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Do you think the hobby appears cliquish and unfriendly to a newbie?
CoinHusker
Posts: 5,034 ✭✭✭
Just from observations and some personal experience do think the hobby suffers from a lack of influx of new blood, new ideas, new interests due to what appears to be an cliquishness and unfriendliness by both collectors and dealers? From local shows and clubs to national organizations and shows do you think there is a general hinderence in getting people to become more invloved in the hobby (in clubs, etc.) due to this perception (real or not)?
I read that thread on paranoia and it made me wonder if that too doesn't add to the problem.
You hear of clubs dying on a regular basis, and I know, how hard it is to join one that is made up of people who appear either unfriendly towards or disinterested in gaining new members. If it hadn't been for notlogical going to the meetings with me, I doubt after being a member for 3 years, anyone at the club would still know my name.
Or going to a local show, and not even being able to get eye contact, or anything other than a grunt to a question from a dealer who's shooting the breeze (not making a deal, shooting the breeze) with a friend at his table. The same is true at national shows where the average joe can't even get near a table with all of the dealer to dealer trading going on. I know it's business, but is it good for the hobby?
And even though it shows up here now and then (circle of trust), I truly appreciate the spirit and genuiness of this place. Maybe the annonimity allows a greater freedom to be friendly but both my son and I have learned, gleaned, enjoyed the hobby and made some friends here that seems nearly impossible to do locally.
Has any one else noticed this, or is it just me?
I read that thread on paranoia and it made me wonder if that too doesn't add to the problem.
You hear of clubs dying on a regular basis, and I know, how hard it is to join one that is made up of people who appear either unfriendly towards or disinterested in gaining new members. If it hadn't been for notlogical going to the meetings with me, I doubt after being a member for 3 years, anyone at the club would still know my name.
Or going to a local show, and not even being able to get eye contact, or anything other than a grunt to a question from a dealer who's shooting the breeze (not making a deal, shooting the breeze) with a friend at his table. The same is true at national shows where the average joe can't even get near a table with all of the dealer to dealer trading going on. I know it's business, but is it good for the hobby?
And even though it shows up here now and then (circle of trust), I truly appreciate the spirit and genuiness of this place. Maybe the annonimity allows a greater freedom to be friendly but both my son and I have learned, gleaned, enjoyed the hobby and made some friends here that seems nearly impossible to do locally.
Has any one else noticed this, or is it just me?
Collecting coins, medals and currency featuring "The Sower"
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You can see it on here alot. Some of the big-time dealers and collectors seem to go out of their way to make a newbie in the hobby feel like they are wasting time or money because they aren't looking at coins as an investment. And then, of course, you have the collectors who think that because you didn't spend a months salary on a coin, it should be less desirable than the one they paid $10k for. With the advent of the Set Registry, so many people get caught up in numbers, that they lose sight of the fact that this is a hobby.
At shows, you find a lot of the dealers aren't even willig to talk to you unless you have cash in hand and are ready to spend it all with them. The last 3 shows I've gone too, a good percentage of the dealers have the same old coins that have been traded back and forth amongst themselves. You can only look at so many Morgan $ before they all look the same. I like to collect toned coins, commemoratives, etc..........if I see something I like, I'll try to strike up a conversation if the dealer isn't busy with another customer, but if I get gruff replies or no reply, I move on. Some dealers act like it's a serious hassle to actually talk to collectors.........the ones who keep them in business.
<< <i>The same is true at national shows where the average joe can't even get near a table with all of the dealer to dealer trading going on. I know it's business, but is it good for the hobby? >>
Right or wrong, you have to remember that many dealers see this not as a hobby, but as a business and treat it like any other industry. While I agree it is very short sighted, this is simply a case of dealers taking the path of least resistance.
Remember, it takes no more effort to sell a $10,000 coin than a $10, but the payoff is far greater for the dealer.
It is, however, a sad state of affairs that this occurs.
Clubs in general are dying, not just coin clubs. Commute times are longer and longer, there are more entertainment options, work weeks are longer and longer. More time spent on the Internet means less time face-to-face.
If you go to a show during the busiest times, a dealer is not going to have much time to answer a newbie’s basic questions. Usually as a dealer you have to get to as many people as possible because there is only a limited window of opportunity to do business. At many shows the crowd peaks at 10 AM and gradually thins out until by 1 or 2 PM the selling day is pretty much over. If any new collector comes to me and has questions when I’m not busy, I’ll work with him.
BUT having said that, it is a two way street. I’ve had situations where I’ve spent a lot of time with people on more than one occasion, and they have never purchased anything. I’ve had people do nothing but pump me for information and free handouts of my articles and then had them run off and buy from someone else. One thing that can really gets under a dealer’s skin is to never purchased anything from that dealer, but then bring coins from OTHER dealers and ask their opinion as to whether or not this is “a good buy.” THAT gets very old very quickly. The bottom line is, don’t use people and then expect them to continue to give out free information to you.
As for the clubs, most of the clubs I’ve belonged to over the years have been welcoming to new people at least initially. The trouble is if you are a newbie and your interests are limited to state quarters or modern Proof sets, you are not going to have many stimulating conversations with the club members if their thing is ancient coins or areas that are limited to advanced collectors. Some clubs have members who just too advanced for a new collector.
