I just don't have time for your Childish Personal attacks.
You aren't worth my time any longer - I always counted on this place to be BETTER than r.c.c.
Sorry Mad Marty, I refuse to hang around... ( love the Chicken tho'! ) >>
You have to admit one thing though, people here are very opinionated. You should see the sparks fly over the NGC/PCGS thing or Toned/white things. All in all this is a great place to hang out!
It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!
With that policy, they will be inundated with every AT color coin in the country. Some percentage will be holdered, and they will end up with a reputation for having AT coins in their holders. Oh wait, hasn't that already happened?
<< <i>Seriously, but 10 sightunseen ICG coins, crack them out and submit them. and then post the results. >>
I think if you randomly take 10 ICG coins and crack them out for submission to PCGS and do the smae with NGC I think ICG would come back with better results.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Seriously, but 10 sightunseen ICG coins, crack them out and submit them. and then post the results. >>
I think if you randomly take 10 ICG coins and crack them out for submission to PCGS and do the smae with NGC I think ICG would come back with better results. >>
Grading, THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER. There are too many unquantifiable factors that go into making a single numerical grade.
In our current 1-70 grading scale, PCGS grades the most conservative (lower on the scale) so their coins bring more money (because many will upgrade in another holder)
NGC gives the benefit of the doubt and will often assign the higher grade making their coins sell for less.
A numerical grade on a slab is just an opinion of weighted factors concerning the original surface (luster), strike, etc. How you weight those factors on any given day will form the basis of a 'grade'.
There is very little consistency (how can there be) with a game where people try to guess how another person (or group of people) will grade a coin based upon a set of changing factors.
I personally think our current grading system is 'broke' but can't see another solution.
I buy coins not based upon a grade; I buy them based upon originality, strike, luster, eye appeal, etc. And then, USE THE GRADE ON THE SLAB TO DECIDE WHAT I HAVE TO PAY FOR IT. (ICG coins too)
Russ, I have read almost every one of your posts over the last year with respect. I don't like the way you attack people so I refuse to reply to you any further. (no my feelings aren't hurt, I DON'T CARE)
I did like your old icon though.
And dizzy, I love your toned commems (been working on a rainbow commem set for 7 years)
<< <i>Seriously, but 10 sightunseen ICG coins, crack them out and submit them. and then post the results. >>
I think if you randomly take 10 ICG coins and crack them out for submission to PCGS and do the smae with NGC I think ICG would come back with better results. >>
ummmmmmm... doubt it. >>
Then why do you say ICG is tougher on grading than NGC. Should they not come back with better results for that reason alone?
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Seriously, but 10 sightunseen ICG coins, crack them out and submit them. and then post the results. >>
I think if you randomly take 10 ICG coins and crack them out for submission to PCGS and do the smae with NGC I think ICG would come back with better results. >>
Do it and post the results!!!
It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!
<< <i>Seriously, but 10 sightunseen ICG coins, crack them out and submit them. and then post the results. >>
I think if you randomly take 10 ICG coins and crack them out for submission to PCGS and do the smae with NGC I think ICG would come back with better results. >>
Do it and post the results!!! >>
Well I would probably get criticized for my scientific approach, and besides there would be no fun in it, just results.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I don`t own ANY of their slabs and don`t believe ANYONE with a brain do`s either >>
Now, now, I've owned plenty of ICG slabs. At least until I got out the hammer.And I bet some of them upgraded to....even with PCGS, I am sure all of them with NGC!
Russ, NCNE >>
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>And I bet some of them upgraded to....even with PCGS, I am sure all of them with NGC! >>
You'd lose that bet. No ICG coin I've cracked out has ever upgraded. In fact, very few have even come back at the same grade. But, it doesn't matter since they bring so much less than accurately graded coins.
As you all argue over GRADE, not one of you talked about the issue in the original post. Which TPG bodybags more coins? Is it more consistent or less consistent than other TPGs in assigning a bodybag instead of a grade? Which is stricter in determining whether a coin will even grade?
If ICG tends to grade +1 or +2, so what? At least you know what to expect when you try to cross it to PCGS. But does anybody know whether a coin GRADED by ICG will also get graded by PCGS? Has PCGS been known to bodybag ICG crackouts more often than NGC crackouts or even PCGS crackouts?
