Draped Bust large cent question

sumnom · September 7, 2006 9:31AM

Are there any examples of a 1797 cent with type 2 hair?

sumnom · September 8, 2006 12:32AM

Anybody?

Leiana · September 8, 2006 12:37AM

Redbook says nay...

1798 was the transitional period.

Type 2 hair is called "Head of 1799."

-Amanda

sumnom · September 8, 2006 12:40AM

Yes, I read the Red Book entry as well. I have a very worn 1790-something cent. It really looks like a 1797 but it is clearly type-2 hair. It must be a '98 or a '99. Given the rarity of the '99, it is most likely a '98. With a very worn date, are there any diagnostics I might use to figure out for sure?

Leiana · September 8, 2006 12:45AM

Um, maybe, but I'm no expert. Have you any means to post pictures of it?

-Amanda

sumnom · September 8, 2006 12:46AM

I have tried taking pics but so far none of feeble images have been able to bring out the shadow of the date that remains. I will try again though.

1798CentCollector · September 8, 2006 1:18AM

Type II hair style with the extra curl was introduced in 1798 beginning with the S-165 variety. all 1797s were type I hairstyle

sumnom · September 8, 2006 1:52AM

I guess I am just going to have to accept that this is a 1798.

1798Collector, what do you find particularly alluring about the 1798?

1798CentCollector · September 8, 2006 3:42AM

love the bust early dates. 1798 offers enough variieties (44 plus 2 NCs) and interesting examples (Style one and two hair and some nice overdates, diffferent reverses and neat die states) to make it fun. The 96's are tough to ifind n decent condition find and very expensive The later dates don't offer as many varieties and die states.

Here's an S-174 for your enjoyment.

Conder101 · September 8, 2006 6:29PM

Yeah, but where can I find a really low grade ugly S-144 that I can afford?

sumnom · September 9, 2006 2:43AM

That's beautiful, 1798 collector. Is that yours?

1798CentCollector · September 9, 2006 3:43AM

Yep the S-174 is mine. I grade it out at a 45 net 40. Although they say you add 5 points for ownership. Arguably might grade out at 40 net 35. Actually it is a newly discovered example not already in the Condition Census For a S-174 a pretty nice one IMO as suprisingly many of these , even in high grades, are not particularily attractive - color wise.

Condor 101, I thought you might already have an S-144. I know a good 5 net 5 example on the market that can be had for a mere $8,500 I am holding up hope that I find a 60 coin unattributed

Conder101 · September 9, 2006 3:56AM

Nope, the S-144 is the only S numbered 1798 I don't have. "Only" $8,500 you say. Right. I'm hoping someday to cherrypick one too. Only way I'll be able to afford one. What is annoying is an aquaintance of mine DID cherry one, and used a PIRATED copy of an attribution guide I wrote for low grade Draped Busts to do it.

1798CentCollector · September 9, 2006 5:28AM

You are doing well...... only missing the S-144. Let's just say I'm a very distant ways back. I'm hoping to Cherrypick the S-144; S-180; and S-149. Oh... and both NCs too !!! Probably won't, but it's fun dreaming. Did actually miss out on an S-144 on ebay about 1 1/2 years ago. That's a bummer about your friend cherrypicking one using your guide - the good news is that you obviously wrote an very effective attribution guide !! Did you happen to write one that was published in Penny-Wise several years ago by any chance, or was this one for strictly personal use??

Conder101 · September 9, 2006 3:46PM

I purchased my S-149 attributed but I did cherypick my S-180. The guide was sold in Peny-Wise back in late 1985 but was not printed in the journal. I stil use it some but to a large extent I've switched to an even easier to use version that a wrote a couple years later. That one has never been offered.

sumnom · September 21, 2006 12:14PM

I have come to the conclusion that I am in possession of a very well used S-170. Just in case you all are interested...

1798CentCollector · September 21, 2006 1:54PM

So what tipped you in that direction? Left obv field arc crack, curved date? other?

RichieURich · September 22, 2006 1:34AM

My favorite 1798 cent is the S-178, because it's got so much happening: head of 1799, reverse of 1796 (type of 1795) with a vertical die crack in front of the face running from upper to lower rim, eventually in a late die state with a die crack through the date. But so far I haven't located a decent one at the same time I had the money for it.

1798CentCollector · September 22, 2006 2:50AM

Yup, The S-178 is a very diificult one to find nice and in a decent grade. Almost always seen with rough dark planchets and low grade. Good luck with that search. I came accros a choice S-177 in July. A G6, but a choice coin with no distractions and smooth medium brown surfaces. Would have like a higher grade - but finding a nice one even in average condition would be a challenge.

sumnom · September 22, 2006 5:57PM

My example is so worn that I cannot see any die cracks. Sheldon suggests that it is not unusual for 170 to lack die cracks. While I am not 100% on this because of the poor condition of the coin, I decided upon 170 because of the position of the date in relation to the rim, the position of the 1 in relation to the hair curl, the sizing and spacing of LIBERTY, short fraction bar, and the position of the C in "cent." I am pretty confident about the "U" reverse designation but I am not enirely sure about the obverse since the condition is so bad. Given the U reverse, I can at least narrow down the choices to 169, 170, or 171.

sumnom · September 22, 2006 6:45PM

Here are some images. I wish they were better quality:

sumnom · September 22, 2006 6:50PM

What is going on with the pitting to the left of the bust? Is it some sort of die issue or is it post-mint damage?

sumnom · September 22, 2006 6:57PM

Also, any opinions on the N in CENT?

sumnom · September 23, 2006 1:28AM

TTT for those who like mysteries.

