1864 2 cent piece ... UPDATED PICTURES

joecheck · July 13, 2006 9:07PM

Here is a coin I recently purchased. I've always wanted a 2 cent piece. This is the first one I really liked. I still can't get the lighting right on my pictures...sorry! Any help with grading it would be appreciated. It is so nice in hand that I'm a little scared of it being recolored. I was burned recently with a 1909 vdb that was recolored. Is there any sure-fire way of telling? I have higher resolution pictures if anyone wants me to email them for a better look.

Thanks!

Bikingnut · July 13, 2006 9:12PM

I'm no expert, but that doesn't look right. Looks recolored.

Dennis

coinguy1 · July 13, 2006 9:22PM

Definitely NOT original color, probably from a prior cleaning - sorry.

joecheck · July 13, 2006 9:24PM

<<Definitely NOT original color, probably from a prior cleaning - sorry.>>

Mark,

How can you tell?

coinguy1 · July 13, 2006 9:32PM

<< <<Definitely NOT original color, probably from a prior cleaning - sorry.>>

Mark,

How can you tell? >>

The color is "wrong"/off. Compare it with that seen on examples certified by major grading companies and over time, you will hopefully be able to see a difference. Here are two currently listed on Ebay:

example 1

example 2

joecheck · July 13, 2006 9:34PM

<<The color is "wrong"/off. Compare it with that seen on examples certified by major grading companies and over time, you will hopefully be able to see a difference.>>

I see what you mean...thanks!

ziggy29 · July 13, 2006 11:24PM

The color is a little too pinkish, which is usually an indicator of cleaned copper. AU details.

joecheck · July 13, 2006 11:33PM

Could it be my poor lighting in the picture?

drwstr123 · July 13, 2006 11:36PM

It could well be. Does your camera adjust for "white balance"?

joecheck · July 13, 2006 11:40PM

I think so but I don't know what setting to use for it. I have a Kodak DX7630 that I have had for a couple of years and I just found the macro button. I don't know where to set the other settings.

IndianHeadMan · July 14, 2006 12:01AM

Could be your camera, but right now it looks like the classic cleaned and then recolored copper.

drwstr123 · July 14, 2006 12:07AM

White balance adjusts to differing light sources to maintain true color. Try shooting in soft natural light, turn off the flash, and use the timer. Good luck. Mike

joecheck · July 14, 2006 12:24AM

Here's the auction. Maybe his pictures are better or more helpful.

Ebay

ziggy29 · July 14, 2006 12:35AM

How many days has it been since you received this coin from the seller?

joecheck · July 14, 2006 2:08AM

I am within the return period but I removed it from the flip to photograph it. I emailed the seller and here is his response...

To the best of my knowlege, this coin has not been recolored, it would be very hard in my mind to gain an original mint luster as this coin has! Best regards 1buybest

He has a pretty good Ebay record (100% on 305 transactions). I want to believe him because he sounds honest and I love the coin. However, I don't want to overpay for a coin that has been recolored.

ziggy29 · July 14, 2006 2:15AM

Well, according to the terms, once you remove it from its holder, it's considered sold and the sale is final. That's a pretty standard clause in most return policies.

Bikingnut · July 14, 2006 2:23AM

Another give away is that in your photos, the color looks shiney, like it was painted on. There is a big difference between mint luster and "shiney" as the coin looks in your pictures.

Dennis

joecheck · July 14, 2006 11:47AM

Actually, the coin does not shine. That's what made me think it may be recolored. But, here is one of the good guys on Ebay...

<<Absolutely I will absorb against my policy of returns, I will allow you one month to do what you got to do, and if it comes back colored, simply return it, and I will refund your full purchase price. All I ask is return the coin in its certified container from the certified agency. More than that I can't do. Best Regards 1buybest.
>>

ziggy29 · July 14, 2006 11:49AM

<< ]Absolutely I will absorb against my policy of returns, I will allow you one month to do what you got to do, and if it comes back colored, simply return it, and I will refund your full purchase price. All I ask is return the coin in its certified container from the certified agency. More than that I can't do. Best Regards 1buybest. >>

That's certainly an honorable seller if they follow through with this! But I'm not sure it's worth slabbing. You'd probably have to pay $25+ to get it back within a month, especially with the ANA in Denver looming...

jdimmick · July 14, 2006 11:53AM

The coin is not original and needs to be returned asap! Not worth VG money IMO. Cleaned and retoned two cents you can buy by the truckload for peanuts.

joecheck · July 14, 2006 11:53AM

10 days at ANACS should do it. I still have some freebees from other submissions.

