Update: 1834 Capped Bust Half - PCGS MS-61 (OGH) -- I Have Decided to Return Her

Stuart · July 1, 2006 12:25PM

I would appreciate Forum Member assistance on helping me to make a decision about whether or not to keep a very attractive 1834 PCGS MS-61 (OGH) Capped Bust Half that I recently purchased. There will be no problem in returning the coin to the dealer if that is what I desire.

The coin pictured below is in a PCGS 1st Generation Old Green Label Insert holder with a plastic collar around the edge. My reason for asking is that although the coin has exceptional eye appeal, it appears to me to really be an AU-58 in a PCGS MS-61 holder (i.e. net "Market Graded"). As shown in the photos below this coin has strong cartwheel luster in the fields, and very high eye appeal with delicate light golden brown toning.

My dilemma is that I paid approx MS-63 CDN Bid for the coin, and it appears (in my opinion) to have been perhaps lightly wiped across the cheek many years ago, giving the portrait a slightly shinier appearance and a different texture as compared to the other portions of the devices and also the fields. So, I think that it has been very lightly "rubbed". You can see a bit of this depicted in the photo as slightly darker gray areas on Miss Liberty's cheek, neck and bust area.

Thanks in advance for sharing your opinions of this coin with me, and for providing me with your advice on how you might proceed in this same situation.

1834 PCGS MS-61 (OGH) Capped Bust Half Dollar

Louis · July 1, 2006 12:29PM

From the picture it appears to have had a light cleaning on the reverse.

Barndog · July 1, 2006 12:30PM

If you are already thinking about the things you don't like about the coin it won't get any better if you decide to keep it. There will be another out there deserving of 63 money.

JRocco · July 1, 2006 12:31PM

Hey Stuart,
Impossible to answer without seeing the coin in hand, BUT... There is no way that that coin has enough contact marks to have been graded a 61 in my opinion. 61's are baggy pieces of crap usually unless it is an AU61 if you understand what I mean (and I know you do).
Of course there are exceptions and I am sure that someone can show me a coin to prove my statement wrong, but it usually holds water.
That said- that is a very nice looking coin and may be worth the price paid.

RYK · July 1, 2006 12:32PM

I am not an expert on the series, but the coin looks pretty nice to me. If you have any doubt now, however, my experience is that it will only grow in time. Best to send the coin back and move on to the next.

stman · July 1, 2006 12:34PM

I would decide what it is worth to me. Regardless of the holder, or no holder. Or old holder or new holder. What's it worth is the bottom line.

lava · July 1, 2006 12:53PM

I can't see how anyone can respond with any degree of certainty without coin in hand, but just to mirror what you've shared, you paid 63 money for a 61 that you think is a 58. The Stuart I know would pay 58 money for a 61 holder that he felt belonged in a 63 holder. You are obviously an imposter; what have you done with the real Stuart?

mozin · July 1, 2006 1:05PM

CDN bid for MS63 is about $1450. Blue sheet MS61 is about $430. From what you are saying about the coin and what I see on the pictures, I would not be a buyer at $500. Send it back and find a less common date that you truly like. JMHO

greghansen · July 1, 2006 6:40PM

While you say the coin has exceptional eye appeal, the images don't do that much for me, especially if I was a quoted MS63'ish price. It's a later date, so you can definately be very demanding about what you expect out of a coin for that year. I'd send it packing and keep looking. If your prepared to spend MS63ish money. I'd wait for a nice MS63, because some of them are really quite attractive.

roadrunner · July 1, 2006 9:23PM

Send it back. You have doubts now and they will only magnify in time. If the coin looked 64ish I'd say keep it, but it doesn't. You have speculated on 1st gen plastic and that holds much of the value of the coin inside. If this were currently graded as MS61 would you dare keep it? 1st gen slabs often jump a point. 2 point jumps are much rarer and those kind of coins are rarely seen today. The fact that a dealer is selling this for 63 money should speak volumes. Here's a case where you'd be better off in current PCGS 63 plastic.

Tics and hits are usually rather similar from AU58 to MS63 bust halves. It's the degree of luster and amount of rub that determines the value. This just doesn't have the field cartwheel I'd expect to see on a legit 63. It's definitely a mint state coin by today's standards but has light rub like most do (curls, cap, wing tips, cheek, etc.). This particular date often has striking issues in the curls that tend to make the rub look worse. And it's one reason why I'd prefer a pre-1830's date if possible.

