I think it would be pretty hard to detect consistently, and, with absolutely no disrespect intended toward supercarcoins, I feel ill for the hobby when a question like this needs to be asked on a coin forum.
Well, its a question that needs to be asked...Frankly, if the strike is degraded anough in the laser cut area, I would think that those lines would stand out like a cat at a dog show!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>I think it would be pretty hard to detect consistently, and, with absolutely no disrespect intended toward supercarcoins, I feel ill for the hobby when a question like this needs to be asked on a coin forum. >>
Since I refuse to pay for silly strike designations, it doesn't bother me in the least.
<< <i>Well, its a question that needs to be asked...Frankly, if the strike is degraded anough in the laser cut area, I would think that those lines would stand out like a cat at a dog show! >>
He's absolutely right, they would. And since the bell lines are struck into the coin, the displaced metal raises up slightly around the lines as well. A laser cut line would have enough of a different look to it that attention would certainly be drawn.
<< <i>"Since I refuse to pay for silly strike designations, it doesn't bother me in the least" >>
I'm not a great fan of these designations either, but I think anything that has the potential to shake collector confidence should concern you as a collector and dealer signficantly.
<< <i>Well, its a question that needs to be asked...Frankly, if the strike is degraded anough in the laser cut area, I would think that those lines would stand out like a cat at a dog show! >>
He's absolutely right, they would. And since the bell lines are struck into the coin, the displaced metal raises up slightly around the lines as well. A laser cut line would have enough of a different look to it that attention would certainly be drawn. >>
Yeah, the metal doesn't cease to exist. Once it's been moved, it would have to be physically removed to not be noticed.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Can PCGS detect Laser cut Bell Lines on Franklins ?
Of course they can. Under a glass, the depressed separation between bell lines should be irregular and the metal should flow along the radial axes of the coin into the raised portions of each bell line. On a lasered coin, the separation will be more regular and the flow lines between bell lines will be obliterated. So if PCGS misses this, it's only because they didn't look close enough.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I work w/plasma cutters,you would have to try in an eye lab,the cost of even using the equipment may be prohibative,and not be cost efficient on a coin.(I do not collect full steps nor full bell).But,it is an interesting subject and worth looking into.
Now, in all fairness, I'd be surprised if there aren't some coins that have slipped through the cracks and I'll tell you where I think the risk is.
If a coin is 98% FBL or FB or FS or FT or FH, and if the only thing keeping the coin from making the big money designation is a tiny bit of missing definition in one tiny spot, then a laser CAN be used to provide that tiny bit of definition on that tiny spot. To detect the alteration, one would need to closely study every bit of every line of separation. Now, it's reasonable to assume that if the doctor covers his tracks most people will miss the alteration, including TPG experts. So some coins probably are slipping through the cracks. No pun intended.
Now, here's the interesting thing, and it brings us full circle. The only reason any of this is an issue is that the market irrationally values the 100% coin far higher than the 98% coin, and there are two reasons this happens. First, the TPGs have an irrational binary method of strike designation, e.g., FBL or not. And second, and most disturbingly, most buyers are too highly influenced by third party plastic and price guides.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Well, its a question that needs to be asked...Frankly, if the strike is degraded anough in the laser cut area, I would think that those lines would stand out like a cat at a dog show! >>
He's absolutely right, they would. And since the bell lines are struck into the coin, the displaced metal raises up slightly around the lines as well. A laser cut line would have enough of a different look to it that attention would certainly be drawn. >>
Yeah, the metal doesn't cease to exist. Once it's been moved, it would have to be physically removed to not be noticed. >>
Yes, the metal is vaporized. It ceases to exist on the coin. It is not moved. It is burnt out completely.
Jonathan
I have been a collector for over mumbly-five years. I learn something new every day.
It's threads like this and articles in Coin World about the grading practices of PCGS and NGC (the big boys get treated better than the little old mes and yous) that make me glad I sold my small coin collection. When what's raw is probably fiddled with, and then the graders are suspect, novices like me don't stand a chance. At least, I'm smart enough to know I could spend years in the "hobby" and not learn all the ways a crook could steal from me. When I saw the graders are scammers, well... I still like reading the threads on the forum. And watching Coin Vault.
