See how the really big boys manipulate the Metals market

Bear · June 13, 2006 2:05AM

When the profit margins are under stress, why just sell tons

of the precious metals , that do not really exist. When the price has

collapsed sufficiently, you then cover your short positions. Thats how the

rules of the game are played. Of course we pipsqueeks get screwed as

is usual. Aint a free market economy just grand. In many ways, Las Vegas gambling

is more legit then commodities. At least in Vegas you know your gonna lose right up

front. When the collapse is all over, the big boys can play the game all over again.

coynclecter · June 13, 2006 2:08AM

That's how Goldman Sach posted DOUBLE profits this week. These are the guys Bush put in charge of our Treasury. Who do you think Paulson is REALLY working for.

coynclecter · June 13, 2006 1:10PM

Does anyone think that suddenly a lot of precious metal holders all around the world all decided to dump their gold and silver on the same day. This was a well planned attack coordinated by the gold cartel (central banks)with Goldman Sachs new Treasury Secretary coordinating it. All on a day when the president would be out of the country too. The average investor again has been had by believing that free market forces controlled prices. How many Billions will the investment bankers make off the little guy on this maneuver.

I wonder if they used wiretaps under the guise of "National Security" to help make the most effective attack. Now they will cover all the short positions they have been building and get ready to start the game again.

JLW · June 13, 2006 1:17PM

Grow up people, the "really big" boys control everything. Oil speculators are to blame for outrageous prices at the pumps, not just the "super greedy" oil companies.
Joe
BTW, I live on the central coast of California, the highest of the high gas prices in the nation!

chabot510 · June 13, 2006 1:18PM

i am working on the mercantile exchange and it is unbelievable how jsut one person can sway the entire market, especially so in smaller markets.

Connecticoin · June 13, 2006 1:20PM

<< That's how Goldman Sach posted DOUBLE profits this week. These are the guys Bush put in charge of our Treasury. Who do you think Paulson is REALLY working for. >>

Uh, John Corzine, Democratic Governor of New Jersey, used to be CEO of Goldman Sachs. Maybe he was in on it too!

ABC123 · June 13, 2006 1:22PM

Is everyone among us cynics, or merely disgruntled investors---Shylock, Merchant of Venice !

jayboxx · June 13, 2006 1:29PM

How do we know someone dumped a bunch today vs. the past couple of weeks as it has been heading down? Is there a ticker somewhere tracking gold sales volume?

relayer · June 13, 2006 1:33PM

Warren Buffet was allowed to cover his short positions with his stockpile of 48,000,000 ozs of silver.

But poor Mr. Buffet bet on a mathematical formula and poof - his 48,000,000 ozs of silver belong to someone else now.

Elcontador · June 13, 2006 1:36PM

Some index funds invested in metals via programmed trading. When the program said 'sell,' they had no one to whom to sell them so the market tanked. If you think this is nifty, learn about CDS derivatives. Irrespective of what happens in the market, I'm intentionally underweighted in the financial services sector.

relayer · June 13, 2006 1:40PM

<< ... learn about CDS derivatives. >>

I bet poor Mr. Buffet wouldn't endorse derivatives today.

BBN · June 13, 2006 2:28PM

So, does gold run 24 hours? I always thought it closed. I assume the market for gold runs worldwide thus it runs 24 hrs a day:

mrearlygold · June 13, 2006 2:35PM

I wonder if they used wiretaps under the guise of "National Security" to help make the most effective attack. Now they will cover all the short positions they have been building and get ready to start the game again. >>

BBN · June 13, 2006 2:43PM

I know for investors this isn't good but I guess it's good for us that simply want to fill up a very tough page in the Dansco 7070.

relayer · June 13, 2006 2:52PM

<< So, does gold run 24 hours? I always thought it closed. I assume the market for gold runs worldwide thus it runs 24 hrs a day:
>>

You can watch it trade here

Boom · June 13, 2006 4:20PM

BBN · June 14, 2006 1:54AM

<< 

<< So, does gold run 24 hours? I always thought it closed. I assume the market for gold runs worldwide thus it runs 24 hrs a day:
>>

You can watch it trade here >>

bookmarked! Thanks for the link!!!

curly · June 14, 2006 1:58AM

It just makes ya want to run off somewhere and sulk. don't it.

