How much longer will it go on?

cosmicdebris · August 29, 2006 1:40AM

Cladiator · August 29, 2006 1:41AM

The entire affair is but a day or two old. I think bringing out the dead horse icon is a bit premature.

Rampage · August 29, 2006 1:45AM

<< The entire affair is but a day or two old. I think bringing out the dead horse icon is a bit premature. >>

I agree. This guy has ruined his reputation here for a very long time, maybe forever. Such a sad situation.

ss350camaro · August 29, 2006 1:49AM

The story is still fairly new, and still unfolding.

This new thread is very interesting, and shows a history of corruption.

Besides, this is a coin forum. Why shouldn't coin issues be discussed at length here?

ziggy29 · August 29, 2006 1:49AM

I don't think it's a dead horse yet. This is huge stuff here and it turns the implied "security" of buying slabbed coins on his head. That has such a potential implication for the coin market that expecting it to die after a day or two is probably not realistic.

eyoung429 · August 29, 2006 2:00AM

Nah, we are still in the small bucket of popcorn stage......

FatMan · August 29, 2006 2:04AM

In my mind MOC has commited a Capital Numismatic Crime. The penalty is expulsion from the hobby and simply putting this behind us is not acceptable. I will continue to beat the dead horse years from now. It is the apathy surrounding the doctors that allow them to thrive.

lloydmincy · August 29, 2006 2:08AM

It seems to me there is a lot of angst against doctored coins, BUT WHY ARE THERE SO MANY, AND WHY ARE PATRONS BUYING THEM?? It's a simple supply and demand. If no one bought them, the doctors would go away. You can complain all you want about them, but they keep making money.

Outhaul · August 29, 2006 2:14AM

<< The story is still fairly new, and still unfolding >>

Unfolding my ass...he screwed up and apologized. Story told, nothing left to unfold, lies admitted to, forgive or don't forgive. Move on, the dead horse is certainly appropriate. MOC will either leave the forums and the hobby or hang around and attempt to redeem himself (not that he's obligated to ANYONE here). It's HIS business on what he will do from here and nobody elses.

FatMan · August 29, 2006 2:17AM

<< It seems to me there is a lot of angst against doctored coins, BUT WHY ARE THERE SO MANY, AND WHY ARE PATRONS BUYING THEM?? It's a simple supply and demand. If no one bought them, the doctors would go away. You can complain all you want about them, but they keep making money. >>

Yep, that makes it OK.

What an asinine reply. Collectors don't pay out money for doctored coins, they are deceived and told the doctored coins are problem free. If every coin that was doctored was identified as such, the doctors would quickly go out of business. These rediculous comments suggesting that collectors are creating the demand just pisses me off. Collectors are being decieved plain and simple.

Cladiator · August 29, 2006 2:20AM

<< 

<< The story is still fairly new, and still unfolding >>

Unfolding my ass...he screwed up and apologized. Story told, nothing left to unfold, lies admitted to, forgive or don't forgive. Move on, the dead horse is certainly appropriate. MOC will either leave the forums and the hobby or hang around and attempt to redeem himself (not that he's obligated to ANYONE here). It' HIS business on what he will do from here and nobody elses.

>>

I don't understand you "short attention span" people. Is it ADD or ADHD?

Tell me...What is wrong with conversing over a topic that is important to the hobby? Should we be limited to the amount of threads we are allowed to start on the topic? Should we be limited to the amount of words on the subject we are allowed to type?

I'm beginning to question the motivs of some of you who are trying to sweep this under the carpet after only a couple days. Why might you want people not talking about this?

ss350camaro · August 29, 2006 2:22AM

<< 

<< The story is still fairly new, and still unfolding >>

Unfolding my ass...he screwed up and apologized. Story told, nothing left to unfold, lies admitted to, forgive or don't forgive. Move on, the dead horse is certainly appropriate. MOC will either leave the forums and the hobby or hang around and attempt to redeem himself (not that he's obligated to ANYONE here). It's HIS business on what he will do from here and nobody elses.

>>

I think you're missing the bigger picture, and long term implications, but certainly allowed to share your opinion

Outhaul · August 29, 2006 2:24AM

Because it has now turned into hunting down old, old, old MOC threads. Every swinging dick on this forum is just beating this to death. I dare say that there isn't ANYONE on the forum who DOESN'T know about it. The coins were AT'd, he admitted it. How many different ways are there to talk about it? How many more people are going to demand his nuts be put in a vice?

