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House flipper finds coins - what would you do? **UPDATE**
Dave99B
Posts: 8,957 ✭✭✭✭✭
A good friend of mine, who knows I'm a serious collector, called me tonight. He's a self employed full time house flipper. He just made an offer on a $700K “fixer”, which he expects to be able to turn over in 4 to 5 months for $950K+. Anyway, his offer was accepted yesterday.
Today, he returned to the property to perform another walk through, so he could plan the exact improvements, and get needed materials on order. He wants to be ready to go once it closes. Anyway, during the walk through, he looked into a crawlspace under the basement steps, and noticed a small hiding place he had not noticed before.
He shined his flashlight in, and noticed two small jars filled with silver dollars. He took a quick peek at them, and only saw that they were very worn “U.S. silver dollars”. He’s not a collector, so he couldn’t even tell me if they were Peace or Morgans, although he did see dates from the 1930’s. He thinks there were roughly 100 to 150 coins in all. He of course left the jars of coins in the hiding space, as it is not his property (at least just yet).
The bottom line is now he’s wondering what to do. The place closes in two weeks, and is being sold by the daughter of a 93 yr old woman who lived there many years. We surmise the coins were hidden there by her, or her late husband, many years ago, and are now long forgotten.
Except for some trash and broken down furniture, the house is vacant, and being sold as-is (needs a lot of work). We doubt nobody is aware of the stash of silver.
In two weeks, the coins will be his, along with and other odds and ends in the house, unless someone comes and picks them up (unlikely). But the real question is what’s the right thing to do now? Notify the sellers? Keep quiet?
I think I know what the right thing to do would be.
What are your thoughts?
Dave
Today, he returned to the property to perform another walk through, so he could plan the exact improvements, and get needed materials on order. He wants to be ready to go once it closes. Anyway, during the walk through, he looked into a crawlspace under the basement steps, and noticed a small hiding place he had not noticed before.
He shined his flashlight in, and noticed two small jars filled with silver dollars. He took a quick peek at them, and only saw that they were very worn “U.S. silver dollars”. He’s not a collector, so he couldn’t even tell me if they were Peace or Morgans, although he did see dates from the 1930’s. He thinks there were roughly 100 to 150 coins in all. He of course left the jars of coins in the hiding space, as it is not his property (at least just yet).
The bottom line is now he’s wondering what to do. The place closes in two weeks, and is being sold by the daughter of a 93 yr old woman who lived there many years. We surmise the coins were hidden there by her, or her late husband, many years ago, and are now long forgotten.
Except for some trash and broken down furniture, the house is vacant, and being sold as-is (needs a lot of work). We doubt nobody is aware of the stash of silver.
In two weeks, the coins will be his, along with and other odds and ends in the house, unless someone comes and picks them up (unlikely). But the real question is what’s the right thing to do now? Notify the sellers? Keep quiet?
I think I know what the right thing to do would be.
What are your thoughts?
Dave
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
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All I know is if I had stashed some coins long ago and forgot, I sure would appreciate it if I was given the chance to recover them.
Regards
Gary
<< <i>And if the 93 year old woman was your mother, what would you do? (or want someone else to do.) Regardless, ethical behavior is all that keeps us from being savages. >>
ditto
<< <i>They came with the property so they are his. IMO >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
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So he's gonna make a quarter million on flipping the house.
He could be losing out on his salvation with them stupid coins.
Take Judas Iscariot for example.
If you want a moral stance, there ya have it. He gave up eternal salvation for a few pieces of silver then hung himself because of his own guilt (I'm surmising).
I personally do not find this to be a moral or ethical issue, Dave.
I've lived in my house for 14 yrs. It was built in 1929.
I found a license to hunt and fish from 1919 and sold it for $45. Am I bad or should I have tracked down the decendents of the guy who's name was on the license and bought them a fish sandwich at McDonalds ?
The thing to do is cherrypick them and send the good ones in to PCGS.... anything short of that is a sin.
If they come back as bodybags, give them to the daughter of the 93 yr old and tell her they're junk.
Tell your friend that for a quarter of a million dollar flip...he ought to give the coins to the daughter and buy his own.
Practice makes perfect & nobody is perfect. So, practice being nobody and be perfect !
He should inform the house seller of his find immediately.
<< <i>The house closes in two weeks, I would have the coins appraised within the next week if not sooner ... >>
Wouldn't he have to steal them first? Should he break into the house at night and steal them all at once, or stage several more "walk-throughs" and steal 40-50 at a time?
He does not own the house, the coins are the property of the current owner, and he should mention them to her.
<< <i>"I think I know what the right thing to do would be."
He does not own the house, the coins are the property of the current owner, and he should mention them to her. >>
well said steve
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
If he finds the items before the sale is finial, isn't it "Lost or mis-laid Property"?
Really, I once found a jar of coins in an old house, they ended up being a pile of wheat cents and one war nickel. IMO, the jar has a new owner and this item is no different than the other items left in the house.
A friend of ours moved into a house and as we hauled stuff in someone found a stash of pot.
The previous owner was the cousin of the policeman who came out!