BBN · June 14, 2006 2:04AM

Looks like it's recovered a tad. It was down around $545 last night about 1am(Central)

Gemineye · June 14, 2006 2:20AM

Isn't the Gold I bought @ $700 worth more than the Gold now @ $545.......

coynclecter · June 14, 2006 6:13AM

No, the gold is the same and you've lost nothing if you haven't paniced and sold

Tarmac · June 14, 2006 6:30AM

The timing and magnitude of gold's drop look awfully suspicious. $40+ in one day on essentially NO news?

I know gold is a thin market for stocks but for bullion and futures it is not as thin. You can bet there was serious BIG influential money moving gold this week. And I will bet Morgan and/or Goldman were in the mix.

One day the smaller players will stop playing and there will be no buyers/sellers. If this was not market manipulation I don't know what is. I'm not crying as I sold out my gold holdings about a month ago but I pity those who followed Money magazine and other financial rags who recommending buying gold.

lloydmincy · June 14, 2006 6:45AM

Goldman and the banks do not want gold to do well. Actually, they want the dollar to stabilize and/or get stronger.

Another one I think is funny. Bought at $700, now at $560, but you haven't lost yet until you've sold. How DUMB is that statement???

I still have Enron stock. So I haven't lost yet, correct???

Speculators really pushed gold up. Of course, everyone thought it will continue to run up to $2000. Well, the speculators are bailing, and simply looking for the next thing to run up!!!!

YEAH, YEAH, it's the DEMAND. Right. Well, mining companies get to justify mining where they wouldn't before because of higher prices. More supply. Stock markets getting hammered in China and Bombay (India). Less demand, because losing net worth.

BUT: BUY AS MUCH GOLD AS YOU CAN!!!! GOLD IS GONNA BE A STEAL TODAY COMPARED TO A YEAR FROM NOW. YOU WATCH!!! BUY, BUY, BUY!!!!

I love Paulson, and still too many drivers on the road. Gas needs to go higher...

And gold is still.... expensive

coinpage · June 14, 2006 6:51AM

<< ... When the price has collapsed sufficiently, you then cover your short positions... Of course we pipsqueeks get screwed as is usual... >>

If you recognize the oversold condition created by the shorts, just buy silver not the paper, and hold on. You only get screwed if you sell at a loss.

Interesting Article:

TED BUTLER - Silver Default Looming?

ewitte · June 14, 2006 6:57AM

<< Goldman and the banks do not want gold to do well. Actually, they want the dollar to stabilize and/or get stronger.

Another one I think is funny. Bought at $700, now at $560, but you haven't lost yet until you've sold. How DUMB is that statement???

I still have Enron stock. So I haven't lost yet, correct???

>>

Enron is gone and burried. Gold still has value and all points to this being a temporary drop due to the market getting played. Things don't drop THAT much when the economic environment is virutally unchanged. So its pretty much true if you don't panic and sell your fine. The actual coin market isn't that far off anyway. I went on ebay looking for deals yesterday and today and pretty much everything is still selling way higher than I'd like to pay. Even the 1/4oz 2000 GE I have only lists a 3% drop and is still more than 3% over what I paid.

lloydmincy · June 14, 2006 7:04AM

Of course gold has value. $562 an ounce. If anyone wants to buy my gold at $700 an ounce, because if you haven't sold yet and thus you haven't LOST anything yet, please PM me.

TWQG · June 14, 2006 7:24AM

<< That's how Goldman Sach posted DOUBLE profits this week. These are the guys Bush put in charge of our Treasury. Who do you think Paulson is REALLY working for. >>

- you sound foolish.

relayer · June 14, 2006 7:30AM

<< 

<< ... When the price has collapsed sufficiently, you then cover your short positions... Of course we pipsqueeks get screwed as is usual... >>

If you recognize the oversold condition created by the shorts, just buy silver not the paper, and hold on. You only get screwed if you sell at a loss.

Interesting Article:

TED BUTLER - Silver Default Looming? >>

Great (and scary) article.

