Manofcoins = pharmacist killer?
zenny
Posts: 1,547 ✭✭
I pulled the following quote from another thread that has inspired me to make one last, "final statement" about this crap.
<< <i> He was the worst villain the profession of pharmacy has ever known as many people died in a prolonged and painful manner because of his actions. It may sound extreme, but I see a parallel with manofcoins actions in the profession of numismatics. >>
"It may sound extreme???"
It's now officially time to get a grip!
Sure, we can all see "parallels" when we look at bad behavior.
I watched one of those stupid televangecoinalists last week, they were saying how the gold buffalo, which they were selling for approximately twice market value, was, basically, the best investment in the whole world.
To me, this may enter the very fringe of the parallelogram mentioned above.
They are truly heinous people who prey on the uneducated shut-ins of the world.
They use every marketing technique know to mankind to separate elderly widows from what's left of their inheritances and tiny retirement incomes.
They are members of the family of man known as "the scum of the earth."
Yet, for me, they are at the very fringe of the parallelogram.
MOC squirted lemonade on a coin and tried to make 20 bucks.
He even apologized.
To all those who feel "betrayed" i'm sure MOC is sincerely sorry.
To all those who are afraid to buy coins now, good. It means you probably didn't know enough about them to be buying them in the first place.
To those who are afraid to lose their money when buying coins with color on them, do a search of the U.S. Coin Forum for the name "Barney."
And to all those who think there is even the slightest suggestion of the evil done by a murderous pharmacist by the pitiful actions of our once beloved forum member, you need to get a life.
humbly, and finally,
z
<< <i> He was the worst villain the profession of pharmacy has ever known as many people died in a prolonged and painful manner because of his actions. It may sound extreme, but I see a parallel with manofcoins actions in the profession of numismatics. >>
"It may sound extreme???"
It's now officially time to get a grip!
Sure, we can all see "parallels" when we look at bad behavior.
I watched one of those stupid televangecoinalists last week, they were saying how the gold buffalo, which they were selling for approximately twice market value, was, basically, the best investment in the whole world.
To me, this may enter the very fringe of the parallelogram mentioned above.
They are truly heinous people who prey on the uneducated shut-ins of the world.
They use every marketing technique know to mankind to separate elderly widows from what's left of their inheritances and tiny retirement incomes.
They are members of the family of man known as "the scum of the earth."
Yet, for me, they are at the very fringe of the parallelogram.
MOC squirted lemonade on a coin and tried to make 20 bucks.
He even apologized.
To all those who feel "betrayed" i'm sure MOC is sincerely sorry.
To all those who are afraid to buy coins now, good. It means you probably didn't know enough about them to be buying them in the first place.
To those who are afraid to lose their money when buying coins with color on them, do a search of the U.S. Coin Forum for the name "Barney."
And to all those who think there is even the slightest suggestion of the evil done by a murderous pharmacist by the pitiful actions of our once beloved forum member, you need to get a life.
humbly, and finally,
z
0
Comments
--Jerry
<< <i>It's now officially time to get a grip! >>
I agree. There's no excuse for his actions, but some around here are lost in the ozone.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
To all those who are afraid to buy coins now, good. It means you probably didn't know enough about them to be buying them in the first place.
>>
Worth Quoting
--Jerry >>>>>>>
im hoping he was saying this would be his final word on the subject. because this is something that wont, no matter how bad you want it to, go away in one or two days.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I can't follow your post except to smile like I always do when somebody posts their position and then states "This should be the last post". I think most people don't even realize how ludicrous it is in any discussion to simply declare that your opinion should be the last word.
--Jerry >>
What was it about
<< <i>...that has inspired me to make one last, "final statement" about this crap. >>
that has you so confused ?
Is any one person not allowed to make what they would consider their last statement on any given subject ?
<< <i>
<< <i>
To all those who are afraid to buy coins now, good. It means you probably didn't know enough about them to be buying them in the first place.
>>
>>
I think that a little skepticism is healthy, overconfidence in what we think we know is just as bad.
<< <i>Jerry--he's saying it's his last statement. Not that it will necessarily be anyone else's. Zenny is a sharp guy. I'll read any statement he makes with interest. >>
OK, I reread the thread and Zenny sent me a PM and it makes more sense now--I even agree with most of it. And I mis-read his statement about finality. Sorry, Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>It's now officially time to get a grip! >>
I agree. There's no excuse for his actions, but some around here are lost in the ozone.
Russ, NCNE >>
You certainly aren't surprised are you?
To all those who are afraid to buy coins now, good. It means you probably didn't know enough about them to be buying them in the first place. >>>
Very true, good post!
Brian
He was trying it out (so to speak) who knows what the future would have brought?
Did I mention that he was asking all of you to come bid on his stuff personally? I believe he's since edited the BST ad.
JMWO
MOC squirted lemonade on a coin and tried to make 20 bucks.
He even apologized.
