House flipper finds coins - what would you do? **UPDATE**

Dave99B

A good friend of mine, who knows I'm a serious collector, called me tonight. He's a self employed full time house flipper. He just made an offer on a $700K “fixer”, which he expects to be able to turn over in 4 to 5 months for $950K+. Anyway, his offer was accepted yesterday.

Today, he returned to the property to perform another walk through, so he could plan the exact improvements, and get needed materials on order. He wants to be ready to go once it closes. Anyway, during the walk through, he looked into a crawlspace under the basement steps, and noticed a small hiding place he had not noticed before.

He shined his flashlight in, and noticed two small jars filled with silver dollars. He took a quick peek at them, and only saw that they were very worn “U.S. silver dollars”. He’s not a collector, so he couldn’t even tell me if they were Peace or Morgans, although he did see dates from the 1930’s. He thinks there were roughly 100 to 150 coins in all. He of course left the jars of coins in the hiding space, as it is not his property (at least just yet).

The bottom line is now he’s wondering what to do. The place closes in two weeks, and is being sold by the daughter of a 93 yr old woman who lived there many years. We surmise the coins were hidden there by her, or her late husband, many years ago, and are now long forgotten.

Except for some trash and broken down furniture, the house is vacant, and being sold as-is (needs a lot of work). We doubt nobody is aware of the stash of silver.

In two weeks, the coins will be his, along with and other odds and ends in the house, unless someone comes and picks them up (unlikely). But the real question is what’s the right thing to do now? Notify the sellers? Keep quiet?

I think I know what the right thing to do would be.

What are your thoughts?

Dave

fullerfun4

Of course, the right thing to do would be to inform the seller about the coins. But it may be possible that the seller's relative was not the original resident and, perhaps, the coins may have been left by the original owner. So then will the seller "do the right thing" and admit that the coins were not their's? Who knows, but your friend's conscience should be his guide.
All I know is if I had stashed some coins long ago and forgot, I sure would appreciate it if I was given the chance to recover them.
Regards
Gary

AmericanCopper

And if the 93 year old woman was your mother, what would you do? (or want someone else to do.) Regardless, ethical behavior is all that keeps us from being savages.

Dog97

They came with the property so they are his. IMO

mach19

<< <i>And if the 93 year old woman was your mother, what would you do? (or want someone else to do.) Regardless, ethical behavior is all that keeps us from being savages. >>

ditto

PerryHall

<< <i>They came with the property so they are his. IMO >>

Murphy

Take the money and run.

TwoSides2aCoin

He's a house flipper ? Is the value of the house pertinent information here ?
So he's gonna make a quarter million on flipping the house.

He could be losing out on his salvation with them stupid coins.
Take Judas Iscariot for example.

If you want a moral stance, there ya have it. He gave up eternal salvation for a few pieces of silver then hung himself because of his own guilt (I'm surmising).

I personally do not find this to be a moral or ethical issue, Dave.
I've lived in my house for 14 yrs. It was built in 1929.
I found a license to hunt and fish from 1919 and sold it for $45. Am I bad or should I have tracked down the decendents of the guy who's name was on the license and bought them a fish sandwich at McDonalds ?

The thing to do is cherrypick them and send the good ones in to PCGS.... anything short of that is a sin.
If they come back as bodybags, give them to the daughter of the 93 yr old and tell her they're junk.


Tell your friend that for a quarter of a million dollar flip...he ought to give the coins to the daughter and buy his own.

friend

This is a tough one. My first thought was give them to the daughter, then I thought what if they were not her parents coins to begin with then they would belong to the "buyer/owner" who came across them. The property is still hers and in most cases unless someone isn't motivated by materialistic possessions they will say, mine, mine, mine. We do not know when we will be taken out of this world, but I would think that who ever was storing those coins and if they wanted to leave them to someone they would have put them in a Safe Deposit Box or would have left them in a Will. Yes, they could have forgotten about them, but that is only if they owned them in the first place. As it stands right now it appears to be only a matter of $100-$150, but they could be of more value after a coin expert takes a look at them. The house closes in two weeks, I would have the coins appraised within the next week if not sooner to get a possible true value then your friend has a better idea of what he has discoverd, not the value should make a difference, but it can. Then it comes down to legal and or moral issue. If he had found the coins after closing while doing the renovation would he feel or be responsible for telling the daughter about the coins? Just my thoughts.

morgansforever

Maybe it's a jar of circulated 93-S's. At $4500 for a VF35, that would be a nice find.

291fifth

About 1978 one of my great uncles died. His wife had died a few years before. The house was sold. Several months later, the buyer of the house contacted the seller of the house, their son, and turned over an amount of cash to him. It had been hidden under the carpeting on the stairs. Like so many people who had lived thru the depression of the 1930's, they never really trusted banks. The 93 year old woman in your story is probably much the same.

