<< <i>before TPGs it was the same, except you collected coins instead of plastic. >>
Lots of my plastic has nice coins in it!! >>
Trust me....so does mine, 99% PCGS. I think I have three coins out of the couple hundred in NGC, the rest are PCGS.
I even call my registry set : "Plastic Housing Department" I know which side of my bread is buttered. And it's never been NGC with gold indians of the half eagle denomination I just like to ruffle feathers !
I admit before TPGs the dealers had the upper hand. So what's changed ?
This is just getting funnier and funnier---- people have been collecting coins for a long time folks. You know- I bet there were just as many (if not more) MS bust halves before TPG's came around as there were after they came around. The only thing that changed is before TPG's you had to HAVE A CLUE what you were buying---unlike today where a piece of plastic gets your hormones flowing instead of the coin inside. TPG's are great for authentication-that's it. I will buy/sell a coin based on what I think the coin is worth- not what a piece of plastic tells me.
And cut the crap about how it was soo bad before TPG's---- it was great having a relationship with your dealers who looked out for you and you in turn gave them your business. Today people actually consider their dealer to be a guy named greatcoinsscheap (powerseller***) or someone similar who has never met you, who ----I AM SURE--- has your best interests in mind...
Amanda--it was fine before TPG's---perhaps better for a few of us.
<< <i>Amanda--it was fine before TPG's---perhaps better for a few of us. >>
I learned to grade (a bit) before I even saw my first slabbed coin. I will never be distracted by the holder.
-Amanda >>
Someone who is willing to put the time into the "learning" part of this hobby, like yourself Amanda, is the kind of collector that TOTALLY enjoyed collecting before TPG's--- the more you knew, the better you did and the more fun you had doing it.
Why would you remove them after smoeone went to the trouble and expense to put them in there? As long as you know what you have why does it matter that its in a slab. To me a 93-s Morgan in ms63 is safer, better off and likely worth more in a PCGS slab than it is in a silly-ass Dansco. But to each his own. You can buy the coin AND the slab at the same time you know.
<< <i>Amanda--it was fine before TPG's---perhaps better for a few of us. >>
I learned to grade (a bit) before I even saw my first slabbed coin. I will never be distracted by the holder.
-Amanda >>
Someone who is willing to put the time into the "learning" part of this hobby, like yourself Amanda, is the kind of collector that TOTALLY enjoyed collecting before TPG's--- the more you knew, the better you did and the more fun you had doing it. >>
One aspect not yet included on this thread is the Investment angle. Pioneers such as Bowers, Hall, Marena, et. al. desired to expand the market beyond the average coin hobbyist to include the serious investor. So they came up with the Third Party "independent" grading concept to lure the non-hobbyist dollar into the coin market. You see they weren't satisfied with the ordinary profits from selling coins. And most general investors woud rather buy a used car from a Used car salesman than buy a coin from a used car saleman-like coin dealer. So they devised a so-called 'impartial' system to present rare coins as investments, which is manifested in the plastic entombed products of today.
I collected my first coin when I was 8. I got a 1938 Jefferson Nickel in change from the local gas station/general store. My older brother gave me a used Whithman Deluxe album and that nickel fit in the very first slot! I thought: "This is going to be easy!" Well it wasn't exactly easy but I was hooked. I continued to collect into my early teen years until I reach the point where dates with girls, dances, movies and High school sports were more fun then collecting.
I got back into the hobby just as the slabbing craze was beginning. I was only interested in raw coins and the slabs turned me off. I couldn't understand the value of paying $40 to slab a $100 Morgan. I started my hobby when the TPG concept was foreign to most collectors. I could grade any circulated coin and I could tell the difference between Choice Uncirculated, Brilliant Uncirculated and Gem Uncirculated, but I could not tell the difference between MS-65 & MS-66. But evidently, someone alleges that they can and they earn a pretty good living at convincing the most of us of their expertise!
Back to the pioneers. In the 1980's they began to perfect the TPG concept. And they started to attract big money to the coin industry. Sure there were lots of obstacles along they way, some scandals and not so desirable investor/seller characters (Tom Noe). But all told, the "pioneers" were very successful in changing the coin industry as we know it today.