1798CentCollector · September 23, 2006 4:57AM

Pitting looks to be enviromental damage with the coin. If the dies were pitted the coin would exhibit raised bumps. I don't think you have an S-171 due to the positioning of the T in LIBERTY in front of the juncture of the hair and forehead. The fraction on the reverse appears to be consistent with the 3 varieties you mention. I don't my reference handy, and cannot confirm the leaning of N in cent as a characteristic of one of these reverses. LIBERTY in the S-169 is high and close to the border, which it appears to be in your example.

sumnom · September 23, 2006 2:13PM

Thank you, 1798.

Sheldon doesn't mention the impaired N in his description of the U reverse. Right now Sheldon is the only reference to which I have access. I thought it was pretty cool that I could get it out of my library!

Hoot · September 24, 2006 12:34PM

Hi Sumnom - Sorry I've been gone since you made this post. Taking a close look at the reverse of your coin makes the reverse variety very clear - it's the EE reverse of the S-182, 183, and 184. What gives it away readily is the short die gouge that connects the right ribbon with the middle of the last A in AMERICA. The position of letters, leaves and berries confirms the attribution. Note that both Ns lean right, particularly that in CENT.

Distinguishing the obverses on a low grade coin among these three is the trickier task. However, if you look very closely at the peaks of the peaks of the three top hair waves and their relationship with the bases of the letters above them, the three obverse varieties can bve distinguished. Yours is narrowed instantly to obverse 32 (S-183) or obverse 33 (S-184 by the position of the top 2 curls to E and R. What gives it away, however, is the position of the third peak to the base of the T, which is slightly left of the base serif. Thus, your coin is S-184, without a doubt. R.2- (I was hoping it'd be an S-183, which is an R.6!)

Hoot

1798CentCollector · September 24, 2006 2:25PM

That's a great call HOOT . The engravers scratch from the right ribbon to A is evident. Obverse positioning of the T in LIBERTY is also consistent with HOOTs analysis as farther left of forelock than either the S-182 or S-183. which line up with the tip of the base of the serif. The B in the S-184 also is a bit higher and leans to the right. This is somewhat evident to my eyes in your photo and forms and odd looking or even "combination" of the letters BE in LIBERTY that is not evident in either the S-182 or S-183.

sumnom · September 24, 2006 4:24PM

Amazing! I never would have caught the die gouge. I can see that I have a lot to learn. Thank you for your analysis.

With there being so many 1798s to choose from, did you have a quick method of narrowing down the options? What are some of the things you look for first?

Hoot · September 24, 2006 4:45PM

<< <i>With there being so many 1798s to choose from, did you have a quick method of narrowing down the options? What are some of the things you look for first? >>

With low grade pieces, I always look for some distinct feature on the most detailed side first. This is almost always the reverse. Die cracks are great markers, and so are rim breaks. On many of the early cents, the relative position of the letters in ONE CENT is helpful and the position of the C and T in CENT to the adjoining leaves is useful. Also on the reverse, the position of various leaves to surrounding letters is quite helpful. For example, just using the position of the leaves under the second S in STATES can help you quickly narrow some choices.

On the obverse, Type 1 and Type 2 hair helps narrow the choices a bit, but only a bit and may not be discernable on the worst of specimens. The date and position of the numerals, even if you can only see the tops of them, can be quite helpful. And nearly always, the position of the peaks of the hair to LIBERTY is good for the final analyses. Look for the spacing of the letters and also the numerals of the date, if visible.

Hope this helps, Hoot.

sumnom · September 24, 2006 4:49PM

Yes, that helps a lot. I found the 260 by looking at the arrangement of the letters in CENT since I noticed the irregularity. Thanks for the tips.

sumnom · September 24, 2006 4:51PM

How do the Sheldon and Breen texts compare? I found a reasonably priced copy of the 1976 edition Sheldon on-line so I should have that fairly soon. If I have Sheldon is Breen necessary?

Hoot · September 24, 2006 5:13PM

The very best book for attribuing early date lage cents is Noyes. Unfortunately, you cannot buy it separately from the second book in the series. However, the second book is excellent, so there's nothing lost in buying both. There are several other superb books, but if you could only buy a couple, those would be the ones. Breen, Wright, Manley are all excellent texts. Breen's large cent and half cent books takes a very unusual approach, but his descriptions can be great supplement to a collector hungry for knowledge. Wright treats middle date cents wonderfully. Grellman's late-date book is great but not particularly easy to use, and the identity of late-date varieties is tough anyway. Manley's half cent book is superb and very easy to use.