Does lemonade really turn your silver into the deep dark burnt gray "monsters" that MOC was trying to sell? Did he apologize to the coins? They really took a beating?
This is my final word on the subject
There...I said it...
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
<< <i>I pulled the following quote from another thread that has inspired me to make one last, "final statement" about this crap.
<< <i> He was the worst villain the profession of pharmacy has ever known as many people died in a prolonged and painful manner because of his actions. It may sound extreme, but I see a parallel with manofcoins actions in the profession of numismatics.
>>
"It may sound extreme???" It's now officially time to get a grip! And to all those who think there is even the slightest suggestion of the evil done by a murderous pharmacist by the pitiful actions of our once beloved forum member, you need to get a life. >>
Zenny,
When you pull a quote from an independent thread to make a point, the right thing to do would be to quote the entire initial post, not just a sentence or two. Without a reference post for context, you can suggest and intimate whatever spin you want, but remember, the original post contained the thoughts and feelings of someone other than yourself. Without the reference post, you have given yourself license to make statements as far out of context as you wish, which of course is your prerogative. At the very least, a link would've been appropriate.
Proper context facilitates a proper discussion on any initial posting. Otherwise, you're just stirring the pot.
Original Post
No hard feelings though. This issue touches us all on different levels, even if we don't want to admit it.
Best regards,
Meet my first little guy, Benjamin. Born 4/8/2007
Pic taken at 2.5 years of age.
Good point.
MOC has killed Farmer ..............
<< <i>
<< <i>It's now officially time to get a grip! >>
I agree. There's no excuse for his actions, but some around here are lost in the ozone.
Russ, NCNE >>
thats an understatement
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i> I didn't think the whole MANOFCOINS fiasco would affect me. I was wrong; it has affected me.
After looking at the coin offerings on eBay and other websites tonight, my first in-depth viewing since the news broke, I find myself pained, saddened, and hollow inside as I look at coins that two days ago, would've made my heart beat fast with pleasure.
Call me naive if you wish, or even a bit too introspective on this issue, but I am deeply saddened at the realization that my passion and wonder for certain types of coins has been tainted. Even though I knew coin doctors existed, and even though I can recognize pretty well an AT coin from a NT coin, or dipped skin from original skin, my joy has still been affected.
Some of you on the forum know that I am a pharmacist by profession. Ethics in pharmacy is based entirely on acting in good faith for the patient. A few years back, some may recall that there was a pharmacist in Kansas City who diluted his patients' injectable cancer medications just to make extra money, millions in fact. Ultimately, he got caught. He was the worst villain the profession of pharmacy has ever known as many people died in a prolonged and painful manner because of his actions. It may sound extreme, but I see a parallel with manofcoins actions in the profession of numismatics. Although he didn't kill people for money like the pharmacist did, he did hurt coin collectors and coin dealers alike. Just as the public's trust in Pharmacists and the profession of Pharmacy was shaken, so too can manofcoins actions shake the very foundation of public trust in coin dealers and in the profession of Numismatics. The damage may be irreparable. Toned coins may take a tank and honest dealers and unsuspecting collectors may feel the real hurt in the end.
I am surprised that I find myself affected as much as I am. I hope he hasn't permanently dimmed the light that was my joy, my serenity, my sense of wonder, my fascination, and my connection to my youth from collecting. I know that's a heavy heap to throw onto one person's actions, but the fact is that he is the first coin doctor to get caught publicly and as a result, admit his deception. For me, he got caught, he lied about it, and then he ultimately came clean in my home, while I was reading a thread on a forum that I enjoy with all of my defenses down. It hurt to watch it unfold.
To Ira Stein and Laura Sperber, and all of those of you who choose not to forgive him, I salute you. Personal and spiritual redemption is for a higher power to decide, not the forum. Time to move on manofcoins and say goodbye. Closure within the circle of the forum would be helpful.
We all have made mistakes or regretful choices in life. How you choose to pick up the pieces from this and move on will say a lot about your sincerity.
-------------------------
Jeff Karp >>
There I quoted the whole damn thing. How did zenny use anything out of context, to use your words “you have given yourself license to make statements as far out of context as you wish, which of course is your prerogative. At the very least, a link would've been appropriate.”
Zenny hit the hammer right on the nail, some members “need to get a life”.
<< <i>I am not sure that you understand just how big this? >>
Just how big is it? I like my coins either white or dirty. This tone crap is of no use to me (it all looks fake).
JMHO,
Tim
The integrity of the entire PROFESSION is in jeopardy. Anyone who sells toned coins for a living is in jeopardy. If the public gets wind of this, the fallout could be HUGE. Craig also put the PCGS product, which many collectors trust, in jeopardy as well.
That was the point of my thread. I do not have any coins of concern in my collection. My concern is for the professionals in the industry who make their living doing what they enjoy, selling coins. My concern is for the collector who trusts that the PCGS slab is tamper proof, and as such puts their faith and their hard earned money into a coin and into a coin dealer in good faith. We all know about buying the coin not the slab, but this is the public we are talking about and the profession that most of us hold dear to our hearts.