Better to spend a little more for an all there MS63 that you have no doubts on. To me, the luster looks too faint/fuzzy, probably once or twice cleaned, no doubt spent some time in circulation (like 95% of the uncs), and just lacks the depth of cartwheel and originality I'd want to see in an honest unc. I do not feel it has above average eye appeal, at least not per the photo provided. Luster is king.

roadrunner

slumlord98 · July 1, 2006 9:45PM

Stuart,

The chorus is getting rather loud, and I can only add to it. Send it back if you aren't comfortable. An 1834 that is overvalued is not a treasure; it is merely replaceable. To me OGH means jack. Dealers pimp a green label like it has meaning. Nowadays the only meaning is 'overpriced'.

coinguy1 · July 1, 2006 9:46PM

<< Hey Stuart,
Impossible to answer without seeing the coin in hand, BUT... There is no way that that coin has enough contact marks to have been graded a 61 in my opinion. 61's are baggy pieces of crap usually unless it is an AU61 if you understand what I mean (and I know you do).
Of course there are exceptions and I am sure that someone can show me a coin to prove my statement wrong, but it usually holds water.
That said- that is a very nice looking coin and may be worth the price paid. >>

Grading is often about factors other than contact marks. Based upon the images, I'm guessing the grade is held down by the amount of cabinet friction/rub on Liberty's cheek, among other areas.

Connecticoin · July 1, 2006 11:00PM

The dealer thinks it should be a 62.

JRocco · July 1, 2006 11:03PM

<< 

<< Hey Stuart,
Impossible to answer without seeing the coin in hand, BUT... There is no way that that coin has enough contact marks to have been graded a 61 in my opinion. 61's are baggy pieces of crap usually unless it is an AU61 if you understand what I mean (and I know you do).
Of course there are exceptions and I am sure that someone can show me a coin to prove my statement wrong, but it usually holds water.
That said- that is a very nice looking coin and may be worth the price paid. >>

Grading is often about factors other than contact marks. Based upon the images, I'm guessing the grade is held down by the amount of cabinet friction/rub on Liberty's cheek, among other areas. >>

Agree 100% Mark, and hence the first line in my reply

BillJones · July 2, 2006 12:05AM

This is about as good as it gets for an MS-61 graded Bust half. At that grade level you can almost bank on the fact that the coin will have a rub and will be an "AU-61."

The coin has been dipped, but given that it's in a green label holder, it's stable, which is a plus, sometimes a BIG plus. One very aggravating thing is to have the coin tone ugly on you in the holder. That’s the pits.

It really comes down to weather or not YOU like the piece. I don't know what you paying, so I can't comment on that. It also depends upon your budget. If you can't afford more for a better one, or don't want to sink that much money into this date, maybe it's OK. But if the coin bugs you for some reason, send it back. If bugs you now, it will probably always bug you.

Barry · July 2, 2006 12:20AM

Stuart - I agree with the above replies. If you have doubts about it, send it back. Don't look for advice from others to convince you to keep it. From what we've seen of your collection, you have a good eye for quality, and if you're in doubt about this coin, there's a reason for it. Fon't let the OGH bias you. It's not going to improve over time.

Stuart · July 2, 2006 1:45AM

Thanks very much for the 15 replies providing sound guidance, that you were all kind enough to post to this thread. You are all people whose opinions I deeply respect, and whose guidance I greatly appreciate. Your combined posts have mirrored my thoughts, and have reinforced my decision to most likely pass on this particular coin.

Interestingly your combined backgrounds range from being astute experienced professional dealers with practical experience with bust coinage who have been "in the trenches" for years, to master collectors of high-end coins of high value who also possess those same seasoned observational skills, who also appreciate the aesthetic beauty of coins in combination with practical opinions on making value for grade purchasing decisions.

This all boils down to the fact that (in my opinion) this coin is an "AU-61", and Lava's following quote summarizes it as well as I cound (and more succinctly):
<< I can't see how anyone can respond with any degree of certainty without coin in hand, but just to mirror what you've shared, you paid 63 money for a 61 that you think is a 58. The Stuart I know would pay 58 money for a 61 holder that he felt belonged in a 63 holder. You are obviously an imposter; what have you done with the real Stuart? >>

As JRocco alluded to in his posts and as Coinguy1 stated in the following post quote:
<< Grading is often about factors other than contact marks. Based upon the images, I'm guessing the grade is held down by the amount of cabinet friction/rub on Liberty's cheek, among other areas. >>

I will phone my dealer this week to discuss this further with him, and to explain my reasoning for likely wishing to return this coin, so that he will have a better understanding of my purchasing criteria and my overall collecting interests to be looking out for other coins on my behalf that may be a better fit for my collection.

