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Maybe I'm an academic snob, but YOU could be a "wannabe" COLLECTOR!!!
saintguru
Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭
I know my coins. I know how to grade them, what to look for, what the characteristics are for every date, etc. I know what coins are worth, either by the guides, or more importantly, what I "know" them to be worth. I say that because there is NO guide. I have probably paid 10-20-30% OVER any sheet for big dates and knew that I was getting a great coin at a good price. A true collector knows what coins simply can't be found, yet the price guides treat them like they are pocket change. (example: 3 years ago the 1908-S Saint was quoted on the Grey sheet at like 24K. I spent years looking for a 64, let alone a 65. I found a 65 from a wannabe. His price was 42K. I asked him to send the coin so I could see it. It was gorgeous and I paid him 40K, no questions, no chiseling! I knew that coin was worth at least that much, butthere wasn't a single reported sale for years.)
What do I care if a "wannabe", "wallabee" or "hootchie-coo" has a coin that I want. It's my decision, and if I'm not educated enough, then shame on me. I'll buy a good coin from anyone with 'some' credentials! I bought one of my best coins three years ago from a real wannabe, who takes out ads in Coin World with other people's coins. I got the coin, and it was a score!
So if the case against wannabes is to protect the uninformed, I say GET INFORMED. This hobby has lost the intellectual diligence that it ionce had. It's been made too easy with slabbing, online instant archives, and all the info available. Can many of the under 40 crowd even imagine what it was like in the 60's when you barely had any references to go by other than a few cheesy publications and the dealer's word!
UNC, CHOICE UNC, GEM UNC,...geez, it was like ordering a steak medium-rare and getting it done differently at every restaurant. And half the low-end dealers were lying their asses off, anyway.
If you educate yourself in what you collect, know your boundaries, and buy NOTHING you don't see first, then I think the issue is way overblown.
The last thing we need is "regulation".
so be care what you wish for, you might get it. 
Collecting coins used to be like a scavenger hunt, and it was fun. Admittedly, now we are playing with much more expensive coins, but as in all avenues of business, Caveat Emptor with a good deal of common sense and self-education.
Capece??
What do I care if a "wannabe", "wallabee" or "hootchie-coo" has a coin that I want. It's my decision, and if I'm not educated enough, then shame on me. I'll buy a good coin from anyone with 'some' credentials! I bought one of my best coins three years ago from a real wannabe, who takes out ads in Coin World with other people's coins. I got the coin, and it was a score!
So if the case against wannabes is to protect the uninformed, I say GET INFORMED. This hobby has lost the intellectual diligence that it ionce had. It's been made too easy with slabbing, online instant archives, and all the info available. Can many of the under 40 crowd even imagine what it was like in the 60's when you barely had any references to go by other than a few cheesy publications and the dealer's word!
UNC, CHOICE UNC, GEM UNC,...geez, it was like ordering a steak medium-rare and getting it done differently at every restaurant. And half the low-end dealers were lying their asses off, anyway.
If you educate yourself in what you collect, know your boundaries, and buy NOTHING you don't see first, then I think the issue is way overblown.
The last thing we need is "regulation".
so be care what you wish for, you might get it. Collecting coins used to be like a scavenger hunt, and it was fun. Admittedly, now we are playing with much more expensive coins, but as in all avenues of business, Caveat Emptor with a good deal of common sense and self-education.
Capece??
0
Comments
Ray
Apparently, though there are those who spend gobs of money on coins without learning how to grade and putting their faith in the almighty plastic or the "trusted" dealer, wannabe or otherwise. Perhaps we should call them Wannabe collectors!!
Good point above...
<< <i>You got the snob part right.
Ray >>
Well that was just the first sentence. Read on. I got the rest right, I think, too.
Folks, if you are not yet savvy, then by all means stay with the big dealers until you learn the art of coins. Clearly this is not for all collectors, but it is a call to arms that too many people are NOT learning as much as they should and just diving into coins. We ALL have made mistakes in the early going! That's the learning curve. But the lessons should come near and dear and make you more conscious of what "not to do".
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
I think that a key point for collectors is that you MUST set a standard, AND a clear idea of consistency in the "look" you want. You can pass on a coin! You will find another. You may even find a better one than you buy, and swap for a few bucks to get a better one. I can't guess how many times I have done this. Sometimes 2 or 3 times on a particular date. Climb the wall of quality within a grade. Eventually you'll have nothing but beautiful coins, and the few extra bucks will pay off ten-fold. This is a sidetrack, but it's really important when you want to get it right from the start.
Good luck...and keep an eye out for wannabe's who need to be plucked of good stuff.
Could part of the issue be that some collectors are so anxious to get a coin that they buy the first one they find, blinded by their excitement?
Impatience is perhaps the worst enemy of the collector. Jumping in the pool before learn your series well enough to buy coins hurts more collectors than the TPGs, scumbag dealers, coin doctors, and other rip-off artists. Until you know your series, really know your series, it is best to seek help from the pros that do.
Most people who are not informed have consciously chosen not to work hard at their hobby. In fact, most would prefer to drop out than to make the effort to "get informed". Personally, I don't care what they do. It's their time, their money, their decision.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>So if the case against wannabes is to protect the uninformed, I say GET INFORMED.
Most people who are not informed have consciously chosen not to work hard at their hobby. In fact, most would prefer to drop out than to make the effort to "get informed". Personally, I don't care what they do. It's their time, their money, their decision. >>
So if they are just so detatched from common sense then getting ripped by a wannabe is probably just one in a long littany of things they will get ripped on. Maybe they have some Elvis memorabilia that the bougt on HSN too?
You'd be amazed at how many people there are , educated people ( some not so educated ) who recklessly spend money with people whose sold intentions seem to be ripping people like that off. The "pop boys" who know nothing about coins other than the pop reports sell millions of dollars of coins, many of which are maxed out to their customers at highly inflated prices, and even after the customer finds out he's been nailed, he STILL doesn't do a thing about it.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Laura should become a car salesman and shout out against wannabe care dealers. THAT would be meaningful.
True story: Went to a fellows house to look at his collection. He had "literature" from the "dealer" in New Jersey who essentially ripped him off for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Asked a colleague and I our opinion on the "literature" from this "coin dealer". What was the literature about you might ask? It was about how gold was not an "earthly" substance, that it comes from space and visitors from space brought it here ( I kid you not). They also had information on how to make spagetti sauce. I'm not making this up.
Ripped off for hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's just the losses.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>This hobby has lost the intellectual didligence >>
Russ, NCNE
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>it was like ordering a steak medium-rare and getting it done differently at every restaurant. >>
I hope EJs can nail MR 100% of the time.
<< <i>Tom - Let's hope that the money found a better home. >>
Well the coins have. Hopefully the proceeds went into a CD or something similar.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i> You can pass on a coin! You will find another. You may even find a better one than you buy, and swap for a few bucks to get a better one. I can't guess how many times I have done this. Sometimes 2 or 3 times on a particular date. >>
Easy to do when you collect Saints.... they ain't rare!
I at least hope the sauce was good
<< <i>Cool, another thread about wannabes.
<< <i>This hobby has lost the intellectual didligence >>
Russ, NCNE >>
Not exactly Russ. It's about uneducated or less than knowledgeable collectors. THAT'S quite a 180 from the typical threads. Let the BUYER beware. You can't get rid of the sellers, so it's like innoculating yourself against smallcox.
So your parents were Jehovah's Witnesses, eh?
<< <i>
<< <i>Cool, another thread about wannabes.
<< <i>This hobby has lost the intellectual didligence >>
Russ, NCNE >>
Not exactly Russ. It's about uneducated or less than knowledgeable collectors. THAT'S quite a 180 from the typical threads. Let the BUYER beware. You can't get rid of the sellers, so it's like innoculating yourself against smallcox. >>
I'm all for those type of inoculations.......you one meds this AM?
On the other hand...
How do you know the big dealers know what they say they know? You were fortunate...you got hooked up with Duckor/Akers crowd, and they taught you what you needed to know. What if you ended up with the wrong crowd, the posers, and there was no way for you to tell the difference?
I had Akers book on my desk and referred to it every day...
Those guys gave me guidance on building a set with consistency and quality. They never taught me "the eye" because I was buying all my own coins with dealers who knew what I wanted that I was easy to deal with when the right stuff came around. Their lessons were more about "design" and not so much about the technicals. I did show them coins at shows and had them critique them. And I had a few panned. I simply replaced the few that got thumbs down.
