Goldman might have been concerned about the liquidity of the reformulated contract and whether other traders would embrace it because there were so few contracts outstanding. The open interest, or number of futures contracts taken out, has increased ninefold in the reformulated contract since then.
Unleaded gasoline made up 8.72 percent of Goldman’s commodity index as of June 30, but it is just 2.3 percent now, representing a sell-off of more than $6 billion in futures contract weighting.
Like many market indexes, trading in the Goldman Sachs Commodity Index is publicly available, allowing individual investors and third-party asset managers to participate in that market. The $100 billion invested comes from brokers, fund managers and individuals, probably including some of the same people who were hurt by high gasoline prices earlier in the year.
Goldman’s announcement on Aug. 9 was not the only downward pressure on prices that week, market participants stress. And while it may have played a part in sending prices down, the market would never have continued its downward trend unless supplies had loosened up, they say.
Also during that week, climatologists revised their hurricane forecasts, easing fears that oil supplies could be disrupted. And BP said it would still produce some oil from its field in Prudhoe Bay, Alaska, where leaks were being repaired. Meanwhile, the peak gasoline season was ending, and new supplies of ethanol were coming online.
The week started with "everyone talking about $4 gasoline and ended with the market down sharply," said Phil Verleger, an independent economist in Aspen, Colo.
In following weeks, "traders all tried to push themselves through that door," Mr. Goldstein added.
"We saw gasoline fall 82 cents in the wholesale market over a four-week period, which is unprecedented," he said. Mr. Goldstein said that the decline in gasoline prices helped send prices of the whole group of energy-related products down.
Now, rather than highs, these products are hitting lows — natural gas, for example, traded on Wednesday at its lowest price in four years.
<< <i>
Lets be perfectly honest here. Fiat currency has always failed anywhere it has been tried. Saying that concerns over a U.S. economy 100 years ago when our money was backed by gold in Fort Knox are comparible with concerns about the U.S. economy when most of our money is IN FREAKIN CHINA is disingenuous at best. >>
The simple fact is that every single currency ever has failed except for the current
fiat currencies. You may believe this is a flippant response but this is the fact. Our
currency is failing on a daily basis but people still work and live using this money. If
the value continues to erode, and it will, people will continue to use it.
It's also true that "sound" money often causes financial panics and the excesses
which lead to them where fiat currencies do not. Railing against money is less effective
than working to replace the politicians who cause the erosion of value by creating more
money and more boondoggles. It's not money that's at the root of the problem, it is
people who vote for politicians who will increase government and increase spending.
We are the problem and the politicians are our tool. If we don't change then we are
likely to become more history than not.
<< <i>Conditions now are very similar to Weimar Germany. Conditions now are very similar to the late stages of the Roman empire. Conditions now are very similar to post-revolutionary France. Conditions now are certainly not similar to the United States 20,40,60,80,100, & 150 years ago. >>
I'm not convinced things are this bad. There is no doubt that there are many serious
trends which might lead us to our demise but there are many positive things going on
as well. The biggest problem I see is that we have 75 years of mess to unravel and
we have a limited time to do it because of impending shortages which will impede or
even stop growth. Correcting this mess will require a lot of new construction and the
costs are soaring.
Slow devaluation of the dollar isn't a threat, and you're right.......it's been occuring for decades.
We are no longer talking about controlled devaluation of the dollar. We're talking about selling 1,000,000 tickets on a cruise ship that only holds 10,000. (Treasury notes and bonds) It's perfectly possible to do this and keep the peace, until everyone wants to get on the boat at the same time. Right now we owe trillions of dollars to China, Japan, Europe, and anyone else who was crazy enough to invest in our corrupt government and FOR NOW they are content holding that debt without making demands on us to make good. This status quo cannot be maintained, especially when we keep exporting hundreds of billions more debt every year.
The end game is this. A severe enough recession will explode the debt to a point where the combined power of all the central banks in the world cannot finance our spending anymore. It will be a simple matter of math, and the federal government will be forced to print the money outright. We all know what happens then.
