<< <i>All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth. It includes all surprises, tricks, cunning or dissembling, and any unfair way which another is cheated. >>
how, in a legal sense, does removing a scratch from a coin either make a false suggestion or suppress the truth? how would that differ from waxing a used car & selling it w/out disclosing the wax job?
K S >>
Karl, I'm beginning to think we're going to have to disagree here, but I will try again. If you wax a used car and pass it off as new, I believe that would be fraud. If you wax a used car and don't pass it off as new, that would not be fraud. That's why I had stated (and please note the AND part) "To me, and possibly under the law, it would depend upon the reasons for the "improving" AND the subsequent representations made (or perhaps silence) by the one who did it." >>
I don't see someone lasering a 1900 XXX and passing it off as new. Just a nice quality coin with no blemmishes. Fraud? Not if no one can tell and the "fix" doesn't wear off. I had bad damage to the paint on my car I was selling. It looked good if I waxed it, but only until the next rain. I waxed it twice a week the couple of weeks I was showing it to potential buyers. I don't think it was fraud, as if they wanted it to look shiny they had to wax it every time it rained.
Lasering a coin is permanent, I assume, and makes the coin look better, I assume. For the registry folks, if they can get a PF70 coin, I don't think they care if it was lasered or not. Only the "true" numistmatist really cares, I assume.
Jonathan
I have been a collector for over mumbly-five years. I learn something new every day.
I think that's covered in Sec. 331, above, "lightens," and "with fraudulent intent." Anybody who is lasering coins or whatever else to make them appear to be new, better, whatever to get more money than they're actually worth clearly has a fraudulent intent unless they do it just to store in their own collection to look shiny or something. If they sell it after they do it, it would be hard to argue no fraud was intended.
I sort of wonder how all these "colorized" coin people get away with the colorizing, myself (speaking of the painted coins, but then, it could apply to the AT ones, too).
<< <i>If you wax a used car and pass it off as new, I believe that would be fraud. If you wax a used car and don't pass it off as new, that would not be fraud. That's why I had stated (and please note the AND part) "To me, and possibly under the law, it would depend upon the reasons for the "improving" AND the subsequent representations made (or perhaps silence) by the one who did it." >>
so if i just wax the ole jalopy & prop up a "for sale" sign, i can mention simply that it's "used" w/out having to state that it's waxed & vacuumed, don't you agree? i mean, all i tried to do was make it look as good as it could, but i never said it looks new", just that it's "used but looks nice". so why can't i go ahead & clean up the old coins & truthfully state "they're used but look nice"?
<< <i>I think that's covered in Sec. 331, above, "lightens," and "with fraudulent intent." Anybody who is lasering coins or whatever else to make them appear to be new, better, whatever to get more money than they're actually worth clearly has a fraudulent intent >>
how does that statute apply?
It says (as quoted): Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States ... Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
lasering a scratch off a coin does not fall under any of the actions mentioned.
<< <i>It says (as quoted): Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States ... Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
lasering a scratch off a coin does not fall under any of the actions mentioned.
K S >>
See the words "alters," "falsifies," "lightens?" Pick one.
"Fraudulently" is with the intent to deceive someone for something of value. Artificially raising the perceived value of a coin by altering it (and not disclosing that to a potential buyer) is fraud, pure and simple, IMHO.
The market is already full of 'altered' coins... be it from dipping, toning, lasering etc..... some detectable.. some not.... just as some people are experts, some are not.... but even the 'expert' qualification means that they 'believe' they can detect some forms of alteration... certainly not all forms... and certainly not the forms that have hitherto gone undetected. My humble suggestion is (since this is what it will all come down to eventually), collect what you like... because you like it. If you are in numismatics to make a profit - beware - you have already been fooled... and will be again.... human ingenuity continues .... I like my coins... for those of you wallowing in finite degrees of the altered state, may I suggest you probably are deriving more pleasure from the debate than you are from your coins. It is a hobby - not a religion. Cheers, RickO
i understand that "fraud" is a legal term, & that for something to qualify as fraud, it MUST break a law.