I still don't think that any human can tell the difference between MS-65 or MS-66. But often times just one point may mean the difference between thousands of dollars realized on a transaction. I also doubt how successful the "pioneers" have been at establishing the slabbed coin as a quality investment-grade product. Although with prices at 12x inflation over the years I could be wrong.
I do believe that TPGs are successful enterprises and especially they help to encourage the crack-out game. The more you crack 'em out and resubmit 'em, the more they make.
<--- Stepping off my high horse now ---->
I don't think TPGs are bad, nor do I think they are good. But they have altered the hobby and they are here to stay. I don't necessarily long for the bygone era, but I do steer away from slabbed coins. Like DorkKarl, I prefer raw coins and my own ability to grade and valuate potential additions to my collection. I think the "pioneers" of the TPG system have been successful in adding value to and inflating the prices of all coins.
Keep collecting!
Edited: for grammar.
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i><< before tpg$, coins were MUCH MUCH more affordable
K S >>
So was gas, bread, houses, cars, etc. What's your point? Slabs have been around for 20 years and we've had a lot of inflation since then. The cost of everything has gone up. >>
dude, GET - REAL.
the cost of mundane things has gone up at the pace of inflation, ie IS INFLATION. the absurd price of today's coins FAAAAAAAAR exceeds that of inflation. it's not even close, there's no comparison!
THAT IS . . . . . . .. . . THE POINT
i remember when the world's most expensive coin was about $100,000, today its 8 MILLION? does YOUR food now cost you EIGHTY TIMES what it did 30 years ago??? i want whatever the he11 it is your eating!!!
20 years ago, what was the most expensive coin, brasher doubloon at around maybe 700K? again, where is the inflation you see that's gone up by a factor of TWELVE in just 20 years? it ain't happening!
the single factor that has driven up the price of coins to absurd heights comes down to 1 main thing: hyped up PLA$TIC. better keep working on your sets of unc jeffy nickels, 'cuz most of you sure as he11 can't afford to complete a set of even unc merc dimes at today's ridiculous price$. for that matter, it won't be long before pla$tic madness runs the cost of even jeffy's out of reach.
K S >>
The coins you give as examples are hardly typical of the overall market. Many coins trade today for less than what they traded for in 1979 which was 7 years before slabbing began. I'm not sure how much slabs contribute to the high prices of todays coins but I'm sure it's some amount since it gives the investor types confidence to buy coins that they would otherwise be affraid to touch as raw.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Why would you remove them after smoeone went to the trouble and expense to put them in there? As long as you know what you have why does it matter that its in a slab. To me a 93-s Morgan in ms63 is safer, better off and likely worth more in a PCGS slab than it is in a silly-ass Dansco. But to each his own. You can buy the coin AND the slab at the same time you know. >>
you ever tried to look at the edge of a bust half while it's stuck in crappy pla$tic? dunno about your x-ray vision, but mine don't work too good at my age
oh, when was the last time you could afford a 93-s morgan in pcg$ m$-63???
<< <i>The coins you give as examples are hardly typical of the overall market >>
oh gee, your right, let's pick something else, say.... a 1950-d jefferson nickel in pla$tic ms-66. what's that go for these days? 60? 70? 100? you know what those cost 30 years ago? 1 DOLLAR.
let's try another, how about something really typical, a 1830 bust half in pla$tic au-58. legend pays about $500 for these right now! what did they cost 30 years ago? THIRTY BUCKS.
now you tell me, are THOSE coins "hardly typical" of the overall market? & you gonna blame THOSE numbers on "inflation"???
<< <i>Many coins trade today for less than what they traded for in 1979 which was 7 years before slabbing began >>
uh yeah, that would be called BULLION
<< <i>I'm not sure how much slabs contribute to the high prices of todays coins but I'm sure it's some amount since it gives the investor types confidence to buy coins that they would otherwise be affraid to touch as raw. >>
here we are in agreement. so i ask, if someone is so afraid of coins, why even bother to collect 'em? there's MANY other things out there that can be collected w/out fear
<< <i>you ever tried to look at the edge of a bust half while it's stuck in crappy pla$tic? dunno about your x-ray vision, but mine don't work too good at my age >>
If the obv and rev are fine, to me its not worth removing the coin from the slab in order to see the "third" side. I'll play the odds that the edge is fine too.
well for me, i'll never understand why you would pay for something, then only wanna look at 2/3 of it. makes no sense. whether the edge is "fine" or not is'nt the issue, it's my coin, & i wanna see it.