What I was trying to determine is NOT which TPG is the most consistent in assigning GRADES. What I was asking is which is the most consistent in bodybag or ungradeable determination?
Maybe nobody has any idea. Maybe we don't have enough combined experience to anwer that question. Maybe it cannot be answered at all. Maybe the bodybag determination is just a probability-based model like grading is for all TPGs.
I think it would be great if there could be some coin grading trials and then calculate some probability models for each TPG based on the outcome of grading trials. We might be suprised at the outcome. Maybe PCGS is the "stricter" grader but less consistent in actual grade assigned. Maybe one of the other TPGs is more liberal but more consistent. And maybe there isn't just one answer. Maybe it depends on the type of coin being evaluated.
The coin collecting consumer really needs a an independent evaluator of TPGs like there is for other consumer products, where real scientific methodologies are used to evaluate TPGs, and then reported independently and periodically.
<< <i>And I bet some of them upgraded to....even with PCGS, I am sure all of them with NGC! >>
You'd lose that bet. No ICG coin I've cracked out has ever upgraded. In fact, very few have even come back at the same grade. But, it doesn't matter since they bring so much less than accurately graded coins. Well then why did you buy them and crack them out?
Russ, NCNE >>
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Well then why did you buy them and crack them out? >>
Perhaps you missed the part about the fact that they bring so much less than accurately graded coins? They're so cheap that even with a point or two drop they can be profitable in a PCGS holder.
<< <i>As you all argue over GRADE, not one of you talked about the issue in the original post. Which TPG bodybags more coins? Is it more consistent or less consistent than other TPGs in assigning a bodybag instead of a grade? Which is stricter in determining whether a coin will even grade?
If ICG tends to grade +1 or +2, so what? At least you know what to expect when you try to cross it to PCGS. But does anybody know whether a coin GRADED by ICG will also get graded by PCGS? Has PCGS been known to bodybag ICG crackouts more often than NGC crackouts or even PCGS crackouts?
What I was trying to determine is NOT which TPG is the most consistent in assigning GRADES. What I was asking is which is the most consistent in bodybag or ungradeable determination?
Maybe nobody has any idea. Maybe we don't have enough combined experience to anwer that question. Maybe it cannot be answered at all. Maybe the bodybag determination is just a probability-based model like grading is for all TPGs.
I think it would be great if there could be some coin grading trials and then calculate some probability models for each TPG based on the outcome of grading trials. We might be suprised at the outcome. Maybe PCGS is the "stricter" grader but less consistent in actual grade assigned. Maybe one of the other TPGs is more liberal but more consistent. And maybe there isn't just one answer. Maybe it depends on the type of coin being evaluated.
The coin collecting consumer really needs a an independent evaluator of TPGs like there is for other consumer products, where real scientific methodologies are used to evaluate TPGs, and then reported independently and periodically. >>
Yeah we drifted from your original post, but when the whole coin industry for the most part lowballs the price of a coin compared to its competitor, it must be tough to be in that position, be it ICG or NGC.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Well then why did you buy them and crack them out? >>
Perhaps you missed the part about the fact that they bring so much less than accurately graded coins? They're so cheap that even with a point or two drop they can be profitable in a PCGS holder.If your buying them that cheap, that is a good margin, but I still say NGC overgrades as a policy.
Russ, NCNE >>
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I also find it interesting that you are posting this on the PCGS forum! Maybe you should take it to the ICG forum... Oh yea, they don't have one!!! >>
They use to have a discussion board of sorts. It was kind of like the Q & A Forum here. I just recommended to my sister-in-law to send a coin to ICG. It was some sort of ancient. I have seen this statement on the boards here. "When it comes to Ancients, ICG is the only game in town." Besides that, I have nothing I want to send. The experience I have had with them is overgrading.
As for the idea to send coins to ICG first so as not to pay full fee for body bagged coins when sent to PCGS is nonsense. There are dealers who will screen your coins for no cost.
I think if you randomly take 10 ICG coins and crack them out for submission to PCGS and do the smae with NGC I think ICG would come back with better results.
I wish you would do this and let us know how you make out.
Comments
<< <i>NO,
I just don't have time for your Childish Personal attacks.
You aren't worth my time any longer - I always counted on this place to be BETTER than r.c.c.
Sorry Mad Marty, I refuse to hang around... ( love the Chicken tho'! ) >>
You have to admit one thing though, people here are very opinionated. You should see the sparks fly over the NGC/PCGS thing or Toned/white things. All in all this is a great place to hang out!