If the market crashes because the public reacts, we all loose. Some more than others, but we all loose. Don't fool yourself.
Best regards,
Meet my first little guy, Benjamin. Born 4/8/2007
Pic taken at 2.5 years of age.
Tom, Shame on you!
<< <i>To all those who are afraid to buy coins now, good. It means you probably didn't know enough about them to be buying them in the first place.
Good point >>
By the same logic, if you have to depend on the grading services in order not to be afraid to buy coins, it probably means that you don't know enough to be paying significant money for coins in the first place either.
<< <i>This issue isn't about a collector who doesn't know the difference between AT and NT coins. It's much bigger than that and you guys who scoff may not have as much to loose as do many others if the public finds out about this and freaks out.
The integrity of the entire PROFESSION is in jeopardy. Anyone who sells toned coins for a living is in jeopardy. If the plublic gets wind of this, the fallout could be HUGE. Craig also put the PCGS product, which many collectors trust, in jeopardy as well. >>
Very good! Someone with a post recond of only 109 posts has recongized the REAL danger that it seems most everyone else has either missed or chosen to ignore. The real danger is the potential loss of confidence that what is in the slab is original and unaltered. If it becomes widely known that it is possible that coins may have been artifically toned WHILE they are in the slab then confidence in any slabbed coin that isn't blast white may become suspect. And the confidence in the slabs of PCGS and NGC are a major factor supporting the coin market today. If the market were to lose confidence in PCGS material (And potentialy NGC to a lessor extent as well since altered piece may have been crossed) what would happen? ANACS becomes #1? And what about the tons of PCGS and NGC slabs out there that are now viewed witha skeptical eye? I would think that they would become much more difficult to sell and the prices would drop. Karpman is right this altering in the holder does have the potential to shake the entire market.
<< <i>... My concern is for the collector who trusts that the PCGS slab is tamper proof, and as such puts their faith and their hard earned money into a coin and into a coin dealer in good faith... >>
I would think PCGS would be concerned as well. Why didn't they recall these OGH slabs before?
Will they recall them now given the current fiasco?
If one can mess with a coin in a OGH, and then resubmit to get a new slab, doesn't that shake my faith in any of their holders? (at least for toned coins). You bet it does.
coinpage.com
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>
<< <i>
To all those who are afraid to buy coins now, good. It means you probably didn't know enough about them to be buying them in the first place.
>>
Worth Quoting
Worth quoting because it sounds stupid? What are people suppose to do? Spend several years learning how to grade proficiently before buying their first coin? It's a bunch of b.s.
Jerry
This tone crap is of no use to me (it all looks fake).
------You know what? I am starting to feel the same (that most look fake) on about 99% of the toned coins I now see. But I can easily reverse this feeling when I see a nice attractive NT coin (bag toned or album toned) which has a toning that you can almost see the thickness of.
<< <i>I pulled
Zenny,
When you pull a quote from an independent thread to make a point, the right thing to do would be to quote the entire initial post, not just a sentence or two. Without a reference post for context, you can suggest and intimate whatever spin you want, but remember, the original post , >>
What fun is that..........
In response to the comparison of coin dealers and pharmacists, I consider the words 'honest coin dealer' similar to 'jumbo shrimp' - they don't go together (of course, there are exceptions to every rule). Pharmacists, on the other hand, deal with people who need medication, insurance companies, the government (state & federal), and other medical professionals. Drugs, money, audits and cranky customers - you have to deal with integrity or you will lose your license and/or credibility (as well as lots of $$). Nonetheless, there will always be unscrupulous RPhs who sooner or later get caught - it's just not usually as sensational (or disgusting) as the Kansas incident. I'm rambling again -
As often repeated here, buy the coin, not the plastic! And when you find a pharmacist that is available to answer your questions and earns your trust, stick with him/her as long as you are able!
every treasure on Earth
to be young at heart?
And as rich as you are,
it's much better by far,
to be young at heart!
Oh Please, if the market hasn't "crashed" because of the tons of unethical dealers (wannabees or whatever), and what could only be considered criminal television coin sales scams AND phone based, boiler room type coin sales scams, then MOCs actions aren't going to amount to a hill of beans.
Especially considering the small group (relatively speaking) of collectors that actually actively collect the toned stuff. Could it be that it is only the purveyors of this stuff that are worried that the unjustified, lofty prices of this material may come back to earth where they belong?
Jim
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
To all those who are afraid to buy coins now, good. It means you probably didn't know enough about them to be buying them in the first place.
>>
Worth Quoting
Worth quoting because it sounds stupid? What are people suppose to do? Spend several years learning how to grade proficiently before buying their first coin? It's a bunch of b.s.
Jerry >>
well said, when pertaining to higher end coins.