<< <i><< I'm not sure how much slabs contribute to the high prices of todays coins but I'm sure it's some amount since it gives the investor types confidence to buy coins that they would otherwise be affraid to touch as raw. >> >>
Slabs and slabbing standards definitely have an effect on prices. If this slide continues and standards tighten as others have mentioned, the double whammy in price inflation will become more evident, as, 1. prices decrease due to softening demand, and, 2. yesterday's AU 58 becomes tomorrow's AU 50 or EF 45. This sort of pricing increase happened on the way up in reverse of that above, and can definitely happen again.
If you doubt that grading standards have changed that much, look at catalogs from the 70s and 80s. Compare the Eliasberg 1822 $5 at VF 30 to today's AU 50, or a Norweb, or Pittman. Compare the Garrett 1802 half dollar, then EF, now PCGS 50. Whose raw EF 1802 half of today is worth the same as a PCGS 50? If you think this only applies to coins from legendary collections, look on ebay for an auction catalog from 1985 or earlier and compare coins from your favorite series to slabbed examples of today.
Shifting standards by the slab mills have added a hidden premium to coin values, and that can all be taken away, leaving a seller with a big bite mark in the hindquarters.
<< <i>oh, when was the last time you could afford a 93-s morgan in pcg$ m$-63??? >>
Well I NEVER!!
If I really really wanted one I could find the means to get it. It mite not be the wisest thing I've ever done, but I could do it. At the present time I don't want one badly enough to pay the piper what it would take to get one. The hardest part would be convincing Dave Hall to make a blue box that holds one slab cuz thats about all I'd have left.
<< <i>If I really really wanted one I could find the means to get it. It mite not be the wisest thing I've ever done, but I could do it >>
it just so happens that i have a 1980 krause price guide in front of me - allegedly at the "top" of the market back then, i also have a latest trends
let's see, 1893-s morgan?
today's cost in pla$tic-65? 400,000 in pla$tic. that's right, the cost of a very nice house in the inner chicago suburbs. you & i don't have a snowball's chance in he11 of ownig something like that.
26 years ago? it cost only 44,000 - still alot, in fact, the cost of a very nice car, but not the cost of a very nice house.
try another, say a s-vdb. todays pla$tic-xf = 1300, in 1980 = $225! SIX-FOLD increase
try a 1948 frankie, pla$tic-65 fbl = an absurd 200, in 1980, you could get these for $15, FIFTEEN-HUNDRED %
1930 slq, plas$tic-65 = 1100, in 1980 it was 160
oh & the 1916? pla$tic-60 = 18,000, in 1980, only 2500
the list goes on & on. oh & guess what, the more common stuff that doesn't get slabed, like lower grades or common dates? THOSE DO ONLY RISE ABOUT W/ INFLATION. it's just the plastic holder that had driven prices out of reach of normal collectors.
sure, inflation has increased the cost of everything in the last 26 years, but definitely NOT gone up by a factor of 600, 700, 1500%. there's only 1 main reason for the absurd cost increases, & it has nothing to do w/coins.
Multiply 2005 dollar values by 0.422 to convert those values to 1980 dollars. So, it would take $400,000 in today's money to buy what could be had for $168,800 in 1980. The problem with your analysis, Karl, is that there are factors other than inflation and plastic that could account for price increases. For example, how do you know that the price increases are attributable to plastic instead of to an increased demand created by growth in the hobby?
today's cost in pla$tic-65? 400,000 in pla$tic. that's right, the cost of a very nice house in the inner chicago suburbs. you & i don't have a snowball's chance in he11 of ownig something like that.
.................
Couple friends of mine had one on here 2 weeks ago for $175K PCGS graded ms63; two days later it was on hold.
<< <i>The problem with your analysis, Karl, is that there are factors other than inflation and plastic that could account for price increases. For example, how do you know that the price increases are attributable to plastic instead of to an increased demand created by growth in the hobby? >>
some small portion of the increase IS due to an expanded mkt, & i don't deny that. i say that MOST of the drastic price increases are due to pla$tic, NOT ALL, but definitely most.
