The point that people seem to be missing with all the AT debate...
IndianHeadMan
Posts: 826 ✭
The coin are forever damaged. They will never be original or clean. This not only hurts us, but kills the hobby 100, 200 years from now. There is no way to reverse the damage.
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<< <i>The coin are forever damaged. They will never be original or clean. This not only hurts us, but kills the hobby 100, 200 years from now. There is no way to reverse the damage. >>
The point that you (and many others) seem to be missing is that most ATed coins more than likely weren't original even before someone toned them. AT LEAST 90% of ALL non-Morgan dollar (yes, Pollyanna, even in slabs from companies whose initials start with P or N and who offer a free internet forum to collectors) 19th century and earlier silver has been cleaned and/or dipped. AT in no way hurts us or will kill the hobby 100 or 200 years from now any more than any other past, present, or future ways of "improving" a coin's looks.
Our coin heritage is being destroyed.
<< <i>
<< <i>The coin are forever damaged. They will never be original or clean. This not only hurts us, but kills the hobby 100, 200 years from now. There is no way to reverse the damage. >>
The point that you (and many others) seem to be missing is that most ATed coins more than likely weren't original even before someone ATed them. AT LEAST 90% of ALL non-Morgan dollar (yes, Pollyanna, even in slabs from companies whose initials start with P or N and who offer a free internet forum to collectors) 19th century and earlier silver has been cleaned and/or dipped. AT in no way hurts us or will kill the hobby 100 or 200 years from now any more than any other past, present, or future ways of "improving" a coin's looks. >>
I'm sorry, but I find 99% of what you said to be BS. What's this broad observation of 90% of all 19century silver based on?
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Yeah it's going to be real easy for someone to find an original coin from the 1800's in 100 years. >>
It's not real easy now.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I'm sorry, but I find 99% of what you said to be BS. What's this broad observation of 90% of all 19century silver based on? >>
If we restrict this to AU and MS coins, I'm not sure the 90% figure is that far off. That's just based on a gut feeling of what I've seen.
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<< <i>
<< <i>The coin are forever damaged. They will never be original or clean. This not only hurts us, but kills the hobby 100, 200 years from now. There is no way to reverse the damage. >>
The point that you (and many others) seem to be missing is that most ATed coins more than likely weren't original even before someone ATed them. AT LEAST 90% of ALL non-Morgan dollar (yes, Pollyanna, even in slabs from companies whose initials start with P or N and who offer a free internet forum to collectors) 19th century and earlier silver has been cleaned and/or dipped. AT in no way hurts us or will kill the hobby 100 or 200 years from now any more than any other past, present, or future ways of "improving" a coin's looks. >>
I'm sorry, but I find 99% of what you said to be BS. What's this broad observation of 90% of all 19century silver based on? >>
Based on 40 years of collecting 19th century silver with the knowledge that it was basically unsalable until the late 1970's unless it had been dipped back to white. The only reason I leave Morgans out is because many of them survived that time period without needing to be dipped.
Re-reading my post (and reading responses) leads me to realize that it can be misinterpeted to mean that I support the idea of "improving" a coin's looks. I don't. I just don't see where artificially toning one to fit today's idea of attractive is any worse than the 1960s custom of dipping everything white...the 1970s/80's custom of using a jeweler's cloth...or whatever tomorrow's custom will be.
My only point is that the sky is not falling. The hobby has survived for centurys and will continue for any forseeable future.
From
The breaking of trust of a fellow board member
To
The ruining of the coins forever
and all the issues in between
If you saying that "white" coins are all dipped, then look at GSA morgans. I have to believe the goverment didnt clean or dip those.
Another note: You dont see a lot of toned ones in the GSA holders.
I know dipping bothers a lot of people. I'm again going on what I've read (but I read a lot) and it seems dipping was just as taboo as color toning is now a few years back. Now dipping isn't universally accepted but there are people here on this discussion board--which is about as "purist" as you can get--who admit they believe in dipping coins.
Your point would bother me more if someone showed me a very rare mint state, original 6 or 7 digit value coin that had been colored. I would totally agree with you there. But there was nothing even close to that in MOCs sales.
As others have pointed out, MOC appeared to be a very small operator and there are many other much bigger operators in the "highly respected" ranks. They may be colorizing the very rare coins which is indeed as shame. Maybe MOC is getting a lot of anger meant for others vented at him because he's the only one we can identify.