He should inform the house seller of his find immediately.

Dentuck

<< <i>The house closes in two weeks, I would have the coins appraised within the next week if not sooner ... >>



Wouldn't he have to steal them first? Should he break into the house at night and steal them all at once, or stage several more "walk-throughs" and steal 40-50 at a time?

friend

I would not take coins out of the house, I would bring someone to the house who could give some idea on what they are worth.

Steve27

"I think I know what the right thing to do would be."

He does not own the house, the coins are the property of the current owner, and he should mention them to her.

Derek2100

Its his stuff now

pontiacinf

<< <i>"I think I know what the right thing to do would be."

He does not own the house, the coins are the property of the current owner, and he should mention them to her. >>



well said steve

TAClough

If he found the coins after the sale went through, they are his.

If he finds the items before the sale is finial, isn't it "Lost or mis-laid Property"?

DNADave

So thats where I left my jar of coins! Just PM me for where to send them.

Really, I once found a jar of coins in an old house, they ended up being a pile of wheat cents and one war nickel. IMO, the jar has a new owner and this item is no different than the other items left in the house.

fishcooker

A friend of ours moved into a house and as we hauled stuff in someone found a stash of pot.

The previous owner was the cousin of the policeman who came out!

Outhaul

I've heard of cow tipping, but HOUSE flipping?



At any rate, Steve voiced the first thing that came to my mind.

Cheers,

Bob

Hyperion

<< <i>

<< <i>They came with the property so they are his. IMO >>

>>



not his house until after the close.

tough call, I like to think Id tell the owner of the presence of the coins, just to have that warm glow of "I did the right thing", but I can understand if he doesn't say anything and confirms the presence of the coins after the closing and the title changes hands.

Id grit my teeth and tell the owner/daughter

slipgate

Say nothing and take take the coins after the sale.

Hyperion

<< <i>Say nothing and take take the coins after the sale. >>



I thought about this, technically they haven't had a chance to completely clean out the house. he might not say anything, and after the close those coins and everything else would be gone. especially if there's some other object that needs to be thrown out near the coins.

arlea1957

Tough question.... in theory they have gone through the house and removed what they wanted and sounds like they are leaving junk behind for clean out. The new owner of course has no obligation to tell the current owners so it comes down to a matter of conscience. I did a major clean out a couple of years ago and removed 3 dumpsters worth of junk but did manage to find some good stuff also and informed the new owner of the house that there was some stuff we could make money off of. I was told to sell it and take it as a bonus! In this case I would probably stay quite until I could at least look at them and determine a value of the coins. Who knows the current owners may take them to a dealer and get face. If there was some value in the coins I would then discuss it with the ex owners and proceed from there. Who knows maybe both could be winners in this case.

Barndog

there is only one choice, and that is "do the right thing"

Would a home purchaser be happy to find a nightmare (e.g. termites) -- that were not noticed during inspection -- after purchase?

Connecticoin

He does not own the house yet so he needs to give the coins to the current owner. Even if he found them after closing, the right thing to do would be to return them.

Also, legally, don't lost items need to be returned to (or attempted to be returned to) their rightful owner anyway? (attorneys what do you say)? What if the prior owner lost a $5,000 wedding ring? Would the new owner of the house get to say "finders keepers" in that situation as well?

agentjim007

150 silver dollars (lets face it 99.99% common circ. he saw coins from the 30's) is worth maybe $1500.00 / $2000.00 at most on a $750,000.00 home BIG DEAL. The daughter is already cutting the fat calf (she paid zero). He buys the house the contents are his.

291fifth

Many of the replies I see to this post are what I would expect from coin collectors. Very low ethical standards are evident.

PerryHall

If the coins are returned to the current owner, what are the chances that she will seek out the previous owner of the house to get the coins back to their rightful owners? Less than zero?

agentjim007

The more I think about it I think I would say something.

13PacesEast

nice rip !!!

now AT them suckers and bleed the sheep for as much money as possible.

smiles72

The guy should tell the owner.

End of story.

No debate needed.

The fact he found them before he takes ownership is the dividing line.

If he goes through them and discovers something of numismatic value, I am sure the owner will give him a great deal on them.

robertpr

When you're looking through the house do you wonder to yourself whether you should point out that couch sitting in the living room? I would assume the owner knows about all of their property in the house and if they leave anything behind, it's yours to do with as you please.

Coin Finder

The bottom line is now he’s wondering what to do. The place closes in two weeks, and is being sold by the daughter of a 93 yr old woman who lived there many years. We surmise the coins were hidden there by her, or her late husband, many years ago, and are now long forgotten.

I would tell the current sellers about the find. If after I owned the house I found more, then I would keep these. I should think the 93 year old woman or the daughter would like a keep sake as a memory from the house , so I would expect that they would want them and I would gladly give them back.