<< <i>You should see the sparks fly over the NGC/PCGS thing or Toned/white things >>
MadMarty, Toned vs. White??? Is there even a comparison?
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>Seriously, but 10 sightunseen ICG coins, crack them out and submit them. and then post the results. >>
I think if you randomly take 10 ICG coins and crack them out for submission to PCGS and do the smae with NGC I think ICG would come back with better results.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>Seriously, but 10 sightunseen ICG coins, crack them out and submit them. and then post the results. >>
I think if you randomly take 10 ICG coins and crack them out for submission to PCGS and do the smae with NGC I think ICG would come back with better results.
ummmmmmm... doubt it.
Grading, THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER. There are too many unquantifiable factors that go into making a single numerical grade.
In our current 1-70 grading scale, PCGS grades the most conservative (lower on the scale) so their coins bring more money (because many will upgrade in another holder)
NGC gives the benefit of the doubt and will often assign the higher grade making their coins sell for less.
A numerical grade on a slab is just an opinion of weighted factors concerning the original surface (luster), strike, etc. How you weight those factors on any given day will form the basis of a 'grade'.
There is very little consistency (how can there be) with a game where people try to guess how another person (or group of people) will grade a coin based upon a set of changing factors.
I personally think our current grading system is 'broke' but can't see another solution.
I buy coins not based upon a grade; I buy them based upon originality, strike, luster, eye appeal, etc.
And then, USE THE GRADE ON THE SLAB TO DECIDE WHAT I HAVE TO PAY FOR IT. (ICG coins too)
Russ, I have read almost every one of your posts over the last year with respect. I don't like the way you attack people so I refuse to reply to you any further. (no my feelings aren't hurt, I DON'T CARE)
I did like your old icon though.
And dizzy, I love your toned commems (been working on a rainbow commem set for 7 years)
I have one thing to say about that coin in your sig line: HOLY CRAP!
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Sorry Mad Marty, I refuse to hang around... >>
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Seriously, but 10 sightunseen ICG coins, crack them out and submit them. and then post the results. >>
I think if you randomly take 10 ICG coins and crack them out for submission to PCGS and do the smae with NGC I think ICG would come back with better results.
ummmmmmm... doubt it.
Then why do you say ICG is tougher on grading than NGC. Should they not come back with better results for that reason alone?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i><< Sorry Mad Marty, I refuse to hang around... >> WITH RUSS >>
No choice!
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I would think that one would need pretty thick skin to come around here and tout the strictness of icg grading....
It is stricter than NGC!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I HAVE NO idea how they stay in buisness .
Everyone is intitled to their opinion -no matter how ignorant or wrong it may be .
ICG is a pityful excuse for a grading service , and i could care less if they grade coins for free-
I don`t own ANY of their slabs and don`t believe ANYONE with a brain do`s either
<< <i>
<< <i>Seriously, but 10 sightunseen ICG coins, crack them out and submit them. and then post the results. >>
I think if you randomly take 10 ICG coins and crack them out for submission to PCGS and do the smae with NGC I think ICG would come back with better results.
Do it and post the results!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Seriously, but 10 sightunseen ICG coins, crack them out and submit them. and then post the results. >>
I think if you randomly take 10 ICG coins and crack them out for submission to PCGS and do the smae with NGC I think ICG would come back with better results.
Do it and post the results!!! >>
Well I would probably get criticized for my scientific approach, and besides there would be no fun in it, just results.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I don`t own ANY of their slabs and don`t believe ANYONE with a brain do`s either >>
Now, now, I've owned plenty of ICG slabs. At least until I got out the hammer.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>They are more accurate than NGC >>
Russ, you need to drink some more the "The Kool-Aid".
<< <i>
<< <i>I don`t own ANY of their slabs and don`t believe ANYONE with a brain do`s either >>
Now, now, I've owned plenty of ICG slabs. At least until I got out the hammer.And I bet some of them upgraded to....even with PCGS, I am sure all of them with NGC!
Russ, NCNE >>
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>And I bet some of them upgraded to....even with PCGS, I am sure all of them with NGC! >>
You'd lose that bet. No ICG coin I've cracked out has ever upgraded. In fact, very few have even come back at the same grade. But, it doesn't matter since they bring so much less than accurately graded coins.