<< <i>Couple friends of mine had one on here 2 weeks ago for $175K PCGS graded ms63; two days later it was on hold >>
26 years ago, it probably could of been bought outright or w/ a small personal loan, instead of on a 2nd mortgage
<< <i>It was fine Amanda. It forced you to learn how to grade yourself. I remember 3 grades of MS. BU- around MS60 CHBU- around MS63 GEMBU- around MS65
You paid higher for PQ of any of the above and lower for the baggy stuff. >>
<< <i>...but I could not tell the difference between MS-65 & MS-66. But evidently, someone alleges that they can and they earn a pretty good living at convincing the most of us of their expertise! >>
DieClash; It really depends on how you define your terms and in the specific coins involved. There are huge differences between coins in strike, preservation, and marking. Obviously no matter what definition are used there will be some coins that are right in between one grade and another. There is variation over time in how individuals and the market weigh the various factors which make up the attributes of a coin or the parameters of the grade. There is too fine a line to consistently differentiate two coins chosen at random from most series.
However there is a range of quality from the worst to the best in all series and for each quality of a coin. A specific coin can easily be rated on a scale of one to eleven for strike, one to eleven for die state or one to eleven for marking. Two coins in adjacent grades which are TYPICAL FOR THE GRADE can easily be distinguished even by a novice. This may mean little when grading a series of ancients which are rarely found in unc and never in a "typical grade" but it does mean much more when grading something like Japaness cu/ ni 100Y. These latter coins tend to come "typical" for whatever their grade is. There are few sliders and strike quality is fairly consistent.
It is not so much that grading to eleven levels is splitting hairs then that there are so few "typical" coins in many series and there are more judgement calls for preservation and originality. If it were truly too fine a distinction then prices between adjacent grades wouldn't be so great. Collectors have been pay- ing a great deal of attention to condition for a quarter century now and it has resulted in eleven divisions of unc and the grading services to give a professional opinion for the more valuable coins.
Comments
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>before TPGs it was the same, except you collected coins instead of plastic. >>
Lots of my plastic has nice coins in it!! >>
Trust me....so does mine, 99% PCGS. I think I have three coins out of the couple hundred in NGC, the rest are PCGS.
I even call my registry set : "Plastic Housing Department"
I know which side of my bread is buttered.
And it's never been NGC with gold indians of the half eagle denomination
I just like to ruffle feathers !
I admit before TPGs the dealers had the upper hand. So what's changed ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
gets around after that "Dont mess with the Bear".
Camelot
You know- I bet there were just as many (if not more) MS bust halves before TPG's came around as there were after they came around. The only thing that changed is before TPG's you had to HAVE A CLUE what you were buying---unlike today where a piece of plastic gets your hormones flowing instead of the coin inside.
TPG's are great for authentication-that's it.
I will buy/sell a coin based on what I think the coin is worth- not what a piece of plastic tells me.
And cut the crap about how it was soo bad before TPG's---- it was great having a relationship with your dealers who looked out for you and you in turn gave them your business.
Today people actually consider their dealer to be a guy named greatcoinsscheap (powerseller***) or someone similar who has never met you, who ----I AM SURE--- has your best interests in mind...
Amanda--it was fine before TPG's---perhaps better for a few of us.
<< <i>Amanda--it was fine before TPG's---perhaps better for a few of us. >>
I learned to grade (a bit) before I even saw my first slabbed coin. I will never be distracted by the holder.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
<< <i>
<< <i>Amanda--it was fine before TPG's---perhaps better for a few of us. >>
I learned to grade (a bit) before I even saw my first slabbed coin. I will never be distracted by the holder.
-Amanda >>
Someone who is willing to put the time into the "learning" part of this hobby, like yourself Amanda, is the kind of collector that TOTALLY enjoyed collecting before TPG's--- the more you knew, the better you did and the more fun you had doing it.
you can remedy the problem easily!
