Can PCGS detect Laser cut Bell Lines on Franklins ?

SUPERCARCOINS · July 20, 2006 7:37AM

.........I think not

Cladiator · July 20, 2006 7:39AM

Cut one and submit it, let's find out.

librtyhead · July 20, 2006 7:43AM

get a microscope and find out me thinks they can.laser will leave slag.

Russ · July 20, 2006 7:46AM

In a six second grading environment? Unlikely.

Russ, NCNE

ColonialCoinUnion · July 20, 2006 7:56AM

I think it would be pretty hard to detect consistently, and, with absolutely no disrespect intended toward supercarcoins, I feel ill for the hobby when a question like this needs to be asked on a coin forum.

19Lyds · July 20, 2006 8:01AM

Well, its a question that needs to be asked...Frankly, if the strike is degraded anough in the laser cut area, I would think that those lines would stand out like a cat at a dog show!

tradedollarnut · July 20, 2006 8:03AM

<< I think it would be pretty hard to detect consistently, and, with absolutely no disrespect intended toward supercarcoins, I feel ill for the hobby when a question like this needs to be asked on a coin forum. >>

Since I refuse to pay for silly strike designations, it doesn't bother me in the least.

nankraut · July 20, 2006 8:23AM

"Since I refuse to pay for silly strike designations, it doesn't bother me in the least"

robertpr · July 20, 2006 8:28AM

<< Well, its a question that needs to be asked...Frankly, if the strike is degraded anough in the laser cut area, I would think that those lines would stand out like a cat at a dog show! >>

He's absolutely right, they would. And since the bell lines are struck into the coin, the displaced metal raises up slightly around the lines as well. A laser cut line would have enough of a different look to it that attention would certainly be drawn.

ColonialCoinUnion · July 20, 2006 8:31AM

<< "Since I refuse to pay for silly strike designations, it doesn't bother me in the least"

>>

I'm not a great fan of these designations either, but I think anything that has the potential to shake collector confidence should concern you as a collector and dealer signficantly.

ABC123 · July 20, 2006 8:36AM

What is next---Laser generated errors ?

pharmer · July 20, 2006 8:42AM

<< 

<< Well, its a question that needs to be asked...Frankly, if the strike is degraded anough in the laser cut area, I would think that those lines would stand out like a cat at a dog show! >>

He's absolutely right, they would. And since the bell lines are struck into the coin, the displaced metal raises up slightly around the lines as well. A laser cut line would have enough of a different look to it that attention would certainly be drawn. >>

Yeah, the metal doesn't cease to exist. Once it's been moved, it would have to be physically removed to not be noticed.

MrEureka · July 20, 2006 8:47AM

Since I refuse to pay for silly strike designations, it doesn't bother me in the least

Easy to say when you collect Trade Dollars.

MrEureka · July 20, 2006 8:54AM

Can PCGS detect Laser cut Bell Lines on Franklins ?

Of course they can. Under a glass, the depressed separation between bell lines should be irregular and the metal should flow along the radial axes of the coin into the raised portions of each bell line. On a lasered coin, the separation will be more regular and the flow lines between bell lines will be obliterated. So if PCGS misses this, it's only because they didn't look close enough.

AU58WALKERS · July 20, 2006 8:57AM

All of that in 6 seconds or less

MrEureka · July 20, 2006 9:02AM

All of that in 6 seconds or less

Probably more like 15-20 seconds on average, and that should be enough.

SUPERCARCOINS · July 20, 2006 9:16AM

...glad to find out so many are familiar with a laser`s signature .........

you want flow line`s etched on ?

you want metal removed without a trace ?

.......or do you want to hide your head in the sand ?

kranky · July 20, 2006 9:28AM

Why doesn't someone try one and see?

pharmer · July 20, 2006 9:35AM

<< Why doesn't someone try one and see? >>

Backing up his boasts isn't his style.

librtyhead · July 20, 2006 9:39AM

I work w/plasma cutters,you would have to try in an eye lab,the cost of even using the equipment may be prohibative,and not be cost efficient on a coin.(I do not collect full steps nor full bell).But,it is an interesting subject and worth looking into.

