After I bought this house I went up in the attic and found a nice pair of Bose speakers and some paintings. Never looked for coins though. I might have to go back up there and look.
Sounds like a difference between what is legal and what is ethical.
Is it legal to replace them and then take ownership after closing, probably yes. Is it ethical? I think if he had found them later, like prior to him flipping the house then you probably just keep them.
When I moved into my house, I found some stuff in the attic the prior owner forgot about (about $2k in small electronics). I returned them to him. 5 years later if I find something, it stays.
<< <i>Sounds like a difference between what is legal and what is ethical.
Is it legal to replace them and then take ownership after closing, probably yes. Is it ethical? I think if he had found them later, like prior to him flipping the house then you probably just keep them.
When I moved into my house, I found some stuff in the attic the prior owner forgot about (about $2k in small electronics). I returned them to him. 5 years later if I find something, it stays. >>
Suppose the house was 125 years old, and you found in the attic a rusted out coffee can containing some gold coins, all pre-1900. Since you cannot be sure that the previous owner is the the actual owner, would you tell them?
Man, that is pressure since the value has increased significantly.
I would probably ask a general misleading question about finding an old coffee can but not mention the contents and see what their response would be.
If they quickly remembered leaving something valuable behind then, yes I would return it. But if they shrugged it off, then I wouldn't say anything and become a collector of old gold coins.
This topic is so good, it would make a great scenario for graduate courses on ethics. Dave99B may even be an ethics professor doing research, disguised as an expert collector!
Really, though, I agree with the posts that say, keep it in perspective. There are so many things that money can't buy.
I'd either 1) say, here, did you know about these? and then watch for their response; it could really make someone's day, and that's what Visa calls "priceless". Pay it forward!
or 2) do what librtyhead suggested: "I would look at the coins,see if there was anything good,then offer the owners a fair deal"Text
Sure, if the buyer waits, then the coins are legally his. Due diligence and all that. But if the owner was aware of defects with the house, would the buyer want the owner to conceal them? So too the buyer should not keep the jars hidden.
Some time in the future, you'll meet with "the man upstairs". Or maybe not. Some people want to rip off widows and their families. You might want to consider how will your meeting with "the man upstairs" turn out? Personally, I don't think a convoluted explanation worthy of a Clinton lawyer is going to cut it with "the man upstairs".
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Update: The house closed, and I reviewed the "treasure". Pretty damn disappointing. Apparently my friend can’t distinguish silver dollars from half dollars?
Here's what he found:
Only 4 Silver dollars (Morgan), in Good/Very Good.
1898-0 1900-O 1921-D 1921-P
1 Eisenhower dollar
51 Walking Liberty halves (all late dates after 1938, in Good –Very Fine)
49 Franklin halves (all common dates, most VG – VF. Three AUs. 1 MS)
65 1964 Kennedy halves
42 40% silver Kennedy halves
Dave
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
<< <i>Some time in the future, you'll meet with "the man upstairs". Or maybe not. Some people want to rip off widows and their families. You might want to consider how will your meeting with "the man upstairs" turn out? Personally, I don't think a convoluted explanation worthy of a Clinton lawyer is going to cut it with "the man upstairs". >>
Screw "the man upstairs". I would have informed the seller simply because it's the right thing to do, and not for any fear of posthumous payback. I'm glad the scumsucker got a bucket of junk silver for his deception.
<<<So, your friend decided to keep the items secret until closing? I'm glad he found nothing good then>>> 1 Ike dollar....ROFLMAO...real old stash. Kharma. What goes around comes around. Had he told the homeowner, they might have been 93-S and the homeowner said 'You can have them." Who knows. Too bad you caught so many flames and had your intergity & ethics questioned. Thanks for the update.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
If the most recent coin in the hoard was struck later than the family purchased the house, I'd immediately tell them about the coins. If not, I'd wait until after the sale to discuss it with the family. If they knew about the coins, I'd return them. Otherwise, I'd keep them.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic. Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Next time I read an ethics question on this forum I will just throw some pearls into a pigpen. Is this the state of honesty among coin people? Shame on all of those who didn't answer 'correctly'. And Kudos for those displaying advanced traits. There is no "man upstairs", but there is a difference between right and wrong. I would not like to be stuck in a foxhole with the unethical members of the forum.
Never underestimate the depth of depravity that some humans can slither to...
A friend of mine has stashed collectibles in his attic. What if 40 years ago some guy stashed a roll of BU 89-cc dollars in his attic as well? He passed away without letting others in the family know about them. Those were struck before the home was built and preceded all the owners. They obviously were put there by the family and would still belong to the family. Oh yeah, current value of that roll in the $250K+ range.