DrPerry

Why the question ???

There is only one thing to do.

THEY'RE NOT HIS HE SHOULD TELL THE OWNER OF THE HOUSE WHERE THEY ARE.

Connecticoin

<< <i>When you're looking through the house do you wonder to yourself whether you should point out that couch sitting in the living room? I would assume the owner knows about all of their property in the house and if they leave anything behind, it's yours to do with as you please. >>



If it is not specified in the sales agreement who gets the couch, then it I would think it could be debated as to who owns it. Sames goes with stuff attached to the house such as drapes and shades, etc -- you need to specify what is included with the house to cover yourself if you are the buyer.

Connecticoin

I wonder what "Derek2100" would do?

13PacesEast

<< <i>I wonder what "Derek2100" would do? >>




what would brian boitano do?

291fifth

<< <i>Very low ethical standards are evident

Examine yourself. Ever open a car door and tick the car next to you? Do you wait for the owner to show up. Ever see on your reciept you were charged less that the price on the item? do you go back to the store to pay the extra money? There are plenty of time you have not held yourself to your own standards you claim here. It's not just because there coins. He owns All contents. >>



A very odd attempt at justification.

keoj

This is a no brainer....the correct thing to do is to inform the current owner.

keoj

ziggy29

I'd ask the current owner if they could remember stashing anything of value away in a hiding place. The idea would be to see if I could "guide" them toward the coins and the location without disclosing it. If they could do that, I'd be convinced the coins were their property and were placed there by the seller or their family, and I'd consider it theirs and give it to them.

If they had no clue, I'd probably keep them.

Ricke

This question should be very easy to answer...

I find it surprising that some folks came down off their AT high horses long enough to explain how it's ok to keep your mouth shut in hopes of taking advantage of people.

dthigpen

Legally, he's 100% in the clear to leave them where they are and allow them to become his with the close of Escrow. The exception would be if the home is/was previously tenant occupied in the immediate past rather than owner occupied, then it would depend on the state they were in. I'm willing to bet a hundie that the current owner did not place them there, in which case it's his/her own stupidity that got them into the situation for not doing a more complete due dilligence inspection prior to going on contract.

dthigpen

Here's a nice one for everyone who believes that due dilligence reporting is the responsibility of the buyer in such a situation.

If you purchased a book in a used bookstore and while flipping through it had a hundred dollar bill fall out of it, would you return the hundred dollar bill?

dthigpen

<< <i>

<< <i>When you're looking through the house do you wonder to yourself whether you should point out that couch sitting in the living room? I would assume the owner knows about all of their property in the house and if they leave anything behind, it's yours to do with as you please. >>



If it is not specified in the sales agreement who gets the couch, then it I would think it could be debated as to who owns it. Sames goes with stuff attached to the house such as drapes and shades, etc -- you need to specify what is included with the house to cover yourself if you are the buyer. >>



Incorrect. This may very by state, but generally if a former owner abandons property in the home after escrow is closed and you own that home, unless they were a tenant and not a owner, then it does belong to the new owner of the house. Now, on the other hand, you are partially right. She has until close of escrow to remove goods from the home that are not specifically denoted in the sales agreement, or to make an arrangement with the new buyer otherwise.

ziggy29

<< <i>If you purchased a book in a used bookstore and while flipping through it had a hundred dollar bill fall out of it, would you return the hundred dollar bill? >>

I think the situations seem morally equivalent at first glance. But this changes when you have a reasonable chance of locating the original rightful owner as compared to a situation where you have little or no chance of locating them.

For example, if I found a random $20 bill on the ground, with nothing else around it, I probably pocket it since there's virtually zero chance of finding the person who lost it. However, if that $20 was in a wallet that had the ID of the person who owned it, I'd give it back.

Same applies here, though we're talking about property "found" with a purchase of something containing it. If it's not something likely to be considered "part of the property being knowingly transferred" it's similar to finding it on the street (in my opinion). So the acid test becomes: Do I have a reasonable chance of locating the original, rightful owners of the property I found? When buying a home, one might reasonably expect to find the possible owners -- the people who sold it to you.

291fifth

<< <i>Here's a nice one for everyone who believes that due dilligence reporting is the responsibility of the buyer in such a situation.

If you purchased a book in a used bookstore and while flipping through it had a hundred dollar bill fall out of it, would you return the hundred dollar bill? >>



The issue here is not a matter of legal justification. It is a matter of personal ethics.

So far as the hundred dollar bill in the book goes...what series was it?

AuldFartte

He should remove them from thier hiding place and present them to the homeowner. Any other action, or inaction, would be completely unethical, IMO.

originalisbest

He should keep quiet about them, and also beat up the old lady and daughter after the close, to see if he can shake any more numismatic items out of them.

bushmaster8

What would ManofCoins do??

Leiana

I would tell the owner, myself.

-Amanda