Hoot

1798CentCollector · September 24, 2006 10:30PM

<< <i>The very best book for attribuing early date lage cents is Noyes. >>

Noyes provides the great photos to assist in attribution and simple descriptions. Reference photos are a real big plus when attributing varieties according to positioning of letters, hair, leaves etc., rather than diagnostic cuds and die cracks which provide much easier visual attribution. Breen lacks the quality photos, but has a some nice obverse and reverse pairing plates in the back of the book. Breen does excel in die state classification explanations and progression, although Noyes hits the major markers of early, middle, and late die states. Both texts are very useful and compliment each other well. Phill Ralls also wrote a guide that is very useful in attributing low grade lage cents that was published in EACs bimonthly journal (Penny Wise) in two parts in the early 90's. This is a very helpful guide for attributing these cents also.

sumnom · September 25, 2006 3:51PM

Thank you, 1798.

Are you a member of EAC? I am thinking of joining... of course this makes an uber geek, doesn't it?

1798CentCollector · September 25, 2006 11:05PM

Yes sumnom, I'm a card carrying member. I'm very much biased and already addicted to early coppers so I have a natural slant towards recommending that your seriously consider joining. I'd say if you have a more than passing surface interest in either half cents, large cents, and to an extent colonials - and enjpy early American history and its participants, then you should consider joining. IMO, EAC is a must for serious collectors of copper and you should give it a try if you have an interest in this area. The knowlege and diversity in EAC is impressive - with many noted experts and researchers to learn from and exchange ideas with. EACs bi-monthly journal Penny-Wise is alone worth the $25 dollar members fee. If you can attend, the annual conventions, bourse and sale are a great place to catch up with fellow collectors and enjoy several days of cooper heaven. There is also a weekly e-mail "newsletter" for members that keeps you informed and where you can exchange information and thoughts on coins and current events. It's a great organization, as others are, to develop great realtionships with those of similiar interests and additions to the earlty coppers. If interested, you can visit the club site at eacs.org. Rod Burress is the membership chairman and details for joining are on the site. BTW this is an enthusiastic endorsement and not a paid advertisement

SmallSizedGuy · September 25, 2006 11:22PM

I joined EAC earlier this year.

I’ve been a part time collector of early large cents off and on for several years, but I have been more involved with this area for the past year. Glad I joined EAC.

I don’t know about others, but I actually enjoy trying to attribute large cent varieties by Sheldon number.

sumnom · September 26, 2006 3:01AM

That was quite a pitch! I'm hooked.

And who wouldn't enjoy attributed large cents by Sheldon numbers?

In the responses to my question about large cent references, Sheldon doesn't surface. How come?

Conder101 · September 26, 2006 11:48AM

I haven't checked the reference thread but are you sure it didn't? While most of the references are refered to by their authors (Breen, Wright, Noyes etc) Sheldon is usually refered to by it's proper title Penny Whimsy. If it wasn't refered to it may be because except for in the used book market the only edition you will find is the 1990 edition and it isn't worth having (plates are very dark and basicly useless.) And if you have Noyes you basicly have Sheldon as well. Noyes have wonderful pictures and points out the diagnostic points well, but much of the descriptive text was lifted verbatum straight out of Penny Whimsey.

1798CentCollector · September 26, 2006 2:47PM

Sheldon authored a great book in Early Amercan Cents and later Penny Whimsy in collaboration with Breen and Paschal. It's a definitive reference and in my opinion a must for any serious LC collectors library. As Condor101 notes, avoid the 1990 edition reprinted by Durst - it wretched as far as the plates go. And as Condor101 points out, Noyes is a much better attribution guide especialy with the large and clear photographs, handy attribution markers, and descriptive text. A good picture is worth a thousand words and the Noyes photos assist tremendously in providing a clear basis for understanding and recognizing the variety and die state attributes. Don't overlook some of the early landmark Superior auction catalogs as great attribution and reference guides featuring examples of coins of varying condition and die states - Robinson S. Brown (1), 1986; Jackk Robinson, 1989; G Lee Kuntz, 1991; and Robinson S. Brown (2), 1996; JR Frankenfield, 2001; Wallace Lee, 2003; Adams Ward Smith Pre-Long Beach Sale, 2004 and Heritage's Wes Rasmussen 2005; and Jules Reiver 2006, to name a few should be on your list.

If you enjoy early coppers and the thrill of attributing, chances are you'll be hooked and EAC is IMO a very worthwhile investment. The addiction only becomes greater and there are all sorts of avenues open for study, research, and collecting. We all love the challenge of looking beyond the coin and date. Good to see SSGs interest in the club. Congratulations and glad to hear of your decision to join

David

Hoot · September 26, 2006 4:07PM

sumnom - I'm tuning in late to the responses, but you received some superb advice from 1798 and Condor101, as well as excellent support from SmallSizedGuy. Hope you join EAC and take the time to save and buy the books. They will take you a long way with this endeavor. Without my numismatic library and participation in collectors clubs, this hobby would have grown old and dusty for me (not to mention frustrating!) a long time ago.

Hoot

sumnom · May 15, 2007 11:16AM

A stroll down memory lane...

Draped Bust large cent question

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