MrEureka · July 20, 2006 9:48AM

you want flow line`s etched on ? .......or do you want to hide your head in the sand ?

I'll opt for the former. Show me.

Frankcoins · July 20, 2006 9:53AM

You apparently have been watching too many science fiction shows about the type
of "engraving" that can be done in metal with a laser....

Link

Jcarney · July 20, 2006 9:57AM

I'd like to see an example of one. Do you have a pic?

ksteelheader · July 20, 2006 10:10AM

<< What is next---Laser generated errors ? >>

I may have to look into that possibility.

MrEureka · July 20, 2006 10:17AM

Now, in all fairness, I'd be surprised if there aren't some coins that have slipped through the cracks and I'll tell you where I think the risk is.

If a coin is 98% FBL or FB or FS or FT or FH, and if the only thing keeping the coin from making the big money designation is a tiny bit of missing definition in one tiny spot, then a laser CAN be used to provide that tiny bit of definition on that tiny spot. To detect the alteration, one would need to closely study every bit of every line of separation. Now, it's reasonable to assume that if the doctor covers his tracks most people will miss the alteration, including TPG experts. So some coins probably are slipping through the cracks. No pun intended.

Now, here's the interesting thing, and it brings us full circle. The only reason any of this is an issue is that the market irrationally values the 100% coin far higher than the 98% coin, and there are two reasons this happens. First, the TPGs have an irrational binary method of strike designation, e.g., FBL or not. And second, and most disturbingly, most buyers are too highly influenced by third party plastic and price guides.

AlixTCat · July 20, 2006 10:41AM

<< 

<< 

<< Well, its a question that needs to be asked...Frankly, if the strike is degraded anough in the laser cut area, I would think that those lines would stand out like a cat at a dog show! >>

He's absolutely right, they would. And since the bell lines are struck into the coin, the displaced metal raises up slightly around the lines as well. A laser cut line would have enough of a different look to it that attention would certainly be drawn. >>

Yeah, the metal doesn't cease to exist. Once it's been moved, it would have to be physically removed to not be noticed. >>

Yes, the metal is vaporized. It ceases to exist on the coin. It is not moved. It is burnt out completely.

Jonathan

Codder · July 20, 2006 10:53AM

It's threads like this and articles in Coin World about the grading practices of PCGS and NGC (the big boys get treated better than the little old mes and yous) that make me glad I sold my small coin collection. When what's raw is probably fiddled with, and then the graders are suspect, novices like me don't stand a chance. At least, I'm smart enough to know I could spend years in the "hobby" and not learn all the ways a crook could steal from me. When I saw the graders are scammers, well... I still like reading the threads on the forum. And watching Coin Vault.

MrEureka · July 20, 2006 11:00AM

It's threads like this and articles in Coin World about the grading practices of PCGS and NGC (the big boys get treated better than the little old mes and yous) that make me glad I sold my small coin collection. When what's raw is probably fiddled with, and then the graders are suspect, novices like me don't stand a chance. At least, I'm smart enough to know I could spend years in the "hobby" and not learn all the ways a crook could steal from me. When I saw the graders are scammers, well... I still like reading the threads on the forum. And watching Coin Vault.

Codder - You don't have to collect wonder gems. Try a set of circ whatever next and don't worry about the stuff that's beyond you. Later, after you've learned to take care of yourself, you can leave the kiddie pool and swim with the sharks.

Shamika · July 20, 2006 11:09AM

I beleive there are easier, less expensive ways to falsify bell lines.

ccex · July 20, 2006 11:23AM

I've heard of a coin doctor in Texas who uses a laser to remove hairlines, so why not?

SUPERCARCOINS · July 20, 2006 11:26AM

<< 

<< Why doesn't someone try one and see? >>

Backing up his boasts isn't his style. >>

...........so you sure it`s not being done then ...............

Myqqy · July 20, 2006 11:31AM

The only reason any of this is an issue is that the market irrationally values the 100% coin far higher than the 98% coin, and there are two reasons this happens. First, the TPGs have an irrational binary method of strike designation, e.g., FBL or not. And second, and most disturbingly, most buyers are too highly influenced by third party plastic and price guides.