<< <i>Buying opportunity! >>
I agree. I picked up 20 more ounces of gold today from AMPEX.
<< <i>Those who believe gold is a great investment, also believed that the sky would fall in Y2K , or have we all forgotten those times. That is why the majority of sheeple in this country never get rich (of course assuming iif one thinks getting rich is the most important thing)
This is false. Y2K was never a real threat and was mostly hyped by 24 hour news channels with too much time on their hands. I didn't turn bullish on gold and silver again until August 5th, 2004. In fact I marked the occasion with a post to this board.
Then buy Oil and screw him. Put your money where your mouth is.
<< <i>Obviously........Bush has direct control over this reserve and is using it to manipulate the oil market ahead of the November election.
Then buy Oil and screw him. Put your money where your mouth is. >>
No way. Once the Prez found out members of this board were on to his scheme, he'd turn his magic price knob down even further just to spite them.
Obscurum per obscurius
<< <i>
<< <i>Obviously........Bush has direct control over this reserve and is using it to manipulate the oil market ahead of the November election.
Then buy Oil and screw him. Put your money where your mouth is. >>
No way. Once the Prez found out members of this board were on to his scheme, he'd turn his magic price knob down even further just to spite them. >>
...And he might put the screws to the US Coin Forum in retaliation.
The party in power does do what it can to goose the economy right before an election. This might not
be as effective since Volcker and Greenspan have been around and it was a more significant factor in
the past.
It's unfortunate this might have to happen but it may be necessary so that we can all feel a little more secure.
I have 2 cars for sale and you are welcome to come to my doorstep with a bag full of 1 ounce gold coins or certified bars. The greenbacks you can keep.
roadrunner
Don't think the DOW breaking records is any big deal. The other major indexes are still no where close to their highs. The DOW has a measly 30 stocks. Who cares.
And all you foolish nay sayers: Interest rates at record lows. Will not stay this way forever. Same with the Dollar vs. foreign currencies. Will not stay that low forever either. We all know the economy is slowing. Wait when it turns around too. You aint seen nothing yet!!!
I am betting energy to sky-rocket again, come winter months. It is soooo easy...
Don't ever think one measly U.S. leader can manipulate anything. WHATEVER goes straight up fast, goes down just as fast. Oil, building materials, housing, gold, silver. Those were the recent high-risers, and they will be replaced by something else...
...no matter who the president is.
The forum is a good place to track the PM's cycles. When the anti-gold crowd is totally silent and rarely posting concerning PM's, the market is peaking. When the anti-gold crowd is very vocal in numbers about the "end of the bull," is usually the precise time when a bottom occurs. I don't think it's any different this time.
Don't ever think one measly U.S. leader can manipulate anything.
It's not the one measly leader we're worried about. It's his team of the Central Banks, FED, US Treasury, Exchange Stabilization Fund, Plunge Protection Team, and the cartel of Goldman Sachs, JPM, and others that manipulate the markets at will. The make the rules and get all the inside information. Yup, just one measly old team. It's odd that on most occasions when the president speaks publically on TV that the dollar rises the trading session before and gold falls.
Now that is odd!
roadrunner
2-3 Years of high gas prices that suddenly fall just before the election.
What an amazing coincidence!!! Gold is falling too , must mean that inflation is licked. Dow hits a new record, Man I can't wait to reelect my Republican, everything is so rosy!!!
Dow
be careful not to ruin it with any "war going bad stories", let's give the dumb voters a cover with pretty pictures.
When and if gold does go up past the YTD high, the fundementals for owning it will have been changed by then. The momentum driven speculation will be a smaller percentage of investment in the sector, and the fundementals for owning gold will become easily understood.