MikeKing · July 2, 2006 5:04AM

my impression is that most ms 61-62 and maybe 63's; ngc, pcgs or otherwise, are au's but that doesn't really matter
buy the coin and not the holder !!!

If your wondering about it now, what makes you think you won't be wondering about it in the future?
Personally, I like the coin, and I don't see 1834's that have much eye appeal at all. If I did, I wouldn't hesitate to pay ms money for an au58 labeled coin. The one you have, I haven't seen in person.
But if you have doubts now, if your at all like me, they will linger.

dizzyfoxx · July 2, 2006 5:08AM

I'm leaning towards passing on it. I'm not thrilled with the over-all look of it. Your 1799 on the otherhand...

BillJones · July 2, 2006 5:12AM

Look at it this way.

When it comes to many early coins and middle coin coins (though let's say 1850), a TRUE AU-58 with eye appeal is worth MS-60 money. It does not matter if they call the AU-58, 58 or MS-61 or 62.

On the other other hand I might be hard pressed to pay MS-60 money for a true MS-60 because they are quite often ugly as marsh mud.

Stuart · July 2, 2006 5:56AM

Bill: Thanks very much for your posts on this thread. I greatly value your comments, and Mark Feld's, as well as those of the non-dealer advanced collectors who have contributed to this thread.

I totally agree with you that I'd pay MS-60 money for a high eye-appealing AU-58 (and have) whether or not it is graded AU-55, 58 or MS-61, 62. However, I am hesitant and unlikely to pay MS-63 money for an AU-58 Capped Bust Half considering the significant market premium assigned to MS-63 Capped Bust Halves.

You guys have all brought up very helpful observations, and have provided guidance with which I happen to agree. Bottom line is that if one is not totally delighted with a new purchase, one should return the coin and move on to the next one. That is what I have decided to do in this case.

BillJones · July 2, 2006 5:59AM

Well now that you mention it, I don't think I would pay MS-63 money for that coin. It's got some eye appeal, but the date is really pretty common.

JRocco · July 2, 2006 6:06AM

<< Well now that you mention it, I don't think I would pay MS-63 money for that coin. It's got some eye appeal, but the date is really pretty common. >>

I agree with Bill on this one. Now if you see an early year bust, or maybe even a better year bust -like an 1820 - that looks like that.......

MikeKing · July 2, 2006 6:09AM

<< 

<< Well now that you mention it, I don't think I would pay MS-63 money for that coin. It's got some eye appeal, but the date is really pretty common. >>

I agree with Bill on this one. Now if you see an early year bust, or maybe even a better year bust -like an 1820 - that looks like that....... >>

mucho mucho moolah $$$$$$$

BillJones · July 2, 2006 6:09AM

<< 

<< Well now that you mention it, I don't think I would pay MS-63 money for that coin. It's got some eye appeal, but the date is really pretty common. >>

I agree with Bill on this one. Now if you see an early year bust, or maybe even a better year bust -like an 1820 - that looks like that....... >>

Yea, but you are not going to get an 1820 for 1834 MS-63 money. I've handled some very nice 1820 half dollars in AU, and I bought and sold them at well above the listed AU prices. You only realize how tough that coin is when you go out and try to find one.

JRocco · July 2, 2006 6:17AM

<< 

<< 

<< Well now that you mention it, I don't think I would pay MS-63 money for that coin. It's got some eye appeal, but the date is really pretty common. >>

I agree with Bill on this one. Now if you see an early year bust, or maybe even a better year bust -like an 1820 - that looks like that....... >>

Yea, but you are not going to get an 1820 for 1834 MS-63 money. I've handled some very nice 1820 half dollars in AU, and I bought and sold them at well above the listed AU prices. You only realize how tough that coin is when you go out and try to find one. >>

Once again - I agree 100%

Stuart · July 2, 2006 6:30AM

<< Now if you see an early year bust, or maybe even a better year bust -like an 1820 - that looks like that....... >>

JRocco and Bill: To follow-up on JRocco's above mentioned post on this thread, what are your thoughts about Capped Bust Halves minted in 1822, and perhaps specifically regarding the following coin that I recently purchased?

From what others have posted on another thread, this coin was cleaned probably many years ago, and appears to have retoned to a pleasing golden color, possessing significant remaining mint luster.