Certainly NOT true. Fraud can be and often is the basis of claims in civil court. Nobody here seems to recognize that important distinction. It's MUCH harder to convince a prosecutor to bring criminal fraud charges which are much harder to prove. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is the high burden that must be met to bring criminal charges while anyone can file a civil lawsuit with any allegations. And to win a civil suit one must only convince the jury that your story is more likely than not (51% probability).
The laws from the US Code that are cited by Linda don't apply as the intent of all of these is to prohibit the counterfeiting or removal of precious metal from coins. There are also laws that state that one can't deface or otherwise alter the surfaces of paper money. These were enacted to prevent the raising of a note's denomination-a practice which goes back at least 200 years. Writing on a dollar bill may be technically illegal but if the intent isn't to defraud, you are unlikely to find a prosecutor who will file charges. Intent is everything.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
<< <i><< It says (as quoted): Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States ... Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
lasering a scratch off a coin does not fall under any of the actions mentioned.
K S >>
See the words "alters," "falsifies," "lightens?" Pick one.[/quote]
lemme see, lasering definitely doesn't "lighten" a coin, it doesn't falsify a coin either (it's still a coin). so does it alter it? i think not, if i laser off a scrtch, the coin is still what it is - A COIN. period. THAT'S what the law is all about.
so you still haven't given any reason to believe lasering a scratch off a coin is illegal.
<< <i>"Fraudulently" is with the intent to deceive someone for something of value. Artificially raising the perceived value of a coin by altering it (and not disclosing that to a potential buyer) is fraud, pure and simple, IMHO. >>
sorry you feel that way, but your unfortunately, wrong. adding value to something is THE BASIS OF OUR COUNTRY'S ENTIRE ECONOMIC SYSTEM.
& there's no such thing as "artificially raising perceived value". either the value is raised or it is'nt, & "perceived" is redundant w/ regard to the term "value". ALL value is "perceived".
<< <i>I sort of wonder how all these "colorized" coin people get away with the colorizing, myself (speaking of the painted coins, but then, it could apply to the AT ones, too). >>
Those people usually don't try to pass off colored coins for something they are not. Also I doubt they colorize ASE's to hide those unattractive milk spots.
It might be fraud, but getting a conviction is a whole different story.
Every used car salesman in the country commits a similar type of fraud nearly every working day. It is not worth trying to prosecute them, and the $$$ involved are huge.
"Wars are really ugly! They're dirty and they're cold. I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole." Mary
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth. It includes all surprises, tricks, cunning or dissembling, and any unfair way which another is cheated. >>
how, in a legal sense, does removing a scratch from a coin either make a false suggestion or suppress the truth? how would that differ from waxing a used car & selling it w/out disclosing the wax job?
K S >>
Karl, I'm beginning to think we're going to have to disagree here, but I will try again. If you wax a used car and pass it off as new, I believe that would be fraud. If you wax a used car and don't pass it off as new, that would not be fraud. That's why I had stated (and please note the AND part) "To me, and possibly under the law, it would depend upon the reasons for the "improving" AND the subsequent representations made (or perhaps silence) by the one who did it." >>
I don't see someone lasering a 1900 XXX and passing it off as new. Just a nice quality coin with no blemmishes. Fraud? Not if no one can tell and the "fix" doesn't wear off.
I had bad damage to the paint on my car I was selling. It looked good if I waxed it, but only until the next rain. I waxed it twice a week the couple of weeks I was showing it to potential buyers. I don't think it was fraud, as if they wanted it to look shiny they had to wax it every time it rained.
Lasering a coin is permanent, I assume, and makes the coin look better, I assume. For the registry folks, if they can get a PF70 coin, I don't think they care if it was lasered or not. Only the "true" numistmatist really cares, I assume.
Jonathan
I sort of wonder how all these "colorized" coin people get away with the colorizing, myself (speaking of the painted coins, but then, it could apply to the AT ones, too).