At any rate, Steve voiced the first thing that came to my mind.
Cheers,
Bob
<< <i>
<< <i>They came with the property so they are his. IMO >>
not his house until after the close.
tough call, I like to think Id tell the owner of the presence of the coins, just to have that warm glow of "I did the right thing", but I can understand if he doesn't say anything and confirms the presence of the coins after the closing and the title changes hands.
Id grit my teeth and tell the owner/daughter
<< <i>Say nothing and take take the coins after the sale. >>
I thought about this, technically they haven't had a chance to completely clean out the house. he might not say anything, and after the close those coins and everything else would be gone. especially if there's some other object that needs to be thrown out near the coins.
Would a home purchaser be happy to find a nightmare (e.g. termites) -- that were not noticed during inspection -- after purchase?
Also, legally, don't lost items need to be returned to (or attempted to be returned to) their rightful owner anyway? (attorneys what do you say)? What if the prior owner lost a $5,000 wedding ring? Would the new owner of the house get to say "finders keepers" in that situation as well?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
now AT them suckers and bleed the sheep for as much money as possible.
hi, i'm tom.
i do not doctor coins like some who post in here.
End of story.
No debate needed.
The fact he found them before he takes ownership is the dividing line.
If he goes through them and discovers something of numismatic value, I am sure the owner will give him a great deal on them.
I would tell the current sellers about the find. If after I owned the house I found more, then I would keep these. I should think the 93 year old woman or the daughter would like a keep sake as a memory from the house , so I would expect that they would want them and I would gladly give them back.
The court jester does not play, but gently pulls the strings…
There is only one thing to do.
THEY'RE NOT HIS HE SHOULD TELL THE OWNER OF THE HOUSE WHERE THEY ARE.
<< <i>When you're looking through the house do you wonder to yourself whether you should point out that couch sitting in the living room? I would assume the owner knows about all of their property in the house and if they leave anything behind, it's yours to do with as you please. >>
If it is not specified in the sales agreement who gets the couch, then it I would think it could be debated as to who owns it. Sames goes with stuff attached to the house such as drapes and shades, etc -- you need to specify what is included with the house to cover yourself if you are the buyer.
<< <i>I wonder what "Derek2100" would do?
what would brian boitano do?
hi, i'm tom.
i do not doctor coins like some who post in here.
<< <i>Very low ethical standards are evident
Examine yourself. Ever open a car door and tick the car next to you? Do you wait for the owner to show up. Ever see on your reciept you were charged less that the price on the item? do you go back to the store to pay the extra money? There are plenty of time you have not held yourself to your own standards you claim here. It's not just because there coins. He owns All contents. >>
A very odd attempt at justification.
keoj
If they had no clue, I'd probably keep them.
This question should be very easy to answer...
I find it surprising that some folks came down off their AT high horses long enough to explain how it's ok to keep your mouth shut in hopes of taking advantage of people.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
If you purchased a book in a used bookstore and while flipping through it had a hundred dollar bill fall out of it, would you return the hundred dollar bill?
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
<< <i>
<< <i>When you're looking through the house do you wonder to yourself whether you should point out that couch sitting in the living room? I would assume the owner knows about all of their property in the house and if they leave anything behind, it's yours to do with as you please. >>
If it is not specified in the sales agreement who gets the couch, then it I would think it could be debated as to who owns it. Sames goes with stuff attached to the house such as drapes and shades, etc -- you need to specify what is included with the house to cover yourself if you are the buyer. >>
Incorrect. This may very by state, but generally if a former owner abandons property in the home after escrow is closed and you own that home, unless they were a tenant and not a owner, then it does belong to the new owner of the house. Now, on the other hand, you are partially right. She has until close of escrow to remove goods from the home that are not specifically denoted in the sales agreement, or to make an arrangement with the new buyer otherwise.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
<< <i>If you purchased a book in a used bookstore and while flipping through it had a hundred dollar bill fall out of it, would you return the hundred dollar bill? >>
I think the situations seem morally equivalent at first glance. But this changes when you have a reasonable chance of locating the original rightful owner as compared to a situation where you have little or no chance of locating them.
For example, if I found a random $20 bill on the ground, with nothing else around it, I probably pocket it since there's virtually zero chance of finding the person who lost it. However, if that $20 was in a wallet that had the ID of the person who owned it, I'd give it back.
Same applies here, though we're talking about property "found" with a purchase of something containing it. If it's not something likely to be considered "part of the property being knowingly transferred" it's similar to finding it on the street (in my opinion). So the acid test becomes: Do I have a reasonable chance of locating the original, rightful owners of the property I found? When buying a home, one might reasonably expect to find the possible owners -- the people who sold it to you.
<< <i>Here's a nice one for everyone who believes that due dilligence reporting is the responsibility of the buyer in such a situation.
If you purchased a book in a used bookstore and while flipping through it had a hundred dollar bill fall out of it, would you return the hundred dollar bill? >>
The issue here is not a matter of legal justification. It is a matter of personal ethics.
So far as the hundred dollar bill in the book goes...what series was it?
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Tom, formerly in Albuquerque, NM.
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