Can a coin be MS-70 ???
lonelyp
Posts: 1,634
WITHOUT PCGS, or NGC, saying it is??
(Old man) Look I had a lovely supper, and all I said to my wife was, “That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah”.
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
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But one man's 70 is another man's 69 (or lower). So the opinions that count in the marketplace are those of the most respected grading services, which happen to be PCGS and NGC.
Some folks do seem to be of the opinion that there is no such thing as a 70. I guess it depends on how harsh and microscopic one's scrutiny is.
I personally will not grade a coin higher than 65, preferring to leave the assignment of supergrade status to the grading services. In the case of some raw coins that I have had in my inventory that I knew were MS67 or better, I just called them "MS65+" or "MS65++", and left it at that. When you get up into the supergrades above MS65, you're in the realm of plastic.
<< <i>WITHOUT PCGS, or NGC, saying it is?? >>
of course, just ask the people that sell the slabbed ones.....
Good question?
Lordmarcovan,
Thank you for the informative reply. And fast too.
Goose3,
Third world slabbed 70s are raw.
One of the reasons I ask the question.
PZ
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Easy cowboy.
Not me don't believe in it.
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
On the other hand, here's an excerpt from an article that I found interesting, and gives a historical perspective on the Sheldon scale.
"Many of those familiar with the Sheldon grading system (Numbers I through 70) will be surprised to learn that Dr. Sheldon's system was originally designed to apply only to copper coinage. Mint state grading (MS-60,65 and 70) applied mostly to color. A brown uncirculated coin was MS-60, a red and brown coin was MS-65, and a full red large cent was MS-70. Bagmarks, strike, lustre and eye-appeal were far less crucial to the grade.
Even more interesting was Dr. Sheldon's attempt to relate grade to value. When he devised his system in the late 1940's, it was his intention that anyone would be able to assign a value to any grade of a particular coin merely by multiplying its base or "basal" value by the numerical grade. (The Sheldon system did provide an additional premium if a coin was among the finest of its kind. However, this wouldn't make a significant difference when dealing with common varieties). Thus, a Mint State-70 coin would, in theory, have been priced at exactly three and one half times the price of a VERY FINE-20 coin, Of course this system seems Particularly bizarre in light of today's pricing structure. Now a MINT STATE-65 example of a common date large cent might bring over a hundred times the price of a VERY FINE coin.
Actually, the Sheldon system did not gain any acceptance outside of the large cent collectors' community until the early 1970's. When the system was first introduced to Morgan and Peace silver dollars, the intention was for MS-60 to refer to a mint state coin with normal to heavy bagmarks. MS-65 described an above average mint state coin with fewer than normal bagmarks, and an MS-70 was an exceptional uncirculated coin, which might fall somewhere close to today's MS-65 grade. In fact, I remember Paramount International Coin Corporation (see footnote #2), at that time one of America's largest and most respected dealers in U.S. coins, running several full page Coin World and Numismatic News advertisements using the Sheldon scale. These ads listed EVERY DATE of Morgan and Peace Dollars in MINT STATE-65, and the vast majority of dates in MINT STATE-70 grade."
The entire essay is here, for those who are interested in a little light reading.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Grading is subjective, prone to error and abuse by less than reputable individuals and grading companies. We've all seen coins graded too high and coins graded too low, even by PCGS. Still, in this 'mail-order' world we live in, it is an essential service that helps both buyers and sellers complete transactions satisfactory to both parties. If I buy an MS60 coin, I expect it will be pretty beaten up. If I ever buy an MS70 coin, I expect it will be near perfect (but not absolutely flawless).
If you can count flaws that can only be viewed at 100x and you believe that MS70 is reserved for only perfect coins, then MS70 is a one in a billion coin.
I personally like the idea of MS70 representing a range for coins that are as near perfect as reasonably possible. If MS70 is not possible, then what is the point of having the grade?
KR
If we look back at our coinage we can say 100 years ago it was in the MS range and 50 years ago it was 65-67 range.In todays coinage I would put it at MS-69 the best not MS-70.Surely ..to be the best of the best ..there can be Only One.......!!
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
the coin is perfect
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
But being practical, if I cannot find a flow on your coin using a 5X glass after 10 minutes of searching, I'll concede an MS70 to you.