It's threads like this and articles in Coin World about the grading practices of PCGS and NGC (the big boys get treated better than the little old mes and yous) that make me glad I sold my small coin collection. When what's raw is probably fiddled with, and then the graders are suspect, novices like me don't stand a chance. At least, I'm smart enough to know I could spend years in the "hobby" and not learn all the ways a crook could steal from me. When I saw the graders are scammers, well... I still like reading the threads on the forum. And watching Coin Vault.
Codder - You don't have to collect wonder gems. Try a set of circ whatever next and don't worry about the stuff that's beyond you. Later, after you've learned to take care of yourself, you can leave the kiddie pool and swim with the sharks.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The only reason any of this is an issue is that the market irrationally values the 100% coin far higher than the 98% coin, and there are two reasons this happens. First, the TPGs have an irrational binary method of strike designation, e.g., FBL or not. And second, and most disturbingly, most buyers are too highly influenced by third party plastic and price guides.
These are the elements of numismatics that make me roll my eyes like this....
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
<< <i>Well, its a question that needs to be asked...Frankly, if the strike is degraded anough in the laser cut area, I would think that those lines would stand out like a cat at a dog show! >>
He's absolutely right, they would. And since the bell lines are struck into the coin, the displaced metal raises up slightly around the lines as well. A laser cut line would have enough of a different look to it that attention would certainly be drawn. >>
Yeah, the metal doesn't cease to exist. Once it's been moved, it would have to be physically removed to not be noticed. >>
Yes, the metal is vaporized. It ceases to exist on the coin. It is not moved. It is burnt out completely.
Jonathan >>
I don't understand. What about conservation of matter?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
vaporizing metal is feasable but the heat may tone the coin along the laser lines................if I worked in a medical practice that used a computer program to map out unwanted matter and the laser followed the program I would give it a whirl,to see if it could be done...............metal is interesting.
The formost theroy bridging Quantum mechanics and thermo-dynamics is the " String " theroy .
The smartist genius`s of our time state that in order for this theroy to work-
there must be 9 , or is it 11 : diffrent dimensions .
Supercar - Interesting thoughts, but I have a pertinent question. Was "Theroy" George Jetson's son's name and what does he have to do with lasered Franklins?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>...........so you sure it`s not being done then ............... >>
You seem sure it is done, so I'll assume you've seen or have a laser enhanced Franklin in a PCGS slab. I'll ask again: Do you have a pic? I'd be interested in seeing one.
Honestly though, I don't know why anyone would have to laser enhance the bell lines on a Franklin to get the designation from PCGS. I've seen plenty of PCGS FBL Franklins that were, in my opinion, not quite deserving of the designation. Perhaps they've tighted up recently?
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” — Benjamin Franklin
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
53 s frankies are looked at more carefully for full lines by PCGS, they would have to. Thats a big refund if they get it wrong. The time spent of this small population would be more then average I suspect and I think they would catch it. I am one Lazer short to experiment.
It's threads like this when it would be nice to have a PCGS grader chime in or even Ron or HRH. I don't expect them to spend their whole day on the boards, but their absence at times makes me wonder.
<< <i>Now, in all fairness, I'd be surprised if there aren't some coins that have slipped through the cracks and I'll tell you where I think the risk is.
If a coin is 98% FBL or FB or FS or FT or FH, and if the only thing keeping the coin from making the big money designation is a tiny bit of missing definition in one tiny spot, then a laser CAN be used to provide that tiny bit of definition on that tiny spot. To detect the alteration, one would need to closely study every bit of every line of separation. Now, it's reasonable to assume that if the doctor covers his tracks most people will miss the alteration, including TPG experts. So some coins probably are slipping through the cracks. No pun intended.