Examine yourself. Ever open a car door and tick the car next to you? Do you wait for the owner to show up. Ever see on your reciept you were charged less that the price on the item? do you go back to the store to pay the extra money?
Yes, I did the car door thing at work the first time. A dinged a body panel on a POS car owned by a fellow employee. Though I was doing the right thing. The car was junk. Yet my insurance company paid him for a new panel and labor to install it......$450 back then. And of course he didn't spend that money since the car had so much other damage it was laughable.
I've given up money many times when I was undercharged. However on the flip side I know I've been over charged MANY more times than I even know about, esp at supermarkets where prices seem to change by the minute.
At the time the coins were found by the buyer, the buyer did not own the house or the land it sits on. As of that date the coins belonged to the seller.
To those of you who pointed out that the buyer was purchasing the house, that fact is irrelevant. I suspect that the contract of sale had a provision in it where the risk of loss to the property and the obligation to pay taxes and insurance and to maintain the property remained with the seller until the close of escrow and that these items became the responsibility of the buyer on the close of escrow.
If the buyer took the position that the house (and the coins located thereon) were his prior to the close of escrow, since he had a contract to buy the house, what would he have done if the house had burned down to the ground one week prior to close? Would he go forward and close escrow at the full contract price because (in his train of thought as to the coins) he had a contract to buy the house? Heck no. He would back out saying the risk of loss is on the seller and that the fire damage gives him the legal right to terminate the contract and his obligation to purchase same.
Since the coins turned out to be of little value, everyone can laugh and say no big deal. Well, this situation may never ripen into a legal dispute, but morally and ethically, the coins should have been given to the seller prior to the close. The seller may have been willing to give them away to the buyer or may have been willing to sell them at melt.
If the buyer chose to not disclose the discovery of the coins to the seller until after the close of escrow (or at all), that says alot about his character (or lack thereof). I am also glad the coins turned out to be not very valuable.
I've enjoyed reading the situational ethics on this thread... "what if the coins belonged to the previous owners"..."what if they were stashed there by someone else"..."what if...""..."what if...""..."what if...". The fact remains that the coins aren't the house flippers to begin with regardless of who legally owns them. What Dave99Bs' friend is morally obligated to do is tell the current owner of his find and maybe offer suggestions as to how to find out what they're worth. Who knows, "what if" the daughter is an aspiring numismatist.
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
<< <i>I've enjoyed reading the situational ethics on this thread... "what if the coins belonged to the previous owners"..."what if they were stashed there by someone else"..."what if...""..."what if...""..."what if...". The fact remains that the coins aren't the house flippers to begin with regardless of who legally owns them. What Dave99Bs' friend is morally obligated to do is tell the current owner of his find and maybe offer suggestions as to how to find out what they're worth. Who knows, "what if" the daughter is an aspiring numismatist. >>
People can "what if" till they are blue, but this is not "what if". It actually happened, right? So, the buyer was slimy and had greedy little dollar signs in his eyes.
The RIGHT thing to do would have been to inform the sellers when they were noticed. End of story. Anything else is slimy and not honest.
<< <i>Screw "the man upstairs". I would have informed the seller simply because it's the right thing to do, and not for any fear of posthumous payback. I'm glad the scumsucker got a bucket of junk silver for his deception. >>
Deity! Karma! Brimstone! Astral redemption!
Your friend was greedy, but it turned out to not really matter. It was still a lame thing to do.
<< <i>Update: The house closed, and I reviewed the "treasure". Pretty damn disappointing. Apparently my friend can’t distinguish silver dollars from half dollars?
<< <i>He should keep quiet about them, and also beat up the old lady and daughter after the close, to see if he can shake any more numismatic items out of them. >>
I listen to your voice like it was music, [ y o u ' r e ] the song I want to know.
I'd give you the world, just because...
Speak to me of loved ones, favorite places and things, loves lost and gained, tears shed for joy and sorrow, of when I see the sparkle in your eye ... and the blackness when the dream dies, of lovers, fools, adventurers and kings while I sip my wine and contemplate the Chi.
from my experience, people who deal in dogs, horses and marbles have a MUCH lower standard of ethics, a much lower expectation of themselves and others. Maybe I should hang around here and some of this higher standard will rub off. I was raised that way, but my parents died early in my life and i seem to have lost my way. This thread reminds me very much of my parents' ethics....
I can bet that the old lady could use the money more than he can, so I would let her know where they are, and if she would like to sell them, make a fair offer.
