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Non-hypothetical: You see a major rip in a non-coin auction
jonathanb
Posts: 4,055 ✭✭✭✭✭
Suppose you're looking at the catalog for an antique auction (or any other auction not coin-focused). One of the lots has a coin listed where the estimated price is too cheap by a factor of 100 -- say, for example, a high-relief Saint Gaudens listed at bullion value.
You believe that there is a real chance that the lot will simply be missed by anyone who is able to identify its real value.
The real value of the coin, if authentic, is way more than your budget would allow.
Plus of course there's no guarantee that the coin really is authentic, although the auctioneer is legitimate (they're not intentionally trying to defraud) and you might be able to return it under the auctioneer's authenticity guarantee if not.
You can't attend the auction in person.
The maximum your budget would allow, even though many times the high end of the estimate, would be a total insult to anyone who was qualified to evaluate the coin for you.
What do you do?
jonathan
You believe that there is a real chance that the lot will simply be missed by anyone who is able to identify its real value.
The real value of the coin, if authentic, is way more than your budget would allow.
Plus of course there's no guarantee that the coin really is authentic, although the auctioneer is legitimate (they're not intentionally trying to defraud) and you might be able to return it under the auctioneer's authenticity guarantee if not.
You can't attend the auction in person.
The maximum your budget would allow, even though many times the high end of the estimate, would be a total insult to anyone who was qualified to evaluate the coin for you.
What do you do?
jonathan
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Comments
<< <i>I send someone who is not "qualified to evaluate the coin." That way, I get a rip, and no one is insulted. >>
I agree with you, maybe Bo or Calvin are free that day.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>You believe that there is a real chance that the lot will simply be missed by anyone who is able to identify its real value. >>
You mean like finding that the 1860 dime in a lot of old coins had an 'O' mint mark that no one else seemed to catch?
What Would Russ DO?
Take the rip baby.
Hopefully, you remember the odds are excellent, that when something sounds too good to be true, it's not true.
<<The maximum your budget would allow, even though many times the high end of the estimate, would be a total insult to anyone who was qualified to evaluate the coin for you.>>
I don't understand that quote. If your budget is "many times the high end of the estimate", the budget must be hundreds, if not thousands of dollars. That should certainly be enough to avoid insulting a qualified coin screener.
I suspect the quarter eagle in the capitol holder was worth most of the $3,000 hammer.
<< <i>WWRD.
What Would Russ DO?
Take the rip baby. >>
Damn straight!
Russ, NCNE
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>..........and then you get it home and examine it under high magnification. You then see what appears to be the Greek letter Omega within the eagles talon.
The Omegas look real -- and actually are probably worth something. The Saint in that photo looks like it was picked up from Godiva on 5th Avenue.
Sending someone else is, in my opinion, asking for disaster. Unless an extremely knowledgable and a trusted friend.... and even then, they could make a mistake on authenticating the coin. If they are not a very trusted friend... they may just decide that they want to bid on an authentic bargain for themself!
Do it yourself or forget it. I've passed on many potential 'bargains' before.
If I could attend in person, I'd give it a shot. Otherwise, I don't bid on pigs in a poke.
<< <i>You mean like finding that the 1860 dime in a lot of old coins had an 'O' mint mark that no one else seemed to catch? >>
Well, yeah, that and the 1855 Gold $1 raw that slabbed PCGS 63, or the authentic George Washington inaugural button. Can't win if you don't play...
<< <i>I don't understand that quote. If your budget is "many times the high end of the estimate", the budget must be hundreds, if not thousands of dollars. That should certainly be enough to avoid insulting a qualified coin screener. >>
"There's a high-relief Saint Gaudens that I'm interested in, but I can't pay more than $3000". That's probably not something that's been heard in a while...
<< <i>The Saint looks fake. If it was real, I think Doyle would have noticed it.
I suspect the quarter eagle in the capitol holder was worth most of the $3,000 hammer. >>
Don't read too much into the hammer price. In the end, this was my logic:
a) If it's real and anyone notices, it'll sell for $10K+ and I'm not spending that kind of money anyway.
b) If this lot gets buried among all the other lots that truly had nothing but bullion value and sells for $1000-$1500, I'm going to be really pissed if I don't bid. Besides, the quarter eagle also looks interesting, and that square thing looks neat even if I don't know what it is. And there's got to be some gold in the lot as an absolute fallback.
So I decided I'd place a bid that would definitely win if the stars aligned and I ended up competing against only people who were in it for the gold value. I bid $2750. The bid increment at that level was $250. The hammer price of $3000 simply means that if one bidder had missed the auction, I would have had it. Aargh!
Would Doyle have noticed it? You'd think so, but the lots had nothing but gold weights. No description of the coins. Not even a listing of the dates, let alone grades.
Here's another lot that I missed entirely until I saw a five-digit hammer price and went back to look. The lot description says "Gold Coin Jewelry, I.D. Bracelet and Champagne Twizzler, Twizzler signed Tiffany & Co., ap. 290 dwt." Tiffany is worth mentioning but a $50 territorial gold piece gets no mention at all? Would Tiffany have created jewelry with a fake coin as a centerpiece? I suppose it's possible, but I have a feeling that this auction didn't pass through the Coin Department at all. I wouldn't be surprised if the Saint was real, and the slug as well. We'll probably never know.
<< <i>If you REALLY thought it could be real, and worth that much, you would find a way to attend the auction and scratch up the money to purchase if the chips fall right. >>
I really thought it could be real. Even if it was real, someone else would almost certainly notice. What were the chances that it was real and that my attending in person would make the difference between winning it and losing it? I can't jet all over the world every time I see a possibility.
It's fun to think of the "coulda been"s, tho...
jonathan
<< <i>Otherwise, I don't bid on pigs in a poke. >>
Yes, but have you ever poked a pig?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>..........and then you get it home and examine it under high magnification. You then see what appears to be the Greek letter Omega within the eagles talon.
The Omegas look real -- and actually are probably worth something. The Saint in that photo looks like it was picked up from Godiva on 5th Avenue. >>
I would love to own an Omega.
<< <i>Would Doyle have noticed it? You'd think so, but the lots had nothing but gold weights. No description of the coins. Not even a listing of the dates, let alone grades.
>>
The reason I thought Doyle would know if it was real, is I recall they recently auctioned a high profile collection (full page ads in the Numismatist, etc.), so I would think someone on their staff would have some numismatic knowledge, or know enough to consult with a pro for that coin. However, it is possible they overlooked this if the number of coins they had was small. Probably worth a shot for what you bid.
Is the double eagle real? There is no way to tell from that photo. The quality is way to poor. Even with the small amount of enlargement that has been done to it, it is already starting to pixilate. Pixilation artifacts can be seen on several of the coins in that photo. I didn't even recognize it as a roman numeral date at first, and I LOOKED at the date trying to determine what it was! If the images are that poor why bother.
If it is an Omega fake, it would still be worth around $1,500 - $2,000 I believe. The Omega is famous and popular and it does bring a premium.
The second auction referenced with the bracelet is another good example of their poor quality lot descriptions. If you can't be at the lot viewing to examine the lots in person then why bother with the catalog!
I really like their terms of sale as well. All lots are sold AS IS, and unless they make a specific statement of authenticity in the lot description you can not assume that the lot is genuine and hold them liable if it isn't. So unlike a major numismatic auction house, lots are NOT returnable even if they turn out to not be genuine or as described! The only thing they guarantee is that the title of the lot will be accurate.