Curley · July 14, 2006 2:11PM

The easiest way to tell it is recolored is that it is not certified! This response is somewhat tongue-in-cheek but in most instances the owner of a true "red" two cent knows that it will sell for far more certified than raw and they will therefore have it slabbed before selling. The very fact that it was offered raw tells me that unless this is one of those one-in-a-million dream deals where the seller is unknowledgeable about the coin they are offering, it is most likely a problem coin.

Leiana · July 14, 2006 2:16PM

I don't get why it's considered red, it looks brown to me. Will someone please explain? I don't know much about copper coins. Thanks!

-Amanda

ziggy29 · July 14, 2006 2:31PM

<< I don't get why it's considered red, it looks brown to me. Will someone please explain? I don't know much about copper coins. Thanks! >>

Amanda,

I don't think most people would "consider" this coin red. You are spot-on in your assessment. It's brown (and IMO, cleaned and possibly recolored) and that assumes it's not recolored, which I think it is.

Your observation tells me that you're off to a great start on a numismatic education. You may be selling me some coins in another 10-20 years!

coinbuf · July 14, 2006 2:46PM

I have to agree that the color looks wrong but I cannot tell for sure if its the coin or your lighting/pics. If I were the buyer I'd send it back but thats a call only you can make.

Chris

Leiana · July 14, 2006 2:47PM

<< 

<< I don't get why it's considered red, it looks brown to me. Will someone please explain? I don't know much about copper coins. Thanks! >>

Amanda,

I don't think most people would "consider" this coin red. You are spot-on in your assessment. It's brown (and IMO, cleaned and possibly recolored) and that assumes it's not recolored, which I think it is.

Your observation tells me that you're off to a great start on a numismatic education. You may be selling me some coins in another 10-20 years!

>>

Oh, okay. I was confused there. Thanks very much! I hope to be in this hobby for a long time. Everyone on the board is very helpful.

-Amanda

joecheck · July 14, 2006 9:25PM

It's definitly not red. That's my poor photography. It's completely brown. What spooks me is that it is almost evenly colored on both sides. The seller emailed me, again...

<<Thats OK Joe, I try the best I can to make my customers happy. As far as the item we are talking about, I can only say in honesty that I never tried to color it, or any coin I have, and I have no problem with you trying to find out the truth. Please let me know as soon as you know anything. ..... Regards 1buybest>>

topstuf · July 15, 2006 1:35AM

A way to tell is that it looks (for want of a better description) "wet" looking. Look at Coinguy1's first link and see how the surface looks "dryer."

As mentioned on the color, it has that unnatural "pink-ISH" color which is not right on any copper.

But on business strike coins, usually the "dryer" the surface looks, the better.

Even proofs which are described as "watery" are only that way as a sort of .... "effect" of ... reflection. But under a glass, even proofs will have that "dry" look. Especially noticeable at junctures of devices where they meet the field. In fact, I'd bet that even grade differences could be ascertained by the degree of wet/dry "look" with the dryer appearance being the higher grade.

The dryness "look" is the granularity of the metal which is of a sort of "powdery" surface look....BEFORE.... anything touches it and that granularity comes off gradually with either circulation or wiping.

A good example is to look at an obviously LIGHTLY circulated coin and see how the protected areas contrast with the open parts of the field.

It...DOES...come from experience and is difficult to describe, but a coin which appears dry and VERY FINELY powdery (to a very microscopic scale) is usually OK.

Hope this makes some sense.

lkenefic · July 15, 2006 2:17AM

One red flag I noticed on your coin from the original pics is that it's nearly totally uniform in color. I have a Large Cent (1850) that looks quite similar in appearance. It came with a Grellman attribution card as 25/15 "Cleaned-recolored". EACers hit these things hard if not totally original... usually 10-15 points depending upon how the recoloring looks. At least the guy was upfront when I bought this one. I also purchased an 1827 with VF details from a different seller but the photo didn't quite capture the "wet" look referenced above...obvious recoloring in hand. At that point I'd have been throwing good money after bad in shipping charges so I kept the coin. It sounds like the guy you're dealing with is at least trying to make things right in extending his return policy. It would be better if it was a "no questions asked" return policy but this in not a perfect world. Best of Luck!!

Leo

Shamika · July 15, 2006 2:41AM

Cleaned and retoned.

seateddime · July 15, 2006 8:33AM

that coin has had more work than Pam Anderson

rjsriv · July 15, 2006 8:36AM

color is not right and kinda grainy.

joecheck · July 15, 2006 8:40AM

<<The dryness "look" is the granularity of the metal which is of a sort of "powdery" surface look>>>

topstuf...