Cladiator · August 29, 2006 2:26AM

<< Because it has now turned into hunting down old, old, old MOC threads. Every swinging dick on this forum is just beating this to death. I dare say that there isn't ANYONE on the forum who DOESN'T know about it. The coins were AT'd, he admitted it. How many different ways are there to talk about it? >>

Oh. Excuse me for my ignorance. I was unaware that you have been annointent King of the Forums and will decide when and if a topic is concluded for discussion.

If you don't want to discuss it then don't open/read the threads. Don't try to impose your wishes on the rest of us.

You know the old addage..."he that doth protest the loudest"?

ss350camaro · August 29, 2006 2:27AM

<< Because it has now turned into hunting down old, old, old MOC threads. Every swinging dick on this forum is just beating this to death. I dare say that there isn't ANYONE on the forum who DOESN'T know about it. The coins were AT'd, he admitted it. How many different ways are there to talk about it? How many more people are going to demand his nuts be put in a vice? >>

ok, fine.

Please start some relevant coin threads so we can discuss them.

Thanks

Outhaul · August 29, 2006 2:30AM

<< I was unaware that you have been annointent King of the Forums and will decide when and if a topic is concluded for discussion >>

Ah...so it's only YOUR opinion that counts.

Cladiator · August 29, 2006 2:33AM

<< 

<< I was unaware that you have been annointent King of the Forums and will decide when and if a topic is concluded for discussion >>

Ah...so it's only YOUR opinion that counts. >>

Nice try but wrong. You are trying to enforce your opinion on others by attempting to limit the amount of discussion on the topic.

I am simply saying if you don't want to discuss it don't open the threads. I'm not trying to force anyone to read the threads.

It's a free country so don't limit other people's discussions. Don't partake in them if you're not interested.

ABC123 · August 29, 2006 2:33AM

The Beatings will Continue until Morale Improves !-- Johnny Depp

ziggy29 · August 29, 2006 2:36AM

<< Unfolding my ass...he screwed up and apologized. Story told, nothing left to unfold, lies admitted to, forgive or don't forgive. Move on, the dead horse is certainly appropriate. MOC will either leave the forums and the hobby or hang around and attempt to redeem himself (not that he's obligated to ANYONE here). It's HIS business on what he will do from here and nobody elses. >>

Chapter 1 has closed. At this point it's no longer just about MOC and an isolated incident (which I agree is pretty much a dead horse at this point) but rather the implications of this "crime" and how the numismatic Powers That Be respond to it.

What happens to the slabbed toner market, how the TPGs respond, how to identify this type of "in holder" AT jobs, these are still part of the story to come.

You're always free to skip these threads.

Outhaul · August 29, 2006 2:37AM

My opinion is that it's a dead horse, you're entitled to yours.

Cladiator · August 29, 2006 2:38AM

<< You're always free to skip these threads. >>

BINGO!

MajorDuty · August 29, 2006 2:39AM

<< The story is still fairly new, and still unfolding.

This new thread is very interesting, and shows a history of corruption.

Besides, this is a coin forum. Why shouldn't coin issues be discussed at length here? >>

Not to mention it is the biggest story in a long time.

szavori · August 29, 2006 2:45AM

<< Because it has now turned into hunting down old, old, old MOC threads. Every swinging dick on this forum is just beating this to death. I dare say that there isn't ANYONE on the forum who DOESN'T know about it. The coins were AT'd, he admitted it. How many different ways are there to talk about it? How many more people are going to demand his nuts be put in a vice? >>

MOC Google Search

MOC Toned Coin Collector's Society forum posts

FatMan · August 29, 2006 2:45AM

<< My opinion is that it's a dead horse, you're entitled to yours. >>

My opinion is it looks like you are doing MOC's bidding. Not an association I would be proud of right now. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Ziggy is right, this is much bigger than MOC. This is about the fact that the doctors aren't slimey, smelly old men who operate in dark basements with their chemicals and tools only to come out after dark. The doctors are all around us and we don't even recognize it. This is about trust, and knowing who it is safe to do business with. This is about many seasoned and new collectors being hoodwinked and falling hook, line and sinker in trusting a doctor. Oh, this is much bigger than MOC. I am now very suspicious, and your moving thread to thread trying to put this behind us makes me a bit suspicious of you now.

lkenefic · August 29, 2006 2:48AM

<< I don't think it's a dead horse yet. This is huge stuff here and it turns the implied "security" of buying slabbed coins on his head. That has such a potential implication for the coin market that expecting it to die after a day or two is probably not realistic. >>

NO TRUER WORDS!!! This is huge for the hobby and to think it will just go away because the perpetrator offers an "I'm sorry" and a refund is naive at best and just plain stupid at worst. I've read most of the threads and I'll just stop here before I write something I'll regret later.