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Why would you remove them after smoeone went to the trouble and expense to put them in there? As long as you know what you have why does it matter that its in a slab. To me a 93-s Morgan in ms63 is safer, better off and likely worth more in a PCGS slab than it is in a silly-ass Dansco. But to each his own. You can buy the coin AND the slab at the same time you know.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Amanda--it was fine before TPG's---perhaps better for a few of us. >>
I learned to grade (a bit) before I even saw my first slabbed coin. I will never be distracted by the holder.
-Amanda >>
Someone who is willing to put the time into the "learning" part of this hobby, like yourself Amanda, is the kind of collector that TOTALLY enjoyed collecting before TPG's--- the more you knew, the better you did and the more fun you had doing it. >>
Gee, now I feel as if I have missed out!
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
<< <i>Gee, now I feel as if I have missed out!
-Amanda >>
One aspect not yet included on this thread is the Investment angle. Pioneers such as Bowers, Hall, Marena, et. al. desired to expand the market beyond the average coin hobbyist to include the serious investor. So they came up with the Third Party "independent" grading concept to lure the non-hobbyist dollar into the coin market. You see they weren't satisfied with the ordinary profits from selling coins. And most general investors woud rather buy a used car from a Used car salesman than buy a coin from a used car saleman-like coin dealer. So they devised a so-called 'impartial' system to present rare coins as investments, which is manifested in the plastic entombed products of today.
I collected my first coin when I was 8. I got a 1938 Jefferson Nickel in change from the local gas station/general store. My older brother gave me a used Whithman Deluxe album and that nickel fit in the very first slot! I thought: "This is going to be easy!" Well it wasn't exactly easy but I was hooked. I continued to collect into my early teen years until I reach the point where dates with girls, dances, movies and High school sports were more fun then collecting.
I got back into the hobby just as the slabbing craze was beginning. I was only interested in raw coins and the slabs turned me off. I couldn't understand the value of paying $40 to slab a $100 Morgan. I started my hobby when the TPG concept was foreign to most collectors. I could grade any circulated coin and I could tell the difference between Choice Uncirculated, Brilliant Uncirculated and Gem Uncirculated, but I could not tell the difference between MS-65 & MS-66. But evidently, someone alleges that they can and they earn a pretty good living at convincing the most of us of their expertise!
Back to the pioneers. In the 1980's they began to perfect the TPG concept. And they started to attract big money to the coin industry. Sure there were lots of obstacles along they way, some scandals and not so desirable investor/seller characters (Tom Noe). But all told, the "pioneers" were very successful in changing the coin industry as we know it today.
I still don't think that any human can tell the difference between MS-65 or MS-66. But often times just one point may mean the difference between thousands of dollars realized on a transaction.
I do believe that TPGs are successful enterprises and especially they help to encourage the crack-out game. The more you crack 'em out and resubmit 'em, the more they make.
<--- Stepping off my high horse now ---->
I don't think TPGs are bad, nor do I think they are good. But they have altered the hobby and they are here to stay. I don't necessarily long for the bygone era, but I do steer away from slabbed coins. Like DorkKarl, I prefer raw coins and my own ability to grade and valuate potential additions to my collection. I think the "pioneers" of the TPG system have been successful in adding value to and inflating the prices of all coins.
Keep collecting!
Edited: for grammar.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>
<< <i><< before tpg$, coins were MUCH MUCH more affordable
K S >>
So was gas, bread, houses, cars, etc. What's your point? Slabs have been around for 20 years and we've had a lot of inflation since then. The cost of everything has gone up. >>
dude, GET - REAL.
the cost of mundane things has gone up at the pace of inflation, ie IS INFLATION. the absurd price of today's coins FAAAAAAAAR exceeds that of inflation. it's not even close, there's no comparison!
THAT IS . . . . . . .. . . THE POINT
i remember when the world's most expensive coin was about $100,000, today its 8 MILLION? does YOUR food now cost you EIGHTY TIMES what it did 30 years ago??? i want whatever the he11 it is your eating!!!
20 years ago, what was the most expensive coin, brasher doubloon at around maybe 700K? again, where is the inflation you see that's gone up by a factor of TWELVE in just 20 years? it ain't happening!
the single factor that has driven up the price of coins to absurd heights comes down to 1 main thing: hyped up PLA$TIC. better keep working on your sets of unc jeffy nickels, 'cuz most of you sure as he11 can't afford to complete a set of even unc merc dimes at today's ridiculous price$. for that matter, it won't be long before pla$tic madness runs the cost of even jeffy's out of reach.