Russ, NCNE
If ICG tends to grade +1 or +2, so what? At least you know what to expect when you try to cross it to PCGS. But does anybody know whether a coin GRADED by ICG will also get graded by PCGS? Has PCGS been known to bodybag ICG crackouts more often than NGC crackouts or even PCGS crackouts?
What I was trying to determine is NOT which TPG is the most consistent in assigning GRADES. What I was asking is which is the most consistent in bodybag or ungradeable determination?
Maybe nobody has any idea. Maybe we don't have enough combined experience to anwer that question. Maybe it cannot be answered at all. Maybe the bodybag determination is just a probability-based model like grading is for all TPGs.
I think it would be great if there could be some coin grading trials and then calculate some probability models for each TPG based on the outcome of grading trials. We might be suprised at the outcome. Maybe PCGS is the "stricter" grader but less consistent in actual grade assigned. Maybe one of the other TPGs is more liberal but more consistent. And maybe there isn't just one answer. Maybe it depends on the type of coin being evaluated.
The coin collecting consumer really needs a an independent evaluator of TPGs like there is for other consumer products, where real scientific methodologies are used to evaluate TPGs, and then reported independently and periodically.
<< <i>
<< <i>And I bet some of them upgraded to....even with PCGS, I am sure all of them with NGC! >>
You'd lose that bet. No ICG coin I've cracked out has ever upgraded. In fact, very few have even come back at the same grade. But, it doesn't matter since they bring so much less than accurately graded coins. Well then why did you buy them and crack them out?
Russ, NCNE >>
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Well then why did you buy them and crack them out? >>
Perhaps you missed the part about the fact that they bring so much less than accurately graded coins? They're so cheap that even with a point or two drop they can be profitable in a PCGS holder.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>As you all argue over GRADE, not one of you talked about the issue in the original post. Which TPG bodybags more coins? Is it more consistent or less consistent than other TPGs in assigning a bodybag instead of a grade? Which is stricter in determining whether a coin will even grade?
If ICG tends to grade +1 or +2, so what? At least you know what to expect when you try to cross it to PCGS. But does anybody know whether a coin GRADED by ICG will also get graded by PCGS? Has PCGS been known to bodybag ICG crackouts more often than NGC crackouts or even PCGS crackouts?
What I was trying to determine is NOT which TPG is the most consistent in assigning GRADES. What I was asking is which is the most consistent in bodybag or ungradeable determination?
Maybe nobody has any idea. Maybe we don't have enough combined experience to anwer that question. Maybe it cannot be answered at all. Maybe the bodybag determination is just a probability-based model like grading is for all TPGs.
I think it would be great if there could be some coin grading trials and then calculate some probability models for each TPG based on the outcome of grading trials. We might be suprised at the outcome. Maybe PCGS is the "stricter" grader but less consistent in actual grade assigned. Maybe one of the other TPGs is more liberal but more consistent. And maybe there isn't just one answer. Maybe it depends on the type of coin being evaluated.
The coin collecting consumer really needs a an independent evaluator of TPGs like there is for other consumer products, where real scientific methodologies are used to evaluate TPGs, and then reported independently and periodically. >>
Yeah we drifted from your original post, but when the whole coin industry for the most part lowballs the price of a coin compared to its competitor, it must be tough to be in that position, be it ICG or NGC.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>Well then why did you buy them and crack them out? >>
Perhaps you missed the part about the fact that they bring so much less than accurately graded coins? They're so cheap that even with a point or two drop they can be profitable in a PCGS holder.If your buying them that cheap, that is a good margin, but I still say NGC overgrades as a policy.
Russ, NCNE >>
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I also find it interesting that you are posting this on the PCGS forum! Maybe you should take it to the ICG forum... Oh yea, they don't have one!!! >>
They use to have a discussion board of sorts. It was kind of like the Q & A Forum here. I just recommended to my sister-in-law to send a coin to ICG. It was some sort of ancient. I have seen this statement on the boards here. "When it comes to Ancients, ICG is the only game in town." Besides that, I have nothing I want to send. The experience I have had with them is overgrading.
As for the idea to send coins to ICG first so as not to pay full fee for body bagged coins when sent to PCGS is nonsense. There are dealers who will screen your coins for no cost.
Jerry
I wish you would do this and let us know how you make out.
I wouldn't waste my money......
NOT