Maybe the current hot topic puts to rest the notion that coin docs get rich doing it?
pharmer
Posts: 8,355 ✭
The examples given don't seem to indicate much profit being made. So the oft-given excuses for no one wanting to out the docs or the methods used being the huge money being made seem harder to believe.
The implications of the prevaricators is that the really monster toners are being created artificially. Nah, don't buy it. The examples shown the last couple days are iffy to begin with, certainly not worth big bucks.
So can we dispense with the big money excuse and get some straight answers as to who, and how? Seems it would benefit collectors.
The implications of the prevaricators is that the really monster toners are being created artificially. Nah, don't buy it. The examples shown the last couple days are iffy to begin with, certainly not worth big bucks.
So can we dispense with the big money excuse and get some straight answers as to who, and how? Seems it would benefit collectors.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
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Anyway, no big bucks as far as I can see. Collectors would be well served to know, at the very least, how it's being done, so they can buy or not in an informed manner.
It's been a verboten topic here for too long, with flimsy excuses. I think the info will do two things: first, inform collectors, arming them with knowledge. Second, it will show that the methods used cannot produce monster toners, using the coin in rob790's thread as an example. Just toning of some sort, certainly not worth big bucks.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Coin doctoring is hugely profitable, or else you wouldn't have this issue come up to begin with. An increasing number of doctored coins are being slabbed in first world holders. Didn't you read the thread re Anaconda's AT'd Peace $ or Laura's puttied gold coin. We're not talking chump change, my friend.
Also, can you please explain why so many monster, rim-toned late date Capped Bust Halves have "come out of the closet" in the last year or two. Coins that old don't have this kind of toning. How did it get there? Well, the owners of the coin didn't get a gift from the tooth fairy, nor did they take them on pilgrimage to Mecca, or to the shrine at Nossa Senhora de Fátima.
Can you explain the lasered gold? By the time people read about this stuff here, the disease is all over the place. You can acknowledge the problem and try to deal with it, or you can be at a beach, wondering why the water went so far out to sea, waiting for the tsumani to sweep you away.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Capiche?
Want my $100? Sounds like you know something or someone.
Say, how do you think the coin that started the big thread was done?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Keep whistling if you want. Ownership adds a point. An entire collection can make one blind. Expert dealers and top graders have been fooled. Do you think you are immune? Like I said, keep whistling. My opinion is that the expert doctors are raking it in and passing their coins. Some coins are marginal, some are obviously bad, some are close enough that most will be fooled.
Show me your examples! Just one.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
There are simple too many toned coins showing up in holders during the past year or two. Only a naive person would think these coins have been held back all these many years. The most likely conclusion is that these coins are being made. I think the Battle Creek Morgan auction was the starting gun. The doctors saw the huge profits and got to work.
My opinion is that anyone paying huge premiums for toners in series that are not known for toners is rolling the dice at this point. The market is evolving and may reject these coins at some point. If the market does not, the doctors will keep making them and the supply will go up. Either way, the buyer is taking a big risk if paying a big premium.
<< <i>See, that's what I keep getting, instead of examples. Who's whistling?
Show me your examples! Just one. >>
The two high profile examples are the Taco Bell napkin coin, and the AT Peace dollar that traded for a huge amount of money to a dealer. These are not the specific toning pattern you are talking about, so I guess you can keep whistling.
<< <i>I suspect that the most profitable way to doctor coins is not to add color to add a color premium but to take 58's and make the 62+'s This would involve hiding points of wear. Also PR64 coins with a very minimal amount of hairlines or darkly toned are frequently doctored and made into PR65's and PR66's. Color? Ppppht! Who cares? When there are opportunities to make 10's of thousands on 2 and 3 pt. upgrades, that's where the doctors play. >>
I might agree except the supply of proof coins is relatively small, and the buyers usually extremely knowledgeable. For toners, the supply is large and readily available, and if the buyers often place too much trust in the grading company. The other factor for proofs is that if it a rare coin, it can be traced as there are not many coins. Being anonymous for a doctor is like keeping the secret identity for a super hero.
<< <i>That $100 bounty is unfortunately lunch money for an expert doctor, not even enough to pay their expenses for a day. So I doubt you'll get any takers. A few types of toning seem very difficult to reproduce. However, there are plenty of attractive natural looking patterns that are being passed and selling for 2x to 5x premiums.