Leo

coinguy1 · August 29, 2006 2:51AM

<<... this is much bigger than MOC>>

Agreed. All of this attention is being focused on what is an infinitesimal part of a huge problem in our industry. I understand the focus, as this is new news about a real person. However, I hope people wont lose sight of the (much) larger picture/problems.

ziggy29 · August 29, 2006 2:55AM

<< Agreed. All of this attention is being focused on what is an infinitesimal part of a huge problem in our industry. I understand the focus, as this is new news about a real person. However, I hope people wont lose sight of the (much) larger picture/problems. >>

Yep. At this point I see little reason to dredge up more of Craig's past. We know that well enough and I think we all have pretty well established our position. Continued flogging of one individual isn't that productive, but pondering what to do about the "bigger picture" as a result of this revelation was, is, and will continue to be a big, big thing.

This story isn't going away soon. It may eventually shift from flogging of one individual (arguably two if you include those flinging accusations they refuse to prove) toward the larger picture -- and the sooner the better where that's concerned IMO -- but that larger picture should not be allowed to return to the being the unspoken underbelly of the beast.

19Lyds · August 29, 2006 2:57AM

<< This is huge stuff here and it turns the implied "security" of buying slabbed coins on his head. That has such a potential implication for the coin market that expecting it to die after a day or two is probably not realistic. >>

I think the "implied security" of 1st generation PCGS slabs has always been in question which is the reason that PCGS stopped using them! These slabs have been counterfeited and only an educated (or wary) eye can spot them.

Unless MOC can prove otherwise, I feel relatively safe with the current PCGS slab.

IrishMike · August 29, 2006 3:17AM

You guys with the dead horses, don't know what to say to you, but do you really believe the story is over and all the truth is out? I don't and I suspect many more don't. What about Boom's allegations, the folks who purchased coins from moc, etc. At the very least be respectful of those who deserve answers and/or won't rest till satified until all the truth comes out. Unlike you guys I haven't seen proof that the truth is entirely out. In the meantime if you can't resist throwing your hissy fits, don't read the threads.

Outhaul · August 29, 2006 3:21AM

Okay, Ziggy, I'll go along with chapter 2 and make a contribution.

I fail to understand the shock and horror of the toner situation. People are demanding monster coins and will pay monster money for them. Regardless of the subject (coins, marbles, cardboard, etc.) if there is a market to make an extra killing in there will be someone out there to exploit it. This will be done by counterfeiting, retouching, puttying, blending, thumbing, and artifically toning.

AT coins have been found in holders for years and have passed through hands and posted on forums and people have simply stated "How the hell did that ever get into a holder?" Personally, I find toned coins attractive and I even have a couple. However, I'm a collector and not a dealer. I don't actively seek toners nor do I make a market in them. I think that those who DO seek toners are taking big risks for paying that huge premium. People have asked many times when this craziness will end. Well, it won't. I think that the only affect this will have on the toned coin market is that the non-expert toner collectors will probably get themselves "smarter" or give up toners altogether, and the EXPERT toner collectors will be more careful. Nothing will stop the doctors just as nothing stops the drug dealer, the cardboard trimmer. As long as there are people who are willing to pay 10X the price for a coin because of color there will be someone willing to take the risk and cook one to fill the need.

The doctors will always be there. Their processes are becoming more sophisticated and much more difficult to detect. It will end when people are no longer willing to pay huge money over sheet for a toner.

The only difference between the past toner threads and the present toner threads is how close to home it hits. Do you think for one minute that it's impossible for a dishonest dealer to infiltrate this forum?

But in the end, this will be forgotten. People will continue to collect what they like, and life will go on.

Solutions? I honestly don't think there will be a solid solution. Coins can and will be AT'd in or out of the holder. Maybe a disclosure strip placed inside the holder that will change color when exposed to any chemical that could be used to induce toning? That would mean hermtically sealing a coin in a benign atmosphere such as nitrogen, argon, etc. Will the TPG's take that step? Are collectors willing to PAY for the extra step? I can't speak for EVERYONE, but I know I wouldn't. But, that may be the only airtight (no pun intended...okay...pun intended) solution.

Just my eversohumble opinion.

Cheers,

Bob

dizzyfoxx · August 29, 2006 3:23AM

<<

>>

Myqqy · August 29, 2006 4:33AM

In my mind MOC has commited a Capital Numismatic Crime. The penalty is expulsion from the hobby and simply putting this behind us is not acceptable. I will continue to beat the dead horse years from now. It is the apathy surrounding the doctors that allow them to thrive.

ms70 · August 29, 2006 4:37AM

That's it, I'm calling PEDA.

People for the Ethical treatment of DEAD Animals.....

How much longer will it go on?

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