AJ
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
It's a shame they weren't worth a lot more. I still think your old friend should beat up the lady and steal any other numismatic items she may have stashed away.
I think it's naive that so many people don't think we should have a normal distribution of ethical positions on the board just like in real life. In fact, I'd say in real life between 70 and 90 percent of the finders would be keepers. Replies here have been much different. This is partly because many of the "keepers" didn't answer, many of the unsure responders failed to the ethical position, and many of the people who said "without a doubt give them back" would have a different opinion if it were them with the coins in their hands.
As for what would I do? I can't say until I actually am faced with the situation. but my guess is I would act based on how I felt about the seller, what I knew about the history of the house, and who I believed the coins likely belonged to. On an AS IS sale I could certainly justify keeping them if I was convinced I was buying the house from a shark--and by the time I was in escrow I would KNOW how far I could trust the guy. If I was buying it from an honest guy who had treated me right the coins would likely find a home with him. Perhaps some will say I'm making judgements that I'm not qualified to make.
As it was, there were not enough coins to pay for the appraisal.
Integrity is doing what's right when you know no one is watching and you could get away with doing what's not right. Seems this guy's [lack of] integrity is pretty clear. All for an extra $500 on a $250K house flip!
"From Time to Time the Tree of Liberty Must be Refreshed with the Blood of Patriots and of Tyrants"
<< <i>He shined his flashlight in, and noticed two small jars filled with silver dollars. He took a quick peek at them, and only saw that they were very worn “U.S. silver dollars”. He’s not a collector, so he couldn’t even tell me if they were Peace or Morgans, although he did see dates from the 1930’s. >>
Us silver dollars dated in the 1930s? Either he doesn't know a silver dollar or he found a counterfeiter's stash. Also small jars filled with silver dollars?
When I was little (in age) I watched my Great Uncle as he counted out a stack of $100 bills. He was doing this while sitting behind the wheel of his brand new Baby Blue 1956 Ford. I was "mezmerized" because I had never seen a $100 bill before and here were about twenty of them all at once...he counted it three times and had this puzzled look on his face. He told me he'd be right back and went right back into the bank. When he returned, I asked if there was something wrong and he said yeah, the teller gave me too much money! I learned a vauble lesson from this man that day...honesty is what you decide, you and you alone will to have to live with what ever decision is made.
In 1956, $100 was probably the bank tellers salary...they'd probably have to come up with the one hundred buck mistake or get canned. The consequences of your actions go way beyond what you can see at the present.
I was secretly hoping that the jars of coins were junk...and so they were.
<< <i>He shined his flashlight in, and noticed two small jars filled with silver dollars. He took a quick peek at them, and only saw that they were very worn “U.S. silver dollars”. He’s not a collector, so he couldn’t even tell me if they were Peace or Morgans, although he did see dates from the 1930’s. >>
Us silver dollars dated in the 1930s? Either he doesn't know a silver dollar or he found a counterfeiter's stash. >>
<< <i>He shined his flashlight in, and noticed two small jars filled with silver dollars. He took a quick peek at them, and only saw that they were very worn “U.S. silver dollars”. He’s not a collector, so he couldn’t even tell me if they were Peace or Morgans, although he did see dates from the 1930’s. >>
Us silver dollars dated in the 1930s? Either he doesn't know a silver dollar or he found a counterfeiter's stash. Also small jars filled with silver dollars? >>
Spoken like a true Morgan Dollar collector. Peace Dollars (1921-1935) would, however, still qualify for "dates from the 1930's".
Comments
<< <i>100 >>
dammit!! seconds away!
<< <i>
<< <i>100 >>
dammit!! seconds away!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>100 >>
dammit!! seconds away!
Is it legal to replace them and then take ownership after closing, probably yes. Is it ethical? I think if he had found them later, like prior to him flipping the house then you probably just keep them.
When I moved into my house, I found some stuff in the attic the prior owner forgot about (about $2k in small electronics). I returned them to him. 5 years later if I find something, it stays.
<< <i>Sounds like a difference between what is legal and what is ethical.
Is it legal to replace them and then take ownership after closing, probably yes. Is it ethical? I think if he had found them later, like prior to him flipping the house then you probably just keep them.
When I moved into my house, I found some stuff in the attic the prior owner forgot about (about $2k in small electronics). I returned them to him. 5 years later if I find something, it stays. >>
Suppose the house was 125 years old, and you found in the attic a rusted out coffee can containing some gold coins, all pre-1900. Since you cannot be sure that the previous owner is the the actual owner, would you tell them?