Next to poor Mr. Buffet who lost his silver betting on a formula, the Chinese government was/is also shorting silver contracts based on their holdings, but it seems they went overboard

fc · June 14, 2006 7:34AM

you sound foolish.

i do not think he sounds foolish. maybe you are too trusting
of our officials.

edited to add this blurb below. just as a reminder that people
are working together to screw you and I. to think a high up
official will not think about doing this is quite silly.

even clinton was caught up in scandals surrounding money.
he was our president.

Operation Uptick 3 was the largest securities fraud under-cover operation to date. In a ten month investigation involving the US Attorney’s office, the FBI and the SEC, it culminated in the arrest of over 200 people, the involvement of brokerage firms and a network of six organized crime families, brokerage firms, brokers and over $50 million in illegal proceeds. Tracking a period of more than 5 years it exposed a criminal enterprise that was able to bribe brokers and pension officers, compromise every type of market and law enforcement professional, inflate stock prices, and sell shaky investments through a significantly corrupted brokerage system. Most disturbing, its prosecution showcased the changing business model and modus operandi for organized crime and foreshadows the havoc that organized crime can wreak undetected in the securities industry.

coynclecter · June 14, 2006 9:11AM

lloydmincy

so you don't understand the difference between an item that has held value for 5000 years and paper stock in a corporation that claimed to have value. Maybe you should stick with the paper assets in companies woth 100P/E that pay no dividends, they need you.

Gold doesn't lose value, it is value. How many paper dollars someone is willing to pay this week based on market manipulations doesn't change that.

I won't argue that you might have gotten more for your dollars if you waited until the price went down, but the long term value of gold hasn't changed. In 10-15 years this swing will be long forgotten with the good old days of $3.50 gas.

roadrunner · June 14, 2006 10:14AM

I'm ready for another gold vs Dow wager. How about 12,000 Dow vs $600 gold again? This gold market has taken a number of major corrections along the way. Dollar-wise this one is "severe" because the drop was close to $175/oz (23%). May not be over either. But other drops on the way up were also close to 23% only gold was at $375, then $450, then $575. Gold is still going over $1000 so a $230 correction is sure gonna hurt when it comes. To the naysayers. This market is still young...and well manipulated. Regardless, the tenets are there for gold to do nothing long term but go up. It may take a few months or more to fix the damage.
But it will be fixed and gold will go higher. It hurts now, but it won't hurt forever.

How do we know someone dumped a bunch today vs. the past couple of weeks as it has been heading down? Is there a ticker somewhere tracking gold sales volume?

Check www.jsmineset.com for a few hints on the above over the past week. The usual naked short selling as NY closes is one way of shaking out the market when you have no $$ behind you.

roadrunner

Russ · June 14, 2006 10:23AM

<< Gold doesn't lose value, it is value. >>

And inflation doesn't exist.

Russ, NCNE

roadrunner · June 14, 2006 10:49AM

Inflation doesn't exist, the BLS (via the CPI) says so! Bureau of Laughable Statistics.

And gold is no one's liability. It stands alone. Stock certificates, FRN's, IOU's, derivatives, and anything else on paper is someone's liability. In many cases no one knows who the liability belongs to and what the amount is. Down the road that will be very clear.

roadrunner

CC2GO · June 14, 2006 11:11AM

It's already becoming quite clear in a new film documentary about gold,
eft's, paper money, BIG BUSINESS, & POLITICS!

CBS calls it the scariest movie you'll see this year!
Your ideas about a comfortable, secure America will be shattered forever.

THERE'S ALSO A 35 MINUTE INTERVIEW WITH THE DIRECTOR AT GOOGLE.

DOCUMENTARY ABOUT GOLD, MONEY, POLITICS, WORLD BANKS, THE IRS, BIG BUSINESS, AND A ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!

PLEASE! KEEP IN MIND THAT THIS IS ONLY SOMETHING I ACCIDENTALLY RAN INTO TODAY
AND I AM IN NO WAY ASSOCIATED WITH THIS MATERIAL! IT'S AN INTERESTING NEW DOCUMENTARY ABOUT THE IRS, MONEY,
GOLD, etc..... THAT I THOUGHT MIGHT INTEREST SOME. THE MOVIE TRAILERS AND INTERVIEW ARE QUITE INTRIGUING THOUGH.

KoinDawg · June 14, 2006 11:25AM

So what effect, if any, did this have on the World Series of Collecting? Especially those invested deeply in precious metals instead of real COINS?