Successful collecting is absolutely correlated to the due diligence and education of the collector. As in any collecting, whether it's art, antiques or rare books, if you don't do your homework you are at a terrible disadvantage. That's all I'm saying.
I'm sick of the air raid sires about wannabe dealers. It's time for some people to step up to the plate and realize that they are acting like wannabe collectors.
That's a better "public service" that the other approach, with the addition of self-promotion attatched.
I proceeded to educate myself, and low and behold, I made money.
Wannabes or not, if you know your coins, you'll do well.
I find wannabes the best folks to buy from. They think they know everything because their friends deal with the big boys. It's not osmosis (thanks God)
Even the big boys miss things sometimes, and isn't that why we are all in this....the hunt for something rare!!!
Great post!!!
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Very good advice. It is all about the coins, the source is irrelevant if you have knowledge. There are few specialists in the several series of coins I collect, I would rather find the coins before they make their way to the specialists. >>
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>Could part of the issue be that some collectors are so anxious to get a coin that they buy the first one they find, blinded by their excitement? I've had to bite my lip many times, passing on a coin I badly needed because it was not consistent with the standard I set for myself.
I think that a key point for collectors is that you MUST set a standard, AND a clear idea of consistency in the "look" you want. You can pass on a coin! You will find another. You may even find a better one than you buy, and swap for a few bucks to get a better one. I can't guess how many times I have done this. Sometimes 2 or 3 times on a particular date. Climb the wall of quality within a grade. Eventually you'll have niothing but beautiful coins, and the few extra bucks will pay of ten-fold. This is a sidetrack, but it's really important when you want to get it right from the start.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
If you educate yourself in what you collect, know your boundaries and buy NOTHING you don't see first then I think the issue is way overblown.
Have fun....Mike
"Sell them all and get 10 MS65 good dates! Forget about the common dats and concentrate on GEM good dates (not the TOUGHEST) first. Then once you have a good start you can fill in the easy stuff any time."
I didn't sell.
"Only buy coins that you love. Never settle for a filler. It will stick out like the mediocrity that it is. No compromising. If you have to go without a date, get some others. And always get coins that are natural surfaced."
Those are all Duckor/Akerisms, and I'll take his lessons any day, all day!!
Anyway, that's the guidance I got from two great mentors. You have to learn to develope an eye. I didn't have big brother buy my coins for me, but once I got into the GEM grades, good coins found me. My dealers all got the message that I wanted top stuff and for that I would pay a fair price. And I never hesitated to pay-up when I knew a coin was under valued or the sheets were too low. Those are the tried and true secrets of building a great set of coins...if that's your goal.
I was ready to pull the plug reading all of the whiners and drama queens boo hoo'ing over nothing.
<< <i>Jay -- simply the best post on the forum today! >>
And that ain't saying much.
<< <i>
<< <i>Jay -- simply the best post on the forum today! >>
And that ain't saying much.
Can't you TELL when you're being ignored?
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Even for someone of modest means like myself can live by these words.....
I am of the camp that believes that completion is not the final goal. Some think that's a total annulment of the hobby. I would rather have all highest grade coins, within my budget, that I can get, and simply pass on dates like the 1927-D Saint. ("pass" is a funny way of putting it).
If you have a set of MS65+ coins and buy the one or two ultra rare keys iAU58 what does that say? FILLERS. They won't sell for any kind of premium, as your pristine set of hard worked GEMS will. So I have passed on some dates that would cost $150K-200K in MS64...some are higher, and be perfectly pleased with a 90% completed set that I have sharpened continually. I have had 3 1924-S MS64's! I finally got the Duckor./Akers coin, which is so amazingkly deep apricot in color...and that only happened because SD bought the Morse MS65 of which there are only 2! That's my advice, again. LATERAL upgrading costs very llittle, but one by one you will find that your coins are all pushing against the higher grade, and even though it's unlikely that you will get them upgraded, you WILL get a significant premium if and when you sell them. People definately pay for quality. Don' believe that a great coin is only as good as it's holder. A POS in a MS64 will sell for garbage money, but a PQ MS64 couls easily sell for 50% more than a typical coin.
<< <i>Can't you TELL when you're being ignored?
Hmmmmm - looks like that squirrel got the smallcox innoculation.....
OOOPS.