I would probably ask a general misleading question about finding an old coffee can but not mention the contents and see what their response would be.
If they quickly remembered leaving something valuable behind then, yes I would return it. But if they shrugged it off, then I wouldn't say anything and become a collector of old gold coins.
Really, though, I agree with the posts that say, keep it in perspective. There are so many things that money can't buy.
I'd either 1) say, here, did you know about these? and then watch for their response; it could really make someone's day, and that's what Visa calls "priceless". Pay it forward!
or 2) do what librtyhead suggested: "I would look at the coins,see if there was anything good,then offer the owners a fair deal"Text
Sure, if the buyer waits, then the coins are legally his. Due diligence and all that. But if the owner was aware of defects with the house, would the buyer want the owner to conceal them? So too the buyer should not keep the jars hidden.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Here's what he found:
Only 4 Silver dollars (Morgan), in Good/Very Good.
1898-0
1900-O
1921-D
1921-P
1 Eisenhower dollar
51 Walking Liberty halves (all late dates after 1938, in Good –Very Fine)
49 Franklin halves (all common dates, most VG – VF. Three AUs. 1 MS)
65 1964 Kennedy halves
42 40% silver Kennedy halves
Dave
I'm glad he found nothing good then.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>So, your friend decided to keep the items secret until closing?
I'm glad he found nothing good then. >>
Ditto.
<< <i>Some time in the future, you'll meet with "the man upstairs". Or maybe not. Some people want to rip off widows and their families. You might want to consider how will your meeting with "the man upstairs" turn out? Personally, I don't think a convoluted explanation worthy of a Clinton lawyer is going to cut it with "the man upstairs". >>
Screw "the man upstairs". I would have informed the seller simply because it's the right thing to do, and not for any fear of posthumous payback. I'm glad the scumsucker got a bucket of junk silver for his deception.
<< <i>So, your friend decided to keep the items secret until closing?
I'm glad he found nothing good then. >>
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
I'm glad he found nothing good then>>>
1 Ike dollar....ROFLMAO...real old stash.
Kharma. What goes around comes around. Had he told the homeowner, they might have been 93-S and the homeowner said 'You can have them." Who knows.
Too bad you caught so many flames and had your intergity & ethics questioned. Thanks for the update.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Understood, Dog. No problem, I understand I'm just the messenger.
At least no one has said I'll burn in H*E*L*L for touching them! (yet
Dave
<< <i>
<< <i>So, your friend decided to keep the items secret until closing?
I'm glad he found nothing good then. >>
Ditto. >>
Yea, verily.
I feel better already, and I had nothing to do with it!
Obscurum per obscurius
The whole friggin' deal. Much ado about squat.
Is this the state of honesty among coin people?
Shame on all of those who didn't answer 'correctly'. And Kudos for those displaying advanced traits.
There is no "man upstairs", but there is a difference between right and wrong.
I would not like to be stuck in a foxhole with the unethical members of the forum.
Never underestimate the depth of depravity that some humans can slither to...
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
Examine yourself. Ever open a car door and tick the car next to you? Do you wait for the owner to show up. Ever see on your reciept you were charged less that the price on the item? do you go back to the store to pay the extra money?
Yes, I did the car door thing at work the first time. A dinged a body panel on a POS car owned by a fellow employee. Though I was doing the right thing. The car was junk. Yet my insurance company paid him for a new panel and labor to install it......$450 back then.
And of course he didn't spend that money since the car had so much other damage it was laughable.
I've given up money many times when I was undercharged. However on the flip side I know I've been over charged MANY more times than I even know about, esp at supermarkets where prices seem to change by the minute.
roadrunner
At the time the coins were found by the buyer, the buyer did not own the house or the land it sits on. As of that date the coins belonged to the seller.
To those of you who pointed out that the buyer was purchasing the house, that fact is irrelevant. I suspect that the contract of sale had a provision in it where the risk of loss to the property and the obligation to pay taxes and insurance and to maintain the property remained with the seller until the close of escrow and that these items became the responsibility of the buyer on the close of escrow.
If the buyer took the position that the house (and the coins located thereon) were his prior to the close of escrow, since he had a contract to buy the house, what would he have done if the house had burned down to the ground one week prior to close? Would he go forward and close escrow at the full contract price because (in his train of thought as to the coins) he had a contract to buy the house? Heck no. He would back out saying the risk of loss is on the seller and that the fire damage gives him the legal right to terminate the contract and his obligation to purchase same.