So I'm a big fan of pre 1800 coins. If someone showed me a colorized 1799 bust half, then maybe I'd get more excited. I'll have to admit, Morgan's seem "all alike and a dime a dozen" to me...but I've got a beautiful 1886 one encased in hemispherical plastic on my desk as a paperweight.(I'm not bashing Morgan's, I'm just letting people know where I stand so if you want to say "this guy just doesn't understand the value of Morgans" you may have a good point.)
--Jerry
<< <i>If you saying that "white" coins are all dipped, then look at GSA morgans. I have to believe the goverment didnt clean or dip those.
Another note: You dont see a lot of toned ones in the GSA holders. >>
I believe he specifically said 90% of all non-Morgans.
<< <i>The coin are forever damaged. They will never be original or clean. This not only hurts us, but kills the hobby 100, 200 years from now. There is no way to reverse the damage. >>
I've made this point in the past, but it falls on deaf ears. All most people care about is, (1) Will I make money on it? (2) The color might be fake, but I like it anyway.
With attitudes like that, future collectors who like original coins will have even less of a chance of finding what they like.
We are the custodians for future collectors, but most people don't give a darn about that.
A hundred years from now, in a coin shop near you. A collector will be looking at a bunch of silver and ask the dealer:
"How original is this coin?"
Dealer, "looks pretty nice, I'd say it has been dipped but it wasn't hurt. Don't think it has ever been cleaned."
Collector, "Yeah, I guess most MS coins from the 19th century have been dipped."
Dealer, "Yeah, they even went through a phase just after the new millenium when they were gassing coins to make them colorful so all those coins have now been dipped."
Collector, "So this is a pretty good piece. I'll take it."
--JErry
<< <i><< The coin are forever damaged. They will never be original or clean. This not only hurts us, but kills the hobby 100, 200 years from now. There is no way to reverse the damage. >>
I've made this point in the past, but it falls on deaf ears. All most people care about is, (1) Will I make money on it? (2) The color might be fake, but I like it anyway.
With attitudes like that, future collectors who like original coins will have even less of a chance of finding what they like.
We are the custodians for future collectors, but most people don't give a darn about that. >>
Agreed Bill!!!
I made a similar comment in another thread...
<< <i>"Market acceptable"... there's the kicker. As long as people admire the colors the doctors are creating there will be a market. Time, after time, after time I see an obviously doctored coin that someone just loves. They post it here and go bananas over the colors. Entire threads exhist discussing artificially toned "beauties".
Doctoring makes it harder for collectors to find "undoctored/naturally toned/unmessed with" coins. But in my opinion there will be a time when these doctored coins are the red headed step children of the hobby. When that day (finally) comes, collectors will pay a significant premium for the "natural" coins, toned or not.
Just my opinion. >>
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
<< <i>The coin are forever damaged. They will never be original or clean. This not only hurts us, but kills the hobby 100, 200 years from now. There is no way to reverse the damage. >>
No. Several have commented on this.
The real point that people are missing is that so long as collectors are willing to
pay multiples for some characteristic then there will be those trying to supply it.
As soon as collectors decide that toning is not necessarily the best thing for coins
there will no longer be those toning them.
A little dip and it all goes away.
<< <i>The coin are forever damaged. They will never be original or clean. This not only hurts us, but kills the hobby 100, 200 years from now. There is no way to reverse the damage. >>
Look at the bright side. They're only Morgans and easily replaceable.
<< <i>The coin are forever damaged. They will never be original or clean. This not only hurts us, but kills the hobby 100, 200 years from now. There is no way to reverse the damage. >>
As long as a person doesn't take an ATd or altered coin and try to sell it, I don't care what he does with it. It's his coin.
<< <i>As soon as collectors decide that toning is not necessarily the best thing for coins
they will no longer be those toning them. >>
Instead we will be back in the days where everything has to be white in order to sell it and the doctors will be dipping everything in sight.
<< <i>As long as a person doesn't take an ATd or altered coin and try to sell it, I don't care what he does with it. It's his coin. >>
So you are of the opinion that an ATd or altered coin should never be sold again? What do we do with the bulk of the coins out there then since more than half have been cleaned, dipped or altered in some way? Do we melt them down?