But it's yet to happen. I do not consider a minor mint made defect
(such as a minor strike imperfection) by itself to hold a coin back from being MS70. You show me perfect surfaces under extended 5X magnification then I'm pretty impressed. Now given the above, I'm not interested in buying a MS70 anything due to the absurd premium associated with them. MS68 is about as high as I've ever really seen on a classic coin.
roadrunner
"A 70-coin is one in flawless Mint State, exactly as it left the dies, with perfect mint color and without a blemish or nick."
(Penny Whimsy. Durst reprint of 1990. p.30)
<< <i>MS70 is nirvana... The pinnacle... Absolute perfection - by today's interpretation.
>>
MS 70??
A bunch of hype for modern crap IMO!
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
<< <i>WITHOUT PCGS, or NGC, saying it is?? >>
Of course it can DUH!! It would have to be a 70 BEFORE they got it if they are going to give it after they look at it. What you are confusing here is name recognition. Most of the folks who dabble in coins on eBay know of PCGS and that they are or are supposed to be experts at what they do. You and I mite be better than anyone at PCGS but if only 3 people in the world know it than our opinion doesn't mean chit to those on eBay cuz none of them ever heard of us. Those folks will value the PCGS opinion over ours most of the time. So I guess it depends on your perception of the credibility of the person/persons giving the grade.
<< <i> Can a coin be MS-70 ??? >>
Sure.
Just check ebay.
<< <i>No, 70 does not exist. Neither does the easter bunny.... >>
Funny you should say that........
<< <i>
<< <i>WITHOUT PCGS, or NGC, saying it is?? >>
Of course it can DUH!! It would have to be a 70 BEFORE they got it if they are going to give it after they look at it. What you are confusing here is name recognition. Most of the folks who dabble in coins on eBay know of PCGS and that they are or are supposed to be experts at what they do. You and I mite be better than anyone at PCGS but if only 3 people in the world know it than our opinion doesn't mean chit to those on eBay cuz none of them ever heard of us. Those folks will value the PCGS opinion over ours most of the time. So I guess it depends on your perception of the credibility of the person/persons giving the grade. >>
Yes,
this is what I mean. What I think is perfect, and what YOU think is perfect, can be different. So we need the TPG to agree with us, to make it so. And even then if the graders had a bad lunch, our 70 might get 69, or even 68.
For us novice collectors, the third tier TPGs that contaminate the market with slabs marked 70, or even 69, 68. Can cost us big time, before we ever read this, or another forum. And find out about them. Believe me I know, I can write anything on a 2 x 2, and it wouldn't matter in the least to you. I don't pretend to be a good grader. Nor do I pay big premiums for coins in ANY slabs. It's good that my collecting is for ME. And I'm not super picky. I mean I want nice examples, YES, but perfection, is not expected.
pz
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
Remember many coin dealers sell used cars.
No.
Scientifically, it is impossible to have perfection. Time, atmosphere, temperature all have a profound impact on coins (tarnish, toning, pitting, touch, nicks, and essentially "IMPERFECTIONS" are the NORM. ALL coins CHANGE and NEVER maintain what someone saw in a previous era.
This whole concept of MS70 defies intelligence. Subjectivity is a cop out and it always will be. It is an admission of not being able to establish a proper standard.
besides, 69.9 plus or minus a
I vote we go on the 99 point scale.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>But one man's 70 is another man's 69 (or lower).
Easy cowboy.
D'oh. Left myself wide open for that one.
<< <i>What I think is perfect, and what YOU think is perfect, can be different. So we need the TPG to agree with us, to make it so. And even then if the graders had a bad lunch, our 70 might get 69, or even 68. >>
Yep. That pretty much covers it. You can debate all day and all week over whether a 70 "exists" or not. Perfection is in the eye (or loupe, or microscope) of the beholder. If you are of the "70 doesn't exist" clan, you WILL find something wrong to knock it down a point or two.
To make it "exist", in the marketplace, anyway, one needs the plastic. Preferably top-tier plastic. It's all about perception. The "better" your brand of plastic is perceived to be, the "better" your "70" will be.
Sorta sounds like smoke-n'-mirrors, and to a degree, it is, but there you have it.