K S >>
The coins you give as examples are hardly typical of the overall market. Many coins trade today for less than what they traded for in 1979 which was 7 years before slabbing began. I'm not sure how much slabs contribute to the high prices of todays coins but I'm sure it's some amount since it gives the investor types confidence to buy coins that they would otherwise be affraid to touch as raw.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Why would you remove them after smoeone went to the trouble and expense to put them in there? As long as you know what you have why does it matter that its in a slab. To me a 93-s Morgan in ms63 is safer, better off and likely worth more in a PCGS slab than it is in a silly-ass Dansco. But to each his own. You can buy the coin AND the slab at the same time you know. >>
you ever tried to look at the edge of a bust half while it's stuck in crappy pla$tic? dunno about your x-ray vision, but mine don't work too good at my age
oh, when was the last time you could afford a 93-s morgan in pcg$ m$-63???
K S
<< <i>The coins you give as examples are hardly typical of the overall market >>
oh gee, your right, let's pick something else, say.... a 1950-d jefferson nickel in pla$tic ms-66. what's that go for these days? 60? 70? 100? you know what those cost 30 years ago? 1 DOLLAR.
let's try another, how about something really typical, a 1830 bust half in pla$tic au-58. legend pays about $500 for these right now! what did they cost 30 years ago? THIRTY BUCKS.
now you tell me, are THOSE coins "hardly typical" of the overall market? & you gonna blame THOSE numbers on "inflation"???
<< <i>Many coins trade today for less than what they traded for in 1979 which was 7 years before slabbing began >>
uh yeah, that would be called BULLION
<< <i>I'm not sure how much slabs contribute to the high prices of todays coins but I'm sure it's some amount since it gives the investor types confidence to buy coins that they would otherwise be affraid to touch as raw. >>
here we are in agreement. so i ask, if someone is so afraid of coins, why even bother to collect 'em? there's MANY other things out there that can be collected w/out fear
K S
<< <i>you ever tried to look at the edge of a bust half while it's stuck in crappy pla$tic? dunno about your x-ray vision, but mine don't work too good at my age >>
If the obv and rev are fine, to me its not worth removing the coin from the slab in order to see the "third" side. I'll play the odds that the edge is fine too.
K S
<< <i><< I'm not sure how much slabs contribute to the high prices of todays coins but I'm sure it's some amount since it gives the investor types confidence to buy coins that they would otherwise be affraid to touch as raw. >> >>
Slabs and slabbing standards definitely have an effect on prices. If this slide continues and standards tighten as others have mentioned, the double whammy in price inflation will become more evident, as, 1. prices decrease due to softening demand, and, 2. yesterday's AU 58 becomes tomorrow's AU 50 or EF 45. This sort of pricing increase happened on the way up in reverse of that above, and can definitely happen again.
If you doubt that grading standards have changed that much, look at catalogs from the 70s and 80s. Compare the Eliasberg 1822 $5 at VF 30 to today's AU 50, or a Norweb, or Pittman. Compare the Garrett 1802 half dollar, then EF, now PCGS 50. Whose raw EF 1802 half of today is worth the same as a PCGS 50? If you think this only applies to coins from legendary collections, look on ebay for an auction catalog from 1985 or earlier and compare coins from your favorite series to slabbed examples of today.
Shifting standards by the slab mills have added a hidden premium to coin values, and that can all be taken away, leaving a seller with a big bite mark in the hindquarters.
<< <i>oh, when was the last time you could afford a 93-s morgan in pcg$ m$-63??? >>
Well I NEVER!!
If I really really wanted one I could find the means to get it. It mite not be the wisest thing I've ever done, but I could do it. At the present time I don't want one badly enough to pay the piper what it would take to get one. The hardest part would be convincing Dave Hall to make a blue box that holds one slab cuz thats about all I'd have left.
<< <i>If I really really wanted one I could find the means to get it. It mite not be the wisest thing I've ever done, but I could do it >>
it just so happens that i have a 1980 krause price guide in front of me - allegedly at the "top" of the market back then, i also have a latest trends
let's see, 1893-s morgan?
today's cost in pla$tic-65? 400,000 in pla$tic. that's right, the cost of a very nice house in the inner chicago suburbs. you & i don't have a snowball's chance in he11 of ownig something like that.