<< <i>If you wax a used car and pass it off as new, I believe that would be fraud. If you wax a used car and don't pass it off as new, that would not be fraud. That's why I had stated (and please note the AND part) "To me, and possibly under the law, it would depend upon the reasons for the "improving" AND the subsequent representations made (or perhaps silence) by the one who did it." >>
so if i just wax the ole jalopy & prop up a "for sale" sign, i can mention simply that it's "used" w/out having to state that it's waxed & vacuumed, don't you agree? i mean, all i tried to do was make it look as good as it could, but i never said it looks new", just that it's "used but looks nice". so why can't i go ahead & clean up the old coins & truthfully state "they're used but look nice"?
<< <i>I think that's covered in Sec. 331, above, "lightens," and "with fraudulent intent." Anybody who is lasering coins or whatever else to make them appear to be new, better, whatever to get more money than they're actually worth clearly has a fraudulent intent >>
how does that statute apply?
It says (as quoted):
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States ... Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
lasering a scratch off a coin does not fall under any of the actions mentioned.
K S
<< <i>It says (as quoted):
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States ... Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
lasering a scratch off a coin does not fall under any of the actions mentioned.
K S >>
See the words "alters," "falsifies," "lightens?" Pick one.
"Fraudulently" is with the intent to deceive someone for something of value. Artificially raising the perceived value of a coin by altering it (and not disclosing that to a potential buyer) is fraud, pure and simple, IMHO.
Certainly NOT true. Fraud can be and often is the basis of claims in civil court. Nobody here seems to recognize that important distinction. It's MUCH harder to convince a prosecutor to bring criminal fraud charges which are much harder to prove. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is the high burden that must be met to bring criminal charges while anyone can file a civil lawsuit with any allegations. And to win a civil suit one must only convince the jury that your story is more likely than not (51% probability).
The laws from the US Code that are cited by Linda don't apply as the intent of all of these is to prohibit the counterfeiting or removal of precious metal from coins. There are also laws that state that one can't deface or otherwise alter the surfaces of paper money. These were enacted to prevent the raising of a note's denomination-a practice which goes back at least 200 years. Writing on a dollar bill may be technically illegal but if the intent isn't to defraud, you are unlikely to find a prosecutor who will file charges. Intent is everything.
<< <i><< It says (as quoted):
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States ... Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
lasering a scratch off a coin does not fall under any of the actions mentioned.
K S >>
See the words "alters," "falsifies," "lightens?" Pick one.[/quote]
lemme see, lasering definitely doesn't "lighten" a coin, it doesn't falsify a coin either (it's still a coin). so does it alter it? i think not, if i laser off a scrtch, the coin is still what it is - A COIN. period. THAT'S what the law is all about.
so you still haven't given any reason to believe lasering a scratch off a coin is illegal.
<< <i>"Fraudulently" is with the intent to deceive someone for something of value. Artificially raising the perceived value of a coin by altering it (and not disclosing that to a potential buyer) is fraud, pure and simple, IMHO. >>
sorry you feel that way, but your unfortunately, wrong. adding value to something is THE BASIS OF OUR COUNTRY'S ENTIRE ECONOMIC SYSTEM.
& there's no such thing as "artificially raising perceived value". either the value is raised or it is'nt, & "perceived" is redundant w/ regard to the term "value". ALL value is "perceived".
K S
<< <i> understand that "fraud" is a legal term, & that for something to qualify as fraud, it MUST break a law.
Certainly NOT true. Fraud can be and often is the basis of claims in civil court. >>
your right, it must break a law or violate a contractual obligation
K S
<< <i>I sort of wonder how all these "colorized" coin people get away with the colorizing, myself (speaking of the painted coins, but then, it could apply to the AT ones, too). >>
Those people usually don't try to pass off colored coins for something they are not. Also I doubt they colorize ASE's to hide those unattractive milk spots.
Every used car salesman in the country commits a similar type of fraud nearly every working day. It is not worth trying to prosecute them, and the $$$ involved are huge.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
Pay your lawyer with fraudulent rare coins!!
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
<< <i>Every used car salesman in the country commits a similar type of fraud nearly every working day >>
examples please
K S