RedneckHB · June 14, 2006 12:29PM

Why is it when people dont understand something, that the only possible explanation is conspiracy or manipulation?

Coppernicus · June 14, 2006 12:41PM

I'm 52 and I've traded futures since I was in my mid-twenties. Sure, maybe the "big boys" can move a market in the short-term. So what? Being long gold for the past 10 months (through mid-May) and going short a month ago means I rode the big boys' shirttails. Do I care if they're "manipulating" the market? Not in the least.

Successful speculation in the futures markets (for any commodity) requires an understanding of the market's dynamics, including the behavior of the "big boys."

Mike

keets · June 14, 2006 12:45PM

Why is it when people dont understand something, that the only possible explanation is conspiracy or manipulation?

because with precious metals it happens to always be true.

Coppernicus · June 14, 2006 12:49PM

keets - So who was being manipulated? Who were the conspirators and who were their victims?

Methinks many of you should stick to numismatics and leave commodity and financial markets to others.

Mike

lloydmincy · June 14, 2006 12:52PM

Ted Butler doesn't get it. First off, you can NOT sell short unless an uptick, and it is possible sometimes, with too many short interest, you can NOT get approval for short-selling. But who cares. I don't. Until you realize the market is manipulated in EVERY SECTOR, and EVERY ASSET, whether currency trading, commodity trading, bond or stock trading, you'll keep giving yourself a headache.

I have to work overtime now explaining why my asset allocations have gone down 8% since May 10th. Almost done with my calling. But I don't have to explain to a client they lost 25% in the past 6 weeks. (Gold).

I make way too much money working than spending time placing little gold bets anymore. Since the world is falling apart, I guess I'll keep my plans for tomorrow. Water ski in the morning, golf tee time at 8:55pm, and then back on the lake, doing some calling in mid afternoon. Then social gathering in the evening.

The U.S. is SOOOO falling apart...

keets · June 14, 2006 12:53PM

who was being manipulated?

everyone who was in at $700.

jayboxx · June 14, 2006 12:54PM

golf tee time at 8:55pm

Is the course lit, or are you using glow in the dark balls?

Coppernicus · June 14, 2006 1:00PM

If you were long at $700, then you don't understand this market...

Mike

lloydmincy · June 14, 2006 1:00PM

am smarty!!!

Only nine holes though...

<<If you were long at $700, then you don't understand this market>>

Typical Monday-morning quarterback. Maybe they sold at $720!!! But, but,.... If it's going to go to $2000, ANY PRICE IS A BUY TODAY!!!!

keets · June 14, 2006 1:18PM

gee, Mike, i wonder if you've ever lost money in the precious metals market?? or are you so tuned in that you're a step ahead of even the big boys.

keets · June 14, 2006 2:17PM

wow, did it get quiet!!!

ewitte · June 15, 2006 12:35AM

<< Of course gold has value. $562 an ounce. If anyone wants to buy my gold at $700 an ounce, because if you haven't sold yet and thus you haven't LOST anything yet, please PM me. >>

Only at the exact second you quoted. It could be $450 or $650 as little as 10 seconds later. BTW I looked for bargains (and continue) after the big drop and most certified coins are sitting pretty close to what they were a month or so ago.

Eric

topstuf · June 15, 2006 12:49AM

keets, yer gonna be in trouble with the guys who understand the "big guys" if you don't watch out.

Apparently you aren't on the call list of the biggest guys. Too bad.

CTcollector · June 15, 2006 12:56AM

buying low and selling high is not manipulating....

keets · June 15, 2006 12:57AM

what always gets me is the simple fact of the matter which was stated by Bear in the thread starter------When the profit margins are under stress, why just sell tons
of the precious metals , that do not really exist.

now, sing along with me, "Paper Roses, Paper Roses............................" certainly i'm saddled with my uninformed opinion, but when it's clear that this has/is/will always be(en) a situation where the physical commodity isn't in the possession of the "Manipulators" my opinion won't change.

BTW, wasn't that a Michael Jackson song??

mhammerman · June 15, 2006 12:59AM

If you haven't lost money in the metals market, ever...you're a wannabe.

See how the really big boys manipulate the Metals market

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