Now, I have to take another photo of this coin. It is very dry and powdery looking. It is also very granular. I think the picture and lighting is just very bad. Plus, I used a flash. I thought the powdery/granular look was recoloring. I had it backwards. I'm going to take some better photos. I want you to look at them for me.

coinguy1 · July 15, 2006 8:41AM

<< 10 days at ANACS should do it. I still have some freebees from other submissions. >>

Frankly, that is a waste of a grading fee and postage. Even if you have "free" submissions, you'd be better off using them for something worthwhile. Each time you use up a "free" one, that's one less "free" one left and one future submission you will have to pay for eventually.

The coin does not look anything close to original and I am confident it's not just as a result of the imaging. If you spend much time looking on Ebay, you should know that excellent feedback doesn't necessarily mean the seller sells nice coins, or knows his stuff, only that he sells to people who don't know better.

joecheck · July 16, 2006 8:13PM

I took some other pictures. I varied the settings on my camera.

Tonight, I'm going to try the white balance. I know my pictures are not accurate because the felt that the coin is resting on is navy blue. I bought a couple of different lamps and some lower watt bulbs, yesterday. If nothing else, this will help my photograpy skills. I wish I could get the color right. The coin is more dull and grainy than the pictures. Also, I use two 75 watt bulbs and a halogen lamp focused on the coin about 4-5 inches above it. That could explain the shiny appearence in the original pictures because the coin looks anything but shiny. And, it has spots of reddish color in a couple of places (like the date and on the shield. The same goes with these pictures. I have to work on my lighting.

This is a close-up of the coin. Notice the little blueish specks that are scattered around the coin. These are all over the coin...under magnification. Wouldn't recoloring cover them?

What kind of doubling is this on the coin? I noticed it while taking the pictures. I lightened the picture to make the doubling easier to see. There's also a nice crack from the "E" to the rim.

Here are the blueish specks, again.

This is a good picture to see the grainy look of the coin in hand. Notice the blueish specks that are mixed in the color of the coin.

Leiana · July 16, 2006 11:08PM

I think light is definitely your problem. Too many light sources (don't forget flash is also a light source) can cause wierd shadow and color effects. The doubling is very interesting.

-Amanda

Prethen · July 16, 2006 11:33PM

After 140+ years, the coin wouldn't look like that. It has been cleaned. Not sure how....but cleaned. There's no apparent luster on the coin and its surfaces appear dead.

ziggy29 · July 16, 2006 11:34PM

The color doesn't look as far "off" as the first pictures did, but the surfaces appear to be lifeless. I wouldn't expect an original surface to be that devoid of "life" after 142 years.

AceK · July 16, 2006 11:57PM

Playing devil's advocate, if YOU are happy with the coin, that's ultimately what matters. It's not like you paid an outrageous sum for it or were blatantly ripped off. In fact, for what you paid, you simply are not going to find a perfect 2 cent piece - it will either be lower grade or have a problem (scratched, cleaned, etc.). To me then, the question is, which compromise will I make - condition or problem? At the end of the day, I'm the one who needs to be satisfied, not the forum members who respond to my post. Good luck!

joecheck · July 17, 2006 7:26AM

<<Playing devil's advocate, if YOU are happy with the coin, that's ultimately what matters. It's not like you paid an outrageous sum for it or were blatantly ripped off. In fact, for what you paid, you simply are not going to find a perfect 2 cent piece - it will either be lower grade or have a problem (scratched, cleaned, etc.). To me then, the question is, which compromise will I make - condition or problem? At the end of the day, I'm the one who needs to be satisfied, not the forum members who respond to my post. Good luck!>>

First, let me say thanks!

I would rather sacrifice condition than have a problem coin because it makes me feel the same as having a COPY or fake. I will try for some better pictures with the new lights I bought and the white balance setting adjusted.

<<Amanda>>

Welcome to the forum! You sound like a very smart YN. How long have you been into coins?

Leiana · July 17, 2006 7:32AM

<< <<Amanda>>

Welcome to the forum! You sound like a very smart YN. How long have you been into coins? >>

Thanks!

Actually learning about coins and collecting the older issues, a little under two years. But I started State Quarters in 1999 and was collecting odd coins and foreign coins before that.

-Amanda

joecheck · July 17, 2006 7:41AM

Amanda,

You say "odd coins"...does that mean errors? Errors are my favorite.

Leiana · July 17, 2006 7:45AM

<< Amanda,

You say "odd coins"...does that mean errors? Errors are my favorite. >>

No, it's more like someone would give me an Ike dollar or a Kennedy half and I would keep them because they were different. Also if I happened to find a Bicentennial Quarter or a wheat cent, I would save those. I do have a very odd Kennedy half that does appear to be an error because it has no reeded edge and is softly struck and a tad thicker than regular Kennedys.

-Amanda

1864 2 cent piece ... UPDATED PICTURES

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1864 2 cent piece ... ***UPDATED PICTURES***

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1864 2 cent piece ... UPDATED PICTURES