Face facts, you say you don't care because it is his coin. But no one is immortal and some day it will be someone elses damaged coin. The coins you own are NOT just your coins, they are also the coins of everyone who comes after you. You have an obligation to protect these coins for the ones who come later. The attitude of "It's his to do with as he pleases." Could be applied to other things as well. Why should I conserve resources, or wory about pollution? It will last as long as I wil be around. Who cares about the people who will have to live in my filth. If they don't like it they can move somewhere else and trash their own area."
<< <i>Face facts, you say you don't care because it is his coin. But no one is immortal and some day it will be someone elses damaged coin. The coins you own are NOT just your coins, they are also the coins of everyone who comes after you. You have an obligation to protect these coins for the ones who come later. The attitude of "It's his to do with as he pleases." Could be applied to other things as well. Why should I conserve resources, or wory about pollution? It will last as long as I wil be around. Who cares about the people who will have to live in my filth. If they don't like it they can move somewhere else and trash their own area." >>
Very eloquent.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
<< <i>
<< <i>As soon as collectors decide that toning is not necessarily the best thing for coins
they will no longer be those toning them. >>
Instead we will be back in the days where everything has to be white in order to sell it and the doctors will be dipping everything in sight.
<< <i>As long as a person doesn't take an ATd or altered coin and try to sell it, I don't care what he does with it. It's his coin. >>
So you are of the opinion that an ATd or altered coin should never be sold again? What do we do with the bulk of the coins out there then since more than half have been cleaned, dipped or altered in some way? Do we melt them down?
Face facts, you say you don't care because it is his coin. But no one is immortal and some day it will be someone elses damaged coin. The coins you own are NOT just your coins, they are also the coins of everyone who comes after you. You have an obligation to protect these coins for the ones who come later. The attitude of "It's his to do with as he pleases." Could be applied to other things as well. Why should I conserve resources, or wory about pollution? It will last as long as I wil be around. Who cares about the people who will have to live in my filth. If they don't like it they can move somewhere else and trash their own area." >>
Life is merely a series of choices.
If someone chooses not to believe what another person says or thinks, that is their choice.
<< <i>
<< <i>As soon as collectors decide that toning is not necessarily the best thing for coins
they will no longer be those toning them. >>
Instead we will be back in the days where everything has to be white in order to sell it and the doctors will be dipping everything in sight.
<< <i>As long as a person doesn't take an ATd or altered coin and try to sell it, I don't care what he does with it. It's his coin. >>
So you are of the opinion that an ATd or altered coin should never be sold again? What do we do with the bulk of the coins out there then since more than half have been cleaned, dipped or altered in some way? Do we melt them down?
Face facts, you say you don't care because it is his coin. But no one is immortal and some day it will be someone elses damaged coin. The coins you own are NOT just your coins, they are also the coins of everyone who comes after you. You have an obligation to protect these coins for the ones who come later. The attitude of "It's his to do with as he pleases." Could be applied to other things as well. Why should I conserve resources, or wory about pollution? It will last as long as I wil be around. Who cares about the people who will have to live in my filth. If they don't like it they can move somewhere else and trash their own area." >>
What I ment to say about the ATd and altered coin is that it should never be passed off as something it isn't. I don't care if they sell it as long as they accurately describe it.
Lets keep things in reason here. We are talking coins, not pollution or natural resourses. I feel that I can buy a rare coin and pound it into a spoon ring if I want to, I can take it to a lake and skip it across the water. It's my coin. They certainly don't belong to anyone who comes after me unless I choose for that to happen. How in the world did you equate that with pollution and natural resourses? Kind of overly dramatic in my opinion (and fishing for the kudos that will undoubtly come your way).
<< <i>A little dip and it all goes away. >>
I'm tired of this subject, but I thought I would point out that this is a myth. You can not dip a rainbowed coin and get the old coin back. Sorry. Dipping removes layers of the coin. The coins will never be the same. Also keep in mind I said original, not white.
<< <i>The coin are forever damaged. They will never be original or clean. This not only hurts us, but kills the hobby 100, 200 years from now. There is no way to reverse the damage. >>
I agree with you. However, I would add the hobby is already incurring a slow death. Forget about 100-200 years down the road.