The recent highs on the Dow signal the end of a bull market that started in 2002. The S&P and Nasdaq are in no position to make the same
highs and without them there will be no broad market rally like so many are now expecting. Its very late in the game to be piling on new positions. Thats the job of the retail customer, and this is where fund managers rotate out and into the new sectors. They wont make money
buying high priced stock, so they pick the fundemental sector thats out of favor. A lot of commodities were overpriced on speculation 6 months
ago. Gold stocks have been battered since then, and a lot of Gold equity speculators are throwing in the towel because I have been watching it for myself. The true gold longs are watching this too and arent buying in any fear. Enjoy the inexpensive oil while you can, because oil has a lot less tendency to sell off and bottom during a war than it does at times of peace. 50.00 pbl oil wont happen in this environment. The demand
for oil is GROWING worldwide, and any dip in price is moved higher again out of need. The Jackpot field found in the Gulf wont be mined until 2013, and OPEC again announced cuts again today. Its unfortunate oil is so expensive, but OIL is worth what has to be paid for it when demand is rising. Any short term supply gluts are quickly obsorbed.
<< <i>THIS HAS BEEN ONE OF MY BEST FINANCAL INVESTMENT MONTHS IN 4 YEARS. Shorted energy stocks BJS, XTO and EOG. I can't believe how well I did - I thought it would be a year. THANK YOU markets for always dropping hard anything that sky-rockets upward. Should have shorted Gold, but had enough shorts. AMERICA ROCKS!!!!
Don't think the DOW breaking records is any big deal. The other major indexes are still no where close to their highs. The DOW has a measly 30 stocks. Who cares.
And all you foolish nay sayers: Interest rates at record lows. Will not stay this way forever. Same with the Dollar vs. foreign currencies. Will not stay that low forever either. We all know the economy is slowing. Wait when it turns around too. You aint seen nothing yet!!!
I am betting energy to sky-rocket again, come winter months. It is soooo easy
Don't ever think one measly U.S. leader can manipulate anything. WHATEVER goes straight up fast, goes down just as fast. Oil, building materials, housing, gold, silver. Those were the recent high-risers, and they will be replaced by something else...
...no matter who the president is. >>
The other major indexes being nowhere near their highs while the DOW sets a new record is called a divergence. It's a bearish indicator because it means that money is flowing out of the broader market into select dividend paying bluechip stocks.
As for your other plays, they were probably sound but don't get too confident. The difference between making a good profit and losing your shirt may have been the timing of bombing Iran nuclear facilities, OPEC announcing an oil production cut, (which just happened) or a severe hurricane that never happened.
As for the dollar, it's already dead. People just don't know it yet. As I've said many times, even a science fiction writer could not figure out a way to meet our obligations over the next 20 years. It cannot be done.
I need to question one small but potenially signicant post.
You said:
<< <i>The national debt is just getting started. Baby boomers start receiving Medicare in 2011, and Social Security checks in 2014. >>
Didn't you mean Social Security checks in 2011 and Medicare in 2014???????????????
<< <i>So LLoyd you don't see a manipulation. 2-3 Years of high gas prices that suddenly fall just before the election. What an amazing coincidence!!! Gold is falling too , must mean that inflation is licked. Dow hits a new record, Man I can't wait to reelect my Republican, everything is so rosy!!! Dow be careful not to ruin it with any "war going bad stories", let's give the dumb voters a cover with pretty pictures.
I don't think Mr Bond would support your solf-on-terrorism views.
No shortage of speculators in this forum.
That's it....I'm selling all of my gold & silver and investing all of the profit in "nice suits".
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
Well, I honestly did NOT think energy would go down so fast. And I DO NOT believe there is a conspiracy. This is why:
Republicans, (the have's that are tired of taking care of the wannabes, free-loaders and have-nots) will VOTE REPUBLICAN ANYWAY. The Democrats (whiners, "Where-is-my-free-lunch?", and "the rich are not doing enough for my bottom line" have nots) dislike Bush and will vote DEMOCRATIC anyway.