1822 NGC AU-55 Capped Bust Half -- Thread Link

1822 NGC AU-55 Capped Bust Half

lordmarcovan · July 2, 2006 7:43AM

<< Hey Stuart,
Impossible to answer without seeing the coin in hand, BUT... There is no way that that coin has enough contact marks to have been graded a 61 in my opinion. 61's are baggy pieces of crap usually unless it is an AU61 if you understand what I mean (and I know you do).
Of course there are exceptions and I am sure that someone can show me a coin to prove my statement wrong, but it usually holds water.
That said- that is a very nice looking coin and may be worth the price paid. >>

I agree- that is a helluva nice looking 61, and looks far more 63ish to me.

As to it being wiped or rubbed, I dunno. From what I see in the pics, I personally would be totally satisfied with the coin, but if the difference in luster or texture bothers you, maybe you should return it. (Edit- especially if it really is a slider).

airplanenut · July 2, 2006 9:04AM

I'll chime in... I don't like it. The obverse seems somewhat devoid of lustre, and the coin is obviously not original--it's just way too white. I'd holder out for a nicer one, personally.

fc · July 2, 2006 9:13AM

for an advanced collector, i could see them having problems
with it in MS.

but to an average grouch like me, that coin is wicked nice.
i would be proud to own it. but i never would because it is
expensive.

MikeKing · July 2, 2006 9:17AM

You know, I'm tempted to buy this coin myself. I've started growing fond of dipped lustrous bust halves. I used to 'hate' them, but after examining a few and pondering it, I decided to go with them. Actually, if the dip is good, you can have a really revealing and beautiful coin. I don't know what the luster is like on the reverse, photos can make it hard to tell. Some toned busties have great luster, some don't. Some dipped busties are drop dead gorgeous, a lot aren't, especially if they're lower grade and dipped or just plain over dipped or wiped too much before the dip. But I also have a few busties myself in the lower AU category that have been obviously dipped and are stunning coins in hand. I even have some busties that have hairlines from being wiped (I suppose) and they are so beautiful, I just don't care. Of course, I'm sure there are people out there who think I'm nuts and have bad taste, but it's another angle. Sometimes it's nice to see the silver!!!

777 · July 2, 2006 11:47AM

A beautiful coin but too expensive, I would send her back and hold out for the right coin, ms63 money is alot for a coin in a 61 holder..If resubmitted for an upgrade in the coins current rattler holder, I can only speculate that the coin might upgrade to 62 but not 63, Save your $1400 and the perfect bright white bust 50c will come along, Acquiring highend for the grade coins require patience, Acquiring them for the right money takes even more patience, After 20yrs , Im still learning this myself

MikeKing · July 3, 2006 11:10PM

I just want to add that >90% of the 50c busties on today's market have been dipped and retoned at some point. This one is lightly enough toned that you can see the silver and probably capture quite a bit of luster. Look at the auction history of 1834 bust halves on Heritige's web site to see what a nice looking 1834 this one is.

roadrunner · July 4, 2006 12:04AM

As Darin5 showed with his ebay 1878 seated half (PCGS AU58++), a dazzling colorful coin with nearly full luster can bring over MS63 money. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Reminds me of an 1831 MS63 PCGS Bust half I had about 2 years ago. It was so bright it was "odd." But it had 99% blazing cartwheel. At $1050 it seemed cheap. The $1100 I got for it was cheap too......based on where these have gone since. And it was not an easy sell either as many, many dealers passed on this one until it was shown to a major retailer at the FUN show.

roadrunner

Stuart · July 4, 2006 12:12AM

Update: She's on her way back to the dealer. Thanks again to all who posted to share your thoughts on this coin.

Happy Independence Day to you all!

oreville · July 4, 2006 2:48AM

Stuart: That 1834 looked ok to me but not PQ in any sense of the word. Had it been an piece dated in the teens, I might have felt differently.

Indeed, I am surprised you would not insist on at least an MS-64 or better for a piece dated in the 1830's since you like gem or near gem coins when otainable and close to affordable. When you get into the low mint state grades in this series, you are quite often better off seeking those lovely AU's that have character and PQ traits to them as well for a lot less money.

Just some thoughts.

Stuart · July 4, 2006 4:07AM

<< When you get into the low mint state grades in this series, you are quite often better off seeking those lovely AU's that have character and PQ traits to them as well for a lot less money. >>

Oreville: Thanks very much for your above posted quote, which succinctly summarizes exactly my Capped Bust Half collecting strategy. Seeking original high eye-appealing AU-55's to 58's.

tradedollarnut · July 4, 2006 4:31AM

I like the coin .... but I don't like the price. Before paying MS63 price for a super MS61, I'd buy a nice MS63 already in the holder and save myself some hassle.

Update: 1834 Capped Bust Half - PCGS MS-61 (OGH) -- I Have Decided to Return Her

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