Now, here's the interesting thing, and it brings us full circle. The only reason any of this is an issue is that the market irrationally values the 100% coin far higher than the 98% coin, and there are two reasons this happens. First, the TPGs have an irrational binary method of strike designation, e.g., FBL or not. And second, and most disturbingly, most buyers are too highly influenced by third party plastic and price guides. >>
Did someone say, collect coins that are fully struck? Like an entire coin can be lasered to make it appear un-noticeably fully struck! HA! Away with all the attributes and usher in the one and only needed designation, "FS" meaning "FULL STRIKE"!
I say, laser away! I'd love to see it happen!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>Well, its a question that needs to be asked...Frankly, if the strike is degraded anough in the laser cut area, I would think that those lines would stand out like a cat at a dog show! >>
He's absolutely right, they would. And since the bell lines are struck into the coin, the displaced metal raises up slightly around the lines as well. A laser cut line would have enough of a different look to it that attention would certainly be drawn. >>
Actually, with a laser, the metal is disintegrated, not displaced. Poof! It's gone. I doubt anyone could tell the lasering had been done.
Jonathan
I have been a collector for over mumbly-five years. I learn something new every day.
Now, in all fairness, I'd be surprised if there aren't some coins that have slipped through the cracks and I'll tell you where I think the risk is.
If a coin is 98% FBL or FB or FS or FT or FH, and if the only thing keeping the coin from making the big money designation is a tiny bit of missing definition in one tiny spot, then a laser CAN be used to provide that tiny bit of definition on that tiny spot. To detect the alteration, one would need to closely study every bit of every line of separation. Now, it's reasonable to assume that if the doctor covers his tracks most people will miss the alteration, including TPG experts. So some coins probably are slipping through the cracks. No pun intended.
Now, here's the interesting thing, and it brings us full circle. The only reason any of this is an issue is that the market irrationally values the 100% coin far higher than the 98% coin, and there are two reasons this happens. First, the TPGs have an irrational binary method of strike designation, e.g., FBL or not. And second, and most disturbingly, most buyers are too highly influenced by third party plastic and price guides.
BTW, same irrational Binary Difference of whether to slab or not based on "market acceptable" damage or toning is silly. Slab them all, just include an opinion of "degree of originality" and then reap a resubmission party as everyone 1) first, gets a "degree of originality" rating in the first place, then 2) the lottery of "crack out" for a higher and higher rating.
Comments
Russ, NCNE
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I think it would be pretty hard to detect consistently, and, with absolutely no disrespect intended toward supercarcoins, I feel ill for the hobby when a question like this needs to be asked on a coin forum. >>
Since I refuse to pay for silly strike designations, it doesn't bother me in the least.
<< <i>Well, its a question that needs to be asked...Frankly, if the strike is degraded anough in the laser cut area, I would think that those lines would stand out like a cat at a dog show! >>
He's absolutely right, they would. And since the bell lines are struck into the coin, the displaced metal raises up slightly around the lines as well. A laser cut line would have enough of a different look to it that attention would certainly be drawn.
<< <i>"Since I refuse to pay for silly strike designations, it doesn't bother me in the least" >>
I'm not a great fan of these designations either, but I think anything that has the potential to shake collector confidence should concern you as a collector and dealer signficantly.
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, its a question that needs to be asked...Frankly, if the strike is degraded anough in the laser cut area, I would think that those lines would stand out like a cat at a dog show! >>
He's absolutely right, they would. And since the bell lines are struck into the coin, the displaced metal raises up slightly around the lines as well. A laser cut line would have enough of a different look to it that attention would certainly be drawn. >>
Yeah, the metal doesn't cease to exist. Once it's been moved, it would have to be physically removed to not be noticed.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Easy to say when you collect Trade Dollars.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Of course they can. Under a glass, the depressed separation between bell lines should be irregular and the metal should flow along the radial axes of the coin into the raised portions of each bell line. On a lasered coin, the separation will be more regular and the flow lines between bell lines will be obliterated. So if PCGS misses this, it's only because they didn't look close enough.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Probably more like 15-20 seconds on average, and that should be enough.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
you want flow line`s etched on ?
you want metal removed without a trace ?