Since the coins turned out to be of little value, everyone can laugh and say no big deal. Well, this situation may never ripen into a legal dispute, but morally and ethically, the coins should have been given to the seller prior to the close. The seller may have been willing to give them away to the buyer or may have been willing to sell them at melt.
If the buyer chose to not disclose the discovery of the coins to the seller until after the close of escrow (or at all), that says alot about his character (or lack thereof). I am also glad the coins turned out to be not very valuable.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
<< <i>I've enjoyed reading the situational ethics on this thread... "what if the coins belonged to the previous owners"..."what if they were stashed there by someone else"..."what if...""..."what if...""..."what if...". The fact remains that the coins aren't the house flippers to begin with regardless of who legally owns them. What Dave99Bs' friend is morally obligated to do is tell the current owner of his find and maybe offer suggestions as to how to find out what they're worth. Who knows, "what if" the daughter is an aspiring numismatist.
People can "what if" till they are blue, but this is not "what if". It actually happened, right?
So, the buyer was slimy and had greedy little dollar signs in his eyes.
The RIGHT thing to do would have been to inform the sellers when they were noticed. End of story.
Anything else is slimy and not honest.
I hope he takes a loss on the flip.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Screw "the man upstairs". I would have informed the seller simply because it's the right thing to do, and not for any fear of posthumous payback. I'm glad the scumsucker got a bucket of junk silver for his deception. >>
Deity! Karma! Brimstone! Astral redemption!
Your friend was greedy, but it turned out to not really matter. It was still a lame thing to do.
<< <i>Update: The house closed, and I reviewed the "treasure". Pretty damn disappointing. Apparently my friend can’t distinguish silver dollars from half dollars?
Here's what he found: >>
BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
<< <i>He should keep quiet about them, and also beat up the old lady and daughter after the close, to see if he can shake any more numismatic items out of them. >>
I'd give you the world, just because...
Speak to me of loved ones, favorite places and things, loves lost and gained, tears shed for joy and sorrow, of when I see the sparkle in your eye ...
and the blackness when the dream dies, of lovers, fools, adventurers and kings while I sip my wine and contemplate the Chi.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>So, your friend decided to keep the items secret until closing?
I'm glad he found nothing good then. >>
1969s WCLR-001 counterclash
AJ
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
As for what would I do? I can't say until I actually am faced with the situation. but my guess is I would act based on how I felt about the seller, what I knew about the history of the house, and who I believed the coins likely belonged to. On an AS IS sale I could certainly justify keeping them if I was convinced I was buying the house from a shark--and by the time I was in escrow I would KNOW how far I could trust the guy. If I was buying it from an honest guy who had treated me right the coins would likely find a home with him. Perhaps some will say I'm making judgements that I'm not qualified to make.
As it was, there were not enough coins to pay for the appraisal.
Cheers,
Jerry
--Thomas Jefferson
<< <i>he can still redeem himself by returning them >>
Really?
I think smoe here might disagree......
<< <i>He shined his flashlight in, and noticed two small jars filled with silver dollars. He took a quick peek at them, and only saw that they were very worn “U.S. silver dollars”. He’s not a collector, so he couldn’t even tell me if they were Peace or Morgans, although he did see dates from the 1930’s. >>
Us silver dollars dated in the 1930s? Either he doesn't know a silver dollar or he found a counterfeiter's stash. Also small jars filled with silver dollars?
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
In 1956, $100 was probably the bank tellers salary...they'd probably have to come up with the one hundred buck mistake or get canned. The consequences of your actions go way beyond what you can see at the present.
I was secretly hoping that the jars of coins were junk...and so they were.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>I was secretly hoping that the jars of coins were junk...and so they were. >>
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>
<< <i>He shined his flashlight in, and noticed two small jars filled with silver dollars. He took a quick peek at them, and only saw that they were very worn “U.S. silver dollars”. He’s not a collector, so he couldn’t even tell me if they were Peace or Morgans, although he did see dates from the 1930’s. >>
Us silver dollars dated in the 1930s? Either he doesn't know a silver dollar or he found a counterfeiter's stash. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>He shined his flashlight in, and noticed two small jars filled with silver dollars. He took a quick peek at them, and only saw that they were very worn “U.S. silver dollars”. He’s not a collector, so he couldn’t even tell me if they were Peace or Morgans, although he did see dates from the 1930’s. >>
Us silver dollars dated in the 1930s? Either he doesn't know a silver dollar or he found a counterfeiter's stash. Also small jars filled with silver dollars? >>
Spoken like a true Morgan Dollar collector.