These are the elements of numismatics that make me roll my eyes like this....

Connecticoin · July 20, 2006 11:33AM

<< All of that in 6 seconds or less

Probably more like 15-20 seconds on average, and that should be enough. >>

And if it is a 53-S, maybe a whole minute!!

pharmer · July 20, 2006 11:34AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Well, its a question that needs to be asked...Frankly, if the strike is degraded anough in the laser cut area, I would think that those lines would stand out like a cat at a dog show! >>

He's absolutely right, they would. And since the bell lines are struck into the coin, the displaced metal raises up slightly around the lines as well. A laser cut line would have enough of a different look to it that attention would certainly be drawn. >>

Yeah, the metal doesn't cease to exist. Once it's been moved, it would have to be physically removed to not be noticed. >>

Yes, the metal is vaporized. It ceases to exist on the coin. It is not moved. It is burnt out completely.

Jonathan >>

I don't understand. What about conservation of matter?

Ronyahski · July 20, 2006 11:36AM

<< irrational binary method of strike designation >>

Trademark that.

<< And second, and most disturbingly, most buyers are too highly influenced by third party plastic and price guides. >>

Sigh.

SUPERCARCOINS · July 20, 2006 11:42AM

.............open up your minds ..........

gaze further then the limit`s of your imaginations ...........

The formost theroy bridging Quantum mechanics and thermo-dynamics is the " String " theroy .

The smartist genius`s of our time state that in order for this theroy to work-

there must be 9 , or is it 11 : diffrent dimensions .

Now , you people that must have everything " proven " to you ;

go ahead and doubt that everything in the universe is made up of vibrating "strings" -

and that their shape and frequency determine what they are.........

go ahead and doubt multible dimensions and show yourself a brainless twit.

Their are over 20 sex-tillion stars in the known Universe ........go ahead and start counting them -

it would take over a BILLION years just to do that.

Prove it ........... let`s see proof ...........where`s your proof.............

obviously - YOU CAN`T HANDLE THE TRUTH

librtyhead · July 20, 2006 11:43AM

vaporizing metal is feasable but the heat may tone the coin along the laser lines................if I worked in a medical practice that used a computer program to map out unwanted matter and the laser followed the program I would give it a whirl,to see if it could be done...............metal is interesting.

ColonialCoinUnion · July 20, 2006 11:43AM

OK then.

MrEureka · July 20, 2006 12:21PM

The formost theroy bridging Quantum mechanics and thermo-dynamics is the " String " theroy .

The smartist genius`s of our time state that in order for this theroy to work-

there must be 9 , or is it 11 : diffrent dimensions .

Supercar - Interesting thoughts, but I have a pertinent question. Was "Theroy" George Jetson's son's name and what does he have to do with lasered Franklins?

sinin1 · July 20, 2006 8:18PM

one of the best lines I have read on this forum yet ->

Later, after you've learned to take care of yourself, you can leave the kiddie pool and swim with the sharks.

Codder · July 20, 2006 9:04PM

His advice was honest and sincere, but it makes the whole experience seem uninviting. Swim with the sharks--and get eaten!

Jcarney · July 20, 2006 9:36PM

<< ...........so you sure it`s not being done then ............... >>

You seem sure it is done, so I'll assume you've seen or have a laser enhanced Franklin in a PCGS slab. I'll ask again: Do you have a pic? I'd be interested in seeing one.

Honestly though, I don't know why anyone would have to laser enhance the bell lines on a Franklin to get the designation from PCGS. I've seen plenty of PCGS FBL Franklins that were, in my opinion, not quite deserving of the designation. Perhaps they've tighted up recently?

Coin Finder · July 21, 2006 12:34AM

53 s frankies are looked at more carefully for full lines by PCGS, they would have to. Thats a big refund if they get it wrong. The time spent of this small population would be more then average I suspect and I think they would catch it. I am one Lazer short to experiment.

Would'nt it discolor the area?

Tbig

tmot99 · July 21, 2006 1:06AM

It's threads like this when it would be nice to have a PCGS grader chime in or even Ron or HRH. I don't expect them to spend their whole day on the boards, but their absence at times makes me wonder.