.......or do you want to hide your head in the sand ?
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>Why doesn't someone try one and see? >>
Backing up his boasts isn't his style.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
I'll opt for the former. Show me.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
of "engraving" that can be done in metal with a laser....
Link
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
<< <i>What is next---Laser generated errors ? >>
I may have to look into that possibility.
If a coin is 98% FBL or FB or FS or FT or FH, and if the only thing keeping the coin from making the big money designation is a tiny bit of missing definition in one tiny spot, then a laser CAN be used to provide that tiny bit of definition on that tiny spot. To detect the alteration, one would need to closely study every bit of every line of separation. Now, it's reasonable to assume that if the doctor covers his tracks most people will miss the alteration, including TPG experts. So some coins probably are slipping through the cracks. No pun intended.
Now, here's the interesting thing, and it brings us full circle. The only reason any of this is an issue is that the market irrationally values the 100% coin far higher than the 98% coin, and there are two reasons this happens. First, the TPGs have an irrational binary method of strike designation, e.g., FBL or not. And second, and most disturbingly, most buyers are too highly influenced by third party plastic and price guides.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, its a question that needs to be asked...Frankly, if the strike is degraded anough in the laser cut area, I would think that those lines would stand out like a cat at a dog show! >>
He's absolutely right, they would. And since the bell lines are struck into the coin, the displaced metal raises up slightly around the lines as well. A laser cut line would have enough of a different look to it that attention would certainly be drawn. >>
Yeah, the metal doesn't cease to exist. Once it's been moved, it would have to be physically removed to not be noticed. >>
Yes, the metal is vaporized. It ceases to exist on the coin. It is not moved. It is burnt out completely.
Jonathan
Codder - You don't have to collect wonder gems. Try a set of circ whatever next and don't worry about the stuff that's beyond you. Later, after you've learned to take care of yourself, you can leave the kiddie pool and swim with the sharks.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I beleive there are easier, less expensive ways to falsify bell lines.
<< <i>
<< <i>Why doesn't someone try one and see? >>
Backing up his boasts isn't his style. >>
...........so you sure it`s not being done then ...............
These are the elements of numismatics that make me roll my eyes like this....
<< <i> All of that in 6 seconds or less
Probably more like 15-20 seconds on average, and that should be enough. >>
And if it is a 53-S, maybe a whole minute!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, its a question that needs to be asked...Frankly, if the strike is degraded anough in the laser cut area, I would think that those lines would stand out like a cat at a dog show! >>
He's absolutely right, they would. And since the bell lines are struck into the coin, the displaced metal raises up slightly around the lines as well. A laser cut line would have enough of a different look to it that attention would certainly be drawn. >>
Yeah, the metal doesn't cease to exist. Once it's been moved, it would have to be physically removed to not be noticed. >>
Yes, the metal is vaporized. It ceases to exist on the coin. It is not moved. It is burnt out completely.
Jonathan >>
I don't understand. What about conservation of matter?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i> irrational binary method of strike designation >>
Trademark that.
<< <i>And second, and most disturbingly, most buyers are too highly influenced by third party plastic and price guides. >>
Sigh.
gaze further then the limit`s of your imaginations ...........
The formost theroy bridging Quantum mechanics and thermo-dynamics is the " String " theroy .
The smartist genius`s of our time state that in order for this theroy to work-
there must be 9 , or is it 11 : diffrent dimensions .
Now , you people that must have everything " proven " to you ;
go ahead and doubt that everything in the universe is made up of vibrating "strings" -
and that their shape and frequency determine what they are.........
go ahead and doubt multible dimensions and show yourself a brainless twit.
Their are over 20 sex-tillion stars in the known Universe ........go ahead and start counting them -
it would take over a BILLION years just to do that.
Prove it ........... let`s see proof ...........where`s your proof.............
obviously - YOU CAN`T HANDLE THE TRUTH
The smartist genius`s of our time state that in order for this theroy to work-
there must be 9 , or is it 11 : diffrent dimensions .