There are simple too many toned coins showing up in holders during the past year or two. Only a naive person would think these coins have been held back all these many years. The most likely conclusion is that these coins are being made. I think the Battle Creek Morgan auction was the starting gun. The doctors saw the huge profits and got to work.
My opinion is that anyone paying huge premiums for toners in series that are not known for toners is rolling the dice at this point. The market is evolving and may reject these coins at some point. If the market does not, the doctors will keep making them and the supply will go up. Either way, the buyer is taking a big risk if paying a big premium. >>
Point taken about types of toning and some being harder than others. This is what I'm talking about being impossible to create artificially (and if someone gets irritated that I say impossible, maybe they'll show me one
Monochromic coins, sure, that would be easy. Big bucks? Nah. See, I got started on this quest because of some folks here bragging on the coin docs abilities. I haven't seen it yet. The peace is not an example, it don't cut the mustard as far as my eye goes, sorry.
Now, the best example i've seen yet sold last night, a banded rainbow ngc Morgan that went fairly high, but didn't get the number it would have if the toning breaks between the bands were not so dramatic, almost straight lines, no transition area where one color fades and other starts to grow. I'm sure quite a few saw the coin I'm talking about. Had someone given that to me as an example, they would be $100 richer. So, I'll give it to me.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
The problem is with TPG's that establish such coins as legitimate, and thereby appraising such coins. That's right -- appraise. I've been saying for years that TPG's don't grade coins, they establish a market value for them. Their numerical attribution has a directly correlated market price. The sheer fact that it's in a Class A TPG holder in itself elevates the coin to a different pricing tier.
A toned coin not in a holder -- $50. A toned coin in a Class A TPG holder -- priceless! Why, because when a person buys the coin in a Class A TPG holder they are buying the opinion of someone other than who is selling the coin. Same holds true for grade. This is where it gets fun --
- If the coin is in a holder and they review it, "we have no problem with the coin at the given grade"
- You crack it out and send it in again -- BB for AT or much lower grade
See, it's not the coin or the doctors of the coin that create issues, it's that people (not the ones here, but the 99.9% of the masses not here) value coins purely because they are in a Class A holder.
The burden of proof is not on the masses, but on the few that are in the business of appraising numismatic material on which the entire pricing model is predicated.
One can argue my assertion, but it is what it is.
<< <i>I suspect that the most profitable way to doctor coins is not to add color to add a color premium but to take 58's and make the 62+'s This would involve hiding points of wear. Also PR64 coins with a very minimal amount of hairlines or darkly toned are frequently doctored and made into PR65's and PR66's. Color? Ppppht! Who cares? When there are opportunities to make 10's of thousands on 2 and 3 pt. upgrades, that's where the doctors play. >>
Thats exactly correct.Also collectors who dont know coins should not buy before learning about them.
There have been several before and after images posted of Proof Indian cents, to which something was done and which showed dramatic changes in color (and in some cases grade). In a number of instances the price changed/escalated dramatically, as well.
<< <i>The problem is not in the fact that coin doctors exist. One can do whatever one wants to a coin he or she owns.
The problem is with TPG's that establish such coins as legitimate, and thereby appraising such coins. That's right -- appraise. I've been saying for years that TPG's don't grade coins, they establish a market value for them. Their numerical attribution has a directly correlated market price. The sheer fact that it's in a Class A TPG holder in itself elevates the coin to a different pricing tier.
A toned coin not in a holder -- $50. A toned coin in a Class A TPG holder -- priceless! Why, because when a person buys the coin in a Class A TPG holder they are buying the opinion of someone other than who is selling the coin. Same holds true for grade. This is where it gets fun --
- If the coin is in a holder and they review it, "we have no problem with the coin at the given grade"
- You crack it out and send it in again -- BB for AT or much lower grade
See, it's not the coin or the doctors of the coin that create issues, it's that people (not the ones here, but the 99.9% of the masses not here) value coins purely because they are in a Class A holder.
The burden of proof is not on the masses, but on the few that are in the business of appraising numismatic material on which the entire pricing model is predicated.