SUPERCARCOINS · July 22, 2006 5:12AM

..........no pictures please ! it starts with a photo , then someone will want the holder # ,

THEN they will want who submitted it .........

leothelyon · September 9, 2006 1:23AM

<< Now, in all fairness, I'd be surprised if there aren't some coins that have slipped through the cracks and I'll tell you where I think the risk is.

If a coin is 98% FBL or FB or FS or FT or FH, and if the only thing keeping the coin from making the big money designation is a tiny bit of missing definition in one tiny spot, then a laser CAN be used to provide that tiny bit of definition on that tiny spot. To detect the alteration, one would need to closely study every bit of every line of separation. Now, it's reasonable to assume that if the doctor covers his tracks most people will miss the alteration, including TPG experts. So some coins probably are slipping through the cracks. No pun intended.

Now, here's the interesting thing, and it brings us full circle. The only reason any of this is an issue is that the market irrationally values the 100% coin far higher than the 98% coin, and there are two reasons this happens. First, the TPGs have an irrational binary method of strike designation, e.g., FBL or not. And second, and most disturbingly, most buyers are too highly influenced by third party plastic and price guides. >>

Did someone say, collect coins that are fully struck? Like an entire coin can be lasered to make it appear
un-noticeably fully struck! HA! Away with all the attributes and usher in the one and only needed designation, "FS" meaning "FULL STRIKE"!

I say, laser away! I'd love to see it happen!

Leo

AlixTCat · September 9, 2006 3:06AM

<< 

<< Well, its a question that needs to be asked...Frankly, if the strike is degraded anough in the laser cut area, I would think that those lines would stand out like a cat at a dog show! >>

He's absolutely right, they would. And since the bell lines are struck into the coin, the displaced metal raises up slightly around the lines as well. A laser cut line would have enough of a different look to it that attention would certainly be drawn. >>

Actually, with a laser, the metal is disintegrated, not displaced. Poof! It's gone.
I doubt anyone could tell the lasering had been done.

Jonathan

Baley · September 9, 2006 3:16AM

POST OF THE DAY BY MR EUREKA!

Now, in all fairness, I'd be surprised if there aren't some coins that have slipped through the cracks and I'll tell you where I think the risk is.

If a coin is 98% FBL or FB or FS or FT or FH, and if the only thing keeping the coin from making the big money designation is a tiny bit of missing definition in one tiny spot, then a laser CAN be used to provide that tiny bit of definition on that tiny spot. To detect the alteration, one would need to closely study every bit of every line of separation. Now, it's reasonable to assume that if the doctor covers his tracks most people will miss the alteration, including TPG experts. So some coins probably are slipping through the cracks. No pun intended.

Now, here's the interesting thing, and it brings us full circle. The only reason any of this is an issue is that the market irrationally values the 100% coin far higher than the 98% coin, and there are two reasons this happens. First, the TPGs have an irrational binary method of strike designation, e.g., FBL or not. And second, and most disturbingly, most buyers are too highly influenced by third party plastic and price guides.

BTW, same irrational Binary Difference of whether to slab or not based on "market acceptable" damage or toning is silly. Slab them all, just include an opinion of "degree of originality" and then reap a resubmission party as everyone 1) first, gets a "degree of originality" rating in the first place, then 2) the lottery of "crack out" for a higher and higher rating.

bushmaster8 · September 9, 2006 3:35AM

It's already been done at least once.

Didn't you guys see the old sci-fi flick: THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL ?

GORT! ... Bell lines! ... Nikkto...Klattu...Verada!

Matter is conserved during vaporization. It just changes from a solid to a vapor/gas/plasma and blows away. Nothing metaphysical about it.

ABC123 · September 9, 2006 5:39AM

Not if they are cut by a Board Certified Coin Doctor !

Bear · September 9, 2006 6:05AM

On the Lafayette Dollar, you have to watch

out for the reingraved boot. It almost makes

me want to collect match books instead of coins.

Can PCGS detect Laser cut Bell Lines on Franklins ?

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