Supercar - Interesting thoughts, but I have a pertinent question. Was "Theroy" George Jetson's son's name and what does he have to do with lasered Franklins?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Later, after you've learned to take care of yourself, you can leave the kiddie pool and swim with the sharks.
<< <i>...........so you sure it`s not being done then ............... >>
You seem sure it is done, so I'll assume you've seen or have a laser enhanced Franklin in a PCGS slab. I'll ask again: Do you have a pic? I'd be interested in seeing one.
Honestly though, I don't know why anyone would have to laser enhance the bell lines on a Franklin to get the designation from PCGS. I've seen plenty of PCGS FBL Franklins that were, in my opinion, not quite deserving of the designation. Perhaps they've tighted up recently?
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
Would'nt it discolor the area?
Tbig
THEN they will want who submitted it .........
<< <i>Now, in all fairness, I'd be surprised if there aren't some coins that have slipped through the cracks and I'll tell you where I think the risk is.
If a coin is 98% FBL or FB or FS or FT or FH, and if the only thing keeping the coin from making the big money designation is a tiny bit of missing definition in one tiny spot, then a laser CAN be used to provide that tiny bit of definition on that tiny spot. To detect the alteration, one would need to closely study every bit of every line of separation. Now, it's reasonable to assume that if the doctor covers his tracks most people will miss the alteration, including TPG experts. So some coins probably are slipping through the cracks. No pun intended.
Now, here's the interesting thing, and it brings us full circle. The only reason any of this is an issue is that the market irrationally values the 100% coin far higher than the 98% coin, and there are two reasons this happens. First, the TPGs have an irrational binary method of strike designation, e.g., FBL or not. And second, and most disturbingly, most buyers are too highly influenced by third party plastic and price guides. >>
Did someone say, collect coins that are fully struck? Like an entire coin can be lasered to make it appear
un-noticeably fully struck! HA! Away with all the attributes and usher in the one and only needed designation, "FS" meaning "FULL STRIKE"!
I say, laser away! I'd love to see it happen!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, its a question that needs to be asked...Frankly, if the strike is degraded anough in the laser cut area, I would think that those lines would stand out like a cat at a dog show! >>
He's absolutely right, they would. And since the bell lines are struck into the coin, the displaced metal raises up slightly around the lines as well. A laser cut line would have enough of a different look to it that attention would certainly be drawn. >>
Actually, with a laser, the metal is disintegrated, not displaced. Poof! It's gone.
I doubt anyone could tell the lasering had been done.
Jonathan
Now, in all fairness, I'd be surprised if there aren't some coins that have slipped through the cracks and I'll tell you where I think the risk is.
If a coin is 98% FBL or FB or FS or FT or FH, and if the only thing keeping the coin from making the big money designation is a tiny bit of missing definition in one tiny spot, then a laser CAN be used to provide that tiny bit of definition on that tiny spot. To detect the alteration, one would need to closely study every bit of every line of separation. Now, it's reasonable to assume that if the doctor covers his tracks most people will miss the alteration, including TPG experts. So some coins probably are slipping through the cracks. No pun intended.
Now, here's the interesting thing, and it brings us full circle. The only reason any of this is an issue is that the market irrationally values the 100% coin far higher than the 98% coin, and there are two reasons this happens. First, the TPGs have an irrational binary method of strike designation, e.g., FBL or not. And second, and most disturbingly, most buyers are too highly influenced by third party plastic and price guides.
BTW, same irrational Binary Difference of whether to slab or not based on "market acceptable" damage or toning is silly. Slab them all, just include an opinion of "degree of originality" and then reap a resubmission party as everyone 1) first, gets a "degree of originality" rating in the first place, then 2) the lottery of "crack out" for a higher and higher rating.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Didn't you guys see the old sci-fi flick: THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL ?
GORT! ... Bell lines! ... Nikkto...Klattu...Verada!
Matter is conserved during vaporization. It just changes from a solid to a vapor/gas/plasma and blows away. Nothing metaphysical about it.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
out for the reingraved boot. It almost makes
me want to collect match books instead of coins.
Camelot