One can argue my assertion, but it is what it is. >>
Can't argue, it's a well thought out presentation.
I would only differ on the "priceless" thing, which is the point of my initial post. The coin in question ws $89 to start with, might have been $50 per your example if raw, but wouldn't have sold for more than $200 IMO.
And the infamous Peace mentioned above is a rare bird for the price it went for a couple times. So back to my point, I really don't see the big bucks facade that is put up to excuse not outing docs and their methods. Small potatos until someone proves WITH EXAMPLES (for the umpteenth time!) otherwise.
Small time crooks who shouldn't be protected in my opinion. Prove me wrong! But with IMAGES, not ESSAYS
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
At the ANA pre-show, Adrian and I were offered a Pan-Pac Round in NGC MS64. It was a beautiful coin. WTCG saw it (I believe). It had just a tad bit of skin in the left of the obverse and a very very very very (can't emphasize it enough) very very light grazing about a centimeter long which could only be seen in the right angle of light underneath the skin in the left obverse field. This is why I felt it was an MS64 in addition to some light white crud in near the lettering on part of the reverse that wasn't noticable until someone pointed it out. I sent the coin in for regrade and just as I figured, it came back the same grade. We then sold the coin for an honest markup to someone at the ANA show on the first day. On the 3rd day, a dealer comes up to us with a Pan Pac Round in NGC MS65 and a PCGS MS65 Octagonal. We wanted to pick up a pair for inventory so we looked these over carefully. After some examination of the NGC MS65, we came to the conclusion that it was the exact same coin as the MS64 we owned at that show except the original skin was gone, the grazing was way more visible now, and the white crud around some of the letters on the reverse had vanished. Someone doctored it up and made nearly 40k! on that upgrade. I'm not saying that the coin didn't deserve to be in an MS65 holder, just the fact that it wasn't put into an MS65 until after it had been "messed with". NGC awarded them with an MS65 for doctoring the piece (not harshly but nonetheless cleaned up). So they in-fact handed out an upgrade for a coin that was less-original. This seems to be where doctors are, not toning coins to add a color premium. Hell, someone made a straight 40k on that one upgrade at the show. I wonder how many more they managed to get upgraded by doctoring them as well.
Hell, $250 to $1000 premiums for color? It's easier to simply doctor coins to get them upgraded and score the big bux that way. Try $2000 - $50,000+.
The priceless thing was obvioulsy my failed attempt at humor
mdg, I got it, I just quibbled because certain folks, and they know who they are, keep saying the docs are getting rich, and at $200 a coin, they have to be doing thousands a year, which would exceed the total of slabbed toners sold in all venues, I imagine.
All of which is to say I totally disbelieve the claims of coin doc riches, and think the situation in the big thread and the numbers given are the norm. Small numbers, small crooks. Being done, but in no way the big boogey man the "experts" claim.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<<See, that's what I keep getting, instead of examples. >>
From a previous thread, a coin with before and after images, which went from $488 to $6325:
<< <i>Since Laura and others have now made public reference to the 1893 proof Indian Cent (and I commend Laura for not trying to keep it hush-hush), here, for your viewing pleasure, are "before and after" images of that coin. By the way, I seriously doubt that the dramatic color change was due to lacquer having been removed from the coin's surfaces.
Before (Heritage lot #5249 from their Jan 2005 sale at $488.75):
After (Heritage lot #458 from their April 2006 sale at $6325. That is not a typo - the coin went from $488 to $6325!):
Also, whether or not one accepts Mr. Snow's explanation regarding how some of these coins changed in color - frankly, it doesn't work for me, though I know and admit I'm often wrong - I think it is important that I repeat something I mentioned earlier in this thread:
<<Unfortunately/sadly, recently I have seen numerous "before and after" images of other Proof copper coins. Those coins did not all have lacquer (or any other type of coating on them) so their dramatic color changes were not due merely to the scenarios you mentioned. Additionally, a number of them saw hefty grade increases too. Those that I have been made aware of probably constitute only a tiny fraction of them, too.