26 years ago? it cost only 44,000 - still alot, in fact, the cost of a very nice car, but not the cost of a very nice house.
try another, say a s-vdb. todays pla$tic-xf = 1300, in 1980 = $225! SIX-FOLD increase
16-d dime, pla$tic-60 = 14,000, 1980 = 1900 SEVEN-TIMES
maybe we should look at some more common stuff?
try a 1948 frankie, pla$tic-65 fbl = an absurd 200, in 1980, you could get these for $15, FIFTEEN-HUNDRED %
1930 slq, plas$tic-65 = 1100, in 1980 it was 160
oh & the 1916? pla$tic-60 = 18,000, in 1980, only 2500
the list goes on & on. oh & guess what, the more common stuff that doesn't get slabed, like lower grades or common dates? THOSE DO ONLY RISE ABOUT W/ INFLATION. it's just the plastic holder that had driven prices out of reach of normal collectors.
sure, inflation has increased the cost of everything in the last 26 years, but definitely NOT gone up by a factor of 600, 700, 1500%. there's only 1 main reason for the absurd cost increases, & it has nothing to do w/coins.
it's called PLA$TIC, specifically PLA$TIC HYPE
K S
today's cost in pla$tic-65? 400,000 in pla$tic. that's right, the cost of a very nice house in the inner chicago suburbs. you & i don't have a snowball's chance in he11 of ownig something like that.
.................
Couple friends of mine had one on here 2 weeks ago for $175K PCGS graded ms63; two days later it was on hold.
<< <i>The problem with your analysis, Karl, is that there are factors other than inflation and plastic that could account for price increases. For example, how do you know that the price increases are attributable to plastic instead of to an increased demand created by growth in the hobby? >>
some small portion of the increase IS due to an expanded mkt, & i don't deny that. i say that MOST of the drastic price increases are due to pla$tic, NOT ALL, but definitely most.
<< <i>Couple friends of mine had one on here 2 weeks ago for $175K PCGS graded ms63; two days later it was on hold >>
26 years ago, it probably could of been bought outright or w/ a small personal loan, instead of on a 2nd mortgage
K S
<< <i>It was fine Amanda. It forced you to learn how to grade yourself.
I remember 3 grades of MS.
BU- around MS60
CHBU- around MS63
GEMBU- around MS65
You paid higher for PQ of any of the above and lower for the baggy stuff. >>
Todays MS65 = Yesteryears -63
Todays MS67 = Yesteryears -65
Todays MS70 = nonexistant
<< <i>...but I could not tell the difference between MS-65 & MS-66. But evidently, someone alleges that they can and they earn a pretty good living at convincing the most of us of their expertise! >>
DieClash; It really depends on how you define your terms and in the specific coins involved. There
are huge differences between coins in strike, preservation, and marking. Obviously no matter what
definition are used there will be some coins that are right in between one grade and another. There
is variation over time in how individuals and the market weigh the various factors which make up the
attributes of a coin or the parameters of the grade. There is too fine a line to consistently differentiate
two coins chosen at random from most series.
However there is a range of quality from the worst to the best in all series and for each quality of a coin.
A specific coin can easily be rated on a scale of one to eleven for strike, one to eleven for die state or
one to eleven for marking. Two coins in adjacent grades which are TYPICAL FOR THE GRADE can easily
be distinguished even by a novice. This may mean little when grading a series of ancients which are
rarely found in unc and never in a "typical grade" but it does mean much more when grading something
like Japaness cu/ ni 100Y. These latter coins tend to come "typical" for whatever their grade is. There
are few sliders and strike quality is fairly consistent.
It is not so much that grading to eleven levels is splitting hairs then that there are so few "typical" coins
in many series and there are more judgement calls for preservation and originality. If it were truly too
fine a distinction then prices between adjacent grades wouldn't be so great. Collectors have been pay-
ing a great deal of attention to condition for a quarter century now and it has resulted in eleven divisions
of unc and the grading services to give a professional opinion for the more valuable coins.