The economy will not dictate a thing at the polls. If it does, Americans are still very disgruntled about it, and this recent drop in energy will not have an impact on voting, IMO.
The Gov has been in debt heavily before. The ECONOMY turns around some day, and walla!! IT'S GONE!!! Worked for Reagan, FDR.
To keep this thread from nuking: Rare coins and key dates and condition census rarities are still shooting to the moon in prices. Where is the slowdown??? Gold and Silver still very high??? Where's the slowdown there??
<< <i> This is why:Republicans, (the have's that are tired of taking care of the wannabes, free-loaders and have-nots) will VOTE REPUBLICAN ANYWAY. The Democrats (whiners, "Where-is-my-free-lunch?", and "the rich are not doing enough for my bottom line" have nots) dislike Bush and will vote DEMOCRATIC anyway. >>
You gotta love it !!
<< <i>No shortage of speculators...
Well, I honestly did NOT think energy would go down so fast. And I DO NOT believe there is a conspiracy. This is why:
Republicans, (the have's that are tired of taking care of the wannabes, free-loaders and have-nots) will VOTE REPUBLICAN ANYWAY. The Democrats (whiners, "Where-is-my-free-lunch?", and "the rich are not doing enough for my bottom line" have nots) dislike Bush and will vote DEMOCRATIC anyway.
The economy will not dictate a thing at the polls. If it does, Americans are still very disgruntled about it, and this recent drop in energy will not have an impact on voting, IMO.
The Gov has been in debt heavily before. The ECONOMY turns around some day, and walla!! IT'S GONE!!! Worked for Reagan, FDR.
To keep this thread from nuking: Rare coins and key dates and condition census rarities are still shooting to the moon in prices. Where is the slowdown??? Gold and Silver still very high??? Where's the slowdown there??
>>
Oh my, where do I start
The Republicans are #1 on the freeloader list, they just aren't satisfied with a welfare check. They'd rather have a few million in unneeded defense contracts or farm subsidies. Both parties soak the gov't funds. The Democrats raise taxes to pay for it while the Republicans do it on borrowed money cutting taxes to the freeloading rich. Congress uses borrowed money to buy what the Romans called "bread and circus" to stay in office.
Gov't debt has never been close to this level before. Then add the State and local debt, social security and Medicare obligations and all the personal debt and it is staggering. I don't understand the Reagan comment. He took office complaining about the 1 trillion national debt, when he left it was 4 trillion and has NEVER gone been paid off one nickel.
The reason for the rise in Gold/silver is simple. The world is saving and they are worried about saving dollars. They are moving into something more safe. Meanwhile the nation that 50 years ago had the largest stockpile of gold and silver will soon have none.
<< <i> feel that gold and oil prices are totally out of the control of anyone in govt. China, Russia have much more impact on Gold and Oil prices than anyone else. It's bid market and the highest bidder gets the oil/gold. If China doesn't need oil this quarter, oil goes down. If France's central bank dumps gold, it'll go down too. I expect higher gold and oil by Christmas. (France is done dumping, btw)
>>
Oh were sorry, that was a "misquote"
link
France didn't sell any gold, Just more obstufucation from Barclays, a major gold manipulator.
And just in time for the election period. Thanks Treasury head Paulson (ex GS head) and Goldman Sachs for helping everyone out.
There's no stone left unturned when it comes to an election! I think even the BLS would be impressed with Goldman's manipulation!
Geez you'd wonder why this rebalancing occured in July of this year rather than last year or say in late November of this year? Do ya think that major funds selling 75% of their gas futures would have an effect on the markets and the price of gas? Uh maybe?
Gasoline tweaks
The Bush family has a nice little arrangement with the Saudi's. I'm sure a phone call here or there can help with adjusting oil prices up or down or changing availability when needed. You scratch mine, I'll scratch yours. While it may be difficult to adjust the prices around the world, Bush would only be interested in US oil prices paid. This certainly can be manipulated in the short term. A month is plenty short term enough.
roadrunner