Other factors are clearly at play, magically turning rather undesirable $100 to $300 items into four figure "treasures". In my view, something is very wrong here, and the fact that it is being done on a large scale doesn't excuse it.>> >>
<< <i>Mark: I see no conclusive evidence that anything at all was done to that IHC. >>
Bruce, it depends upon how you define "conclusive evidence". That was but one, of several examples which were shown with before and after images. I viewed some of the other coins in person, both before AND after, and they were clearly very different looking after the fact.
<< <i>
<< <i>Mark: I see no conclusive evidence that anything at all was done to that IHC. >>
Bruce, it depends upon how you define "conclusive evidence". That was but one, of several examples which were shown with before and after images. I viewed some of the other coins in person, both before AND after, and they were clearly very different looking after the fact. >>
What I meant was that I find the respective images of that particular coin to be within margin of error at Heritage. No substitute for an 'in person' examination, tho.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Mark: I see no conclusive evidence that anything at all was done to that IHC. >>
Bruce, it depends upon how you define "conclusive evidence". That was but one, of several examples which were shown with before and after images. I viewed some of the other coins in person, both before AND after, and they were clearly very different looking after the fact. >>
What I meant was that I find the respective images of that particular coin to be within margin of error at Heritage. No substitute for an 'in person' examination, tho. >>
Agreed, Bruce. I posted that one instead of others, as it illustrated a more significant before and after price too.
The last time I went off on this rant, Russ had a couple pretty good images, but I wasn't convinced they were AT at the time. Darn, I wish I had that Morgan from last night on my watch list so I would still have the images.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Has anyone ever considered that sometimes coins busted out of holders can rapidly tone? One time I had a Merc that was in an OGH holder and it was mostly white. I felt it was somewhat undergraded and busted it out. Then I got busy with work and wasn't able to send in for grading for almost 2 months. When I went back to the coin in the flip to label it, etc., it was totally toned around the edges front and back. It looked killer! I did absolutely nothing to it other than put it in to a Safe Flip and had it sit on my bookshelf for 2 months.
The coin did grade higher (from 64FB to 66FB), and looked completely different. If someone was to see the transformation, would I be accused of doctoring the coin? I did nothing other than bust it out of the holder and put it in to a Safe Flip. All I'm saying is that it is true people "work" coins, but not always. We should keep this in mind prior to creating lynch mob mentalities.
And even if someone did work the coin, is working a coin illegal? If it is illegal (or becomes illegal), then that's different. Meanwhile, if a doctor doctors a coin and Class A TPG slabs the coin, kudos to the doctor. If no one saw the before picture, no one would know. I think knowing the before and after, and seeing the profits made by such activity is a source of jealousy more than principal. Ooopss, now I'm in trouble
This is likened to looking at a fit and/or athletic male or female. We think people are born that look like that -- they're not. But we don't think much of these people other than that their normal people. It is only when you see a guy or gal in their "before" picture looking 30 pounds heavier do you begin to change your opinion of the same person. "Oh she got this done/that done!"...."he must be taken drugs or steroids"...or nicely, "way to go...I'm proud of what you did". Meanwhile, most people secretely think "I wish I could do that".
Lighten up...it is what it is. If you like a coin, and like how it looks, buy it! If you don't, then don't buy it. If you think a Class A TPG slab is an insurance policy, then go with the flow. If you don't put much weight on the Class A TPG slab, that's fine also. This is coin collecting -- buy what you like, and pass on the rest. Let's not judge others -- no one is beyond reproach.
what would benefit collectors is for everyone to stop shrinking away whenever something blatant like the 1904-O comes along. i know i come across as harsh sometimes and many view me as a pariah of sorts for my outspoken comments, but in the end the only way to get to the truth is to allow no avenue of escape and no recourse but full disclosure in these things. all the good intentions by individuals generally shake out as being for their own good and that of whoever they deem to tell the "whole story" to while they boldly state that they are concerned for the hobby. what a load of crap.
name the name when you know and stop with the lame excuses. this last incident and the professed ignorance strains the credulity of even the staunchest believer in the goodness of human nature. there have been recent replies within threads which pertain to grayness. this incident sn't one of them.
Yes, but in the case of the proof Indian cents I mentioned, the person who bought and later sold them has admitted to treating them with MS70. The results speak for themselves through before and after images. And, as already noted, I saw a number of them in person. Sadly, I think that was likely just a drop in a huge bucket of what transpires in our industry.