As for clubs dying off, I think that has more to do with our modern society than anything else. If you are working in corporate American these days for a salary, chances are you working long hours. When you get home you don’t have a lot of energy to hop in the car and drive to a club meeting. The Internet has also cut down on club attendance as well show traffic and the amount of business at “brick and mortar” stores. All of these factors have changed the demographics of the hobby.
- a newbie
A lot of times I have seen older folks have absoulty no patience with younger people who have questions and simply want to learn.
However having said that I have met my share of folks who were nice and knowledgeable and willing to help me learn and talk with me as a normal person, not some sublifeform. My father in law especially is one who I owe a great deal for his help.
Honestly if it wasnt for my father in law, one or two dealers I have met and this forum I would never ever have entered this hobby. Believe it or not this forum is very important for younger folks. This type of medium is suited to us(them). It allows younger collectors to feel like they can talk and ask questions without being beat over the head or made fun of.
<< <i>(snip)
Believe it or not this forum is very important for younger folks. This type of medium is suited to us(them). It allows younger collectors to feel like they can talk and ask questions without being beat over the head or made fun of. >>
I don't ask "rookie" questions at this forum. I've seen too many instances of ridicule heaped upon people who do. In honesty, most of the ribbing appears to be done in good faith, but it might not appear that way to someone else.
information, good information is not always free. you have to
earn it. and if the reciever wants to heap ridicule upon you
while giving it, suck it up and pay attention.
they will, if the advice is good, while being made fun of, will
save you money on your coins. you will learn not to buy crap.
yup, they call it crap, and some coins deserve it. heck most do!
once you get this pounded into your head you will see your
collection in a new light.
be smart, learn how to grade, and grow thicker skin.
sometimes the grasshopper needs to be ridiculed.
<< <i>This is a complex issue, and it's hard to say if it's snobbishness or a clear difference in interests. >>
My newbie opinion would be that it is mostly a difference in the level of interest in the hobby. Collector mentality vs. business mentality. Some dealers, just by their nature, may come off seeming snobbish but I understand that if I go to a shop or a show, the dealer is on the job. He/she is at work. I don't have a lot of money - if I go to a shop with a hundred bucks to spend, I don't expect the dealer to bend over backwards for me if he/she is busy working or if there are bigger spenders there. Sure, anybody in a position who must deal with customers or potential customers should put on a smile and be try to be courteous but I don't expect more much.
If two people walk into a Porche showroom, one to buy a car, the other to buy a can of tire cleaner. Which person is going to get the most attention? Nothing wrong with that, the dealer's number one priority is to sell Porches. He doesn't earn a living by selling cans of tire cleaner.
But when the dealer IS selling the can of tire cleaner, he/she should be pleasant and to it with a smile.
More and more these days I find myself pondering how to reconcile my net income with my gross habits." - John Nelson.
QED
<< <i>All cliques melt with flattery and obsequious fawning.
QED >>
And smoetimes with a business card that says "CEO" - especially at the Big Boy tables at the major shows.
Kinda sucks, but it is what it is. I never have liked the "attitude", but it's out there everywhere.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
There are many ways to collect in today's hobby.
-Darksider
-Nickels
-Mercs
-Bust
-seated
-colonial
-modern
-proofs
-patterns
-morgans
-VAM Morgans
-Toners
Plus, about 1000 other varieties.
This lends itself to small cells of collectors, who share an interest, sticking to themselves.
Nothing wrong with it.
Just the way it is.
I have never had a negative experience with with a dealer or store because I was a newb.
I have had negatives because they were jerkoffs.
JM
There is for one thing location. In large cities there is a super non trust approach to anything of value so no one wants to get involved with a strager regarless of age. You must note around the Chicago area there are robberies, murders, rapes, etc and many from kids in thier early teens or younger so who to trust. There are approximately 50,000 cars stolen per year here, so who would you trust with coins? Many stores, homes, factories, etc have bars on the windows and doors, so who would you trust with a coin club? I've had many neighbors robbed of just about anything you could imagine. My son lost about $20,000 worth of tools in his garage. So who would you trust knowing you have coins. A newbie? Which newbie also carries a .38, .357 or .45 around here?
Then there is the ability to teach. Oh so many elderly people have a tendency to attempt to impress what knowledge they have instead of teaching anyone anything. On this forum so many times you'll hear a newbie ask a simple question such as is this a double die and end up with where in the Earth the metal for that coin came from. I taught at a Junior College for several years and found that it's not so much what you teach but how you teach that subject.
So it's not being unfriendly to a newbie but just an attempt to impress which just dosen't get appreciated as much as some think.
Availability of a product is also somewhat of a detrament to any hobby, sport, clubs, etc. Here we have so many coin, gun, knife, car, camera, sport, etc., etc. shows each month that the interest in any should be much greater. However, the crime rate deters from some of these situations creating a newbie none interest situation. Also, how many adults strive to bring a newbie, regarless of age to a coin show? Odd that there are so many adults with kids at car shows.
Then there is the comical answers to newbies on some of these coin related web sites. Not intended to be unfriendly, only to have a little humor in life. Some newbies will take offense though.
At coin shows around here I've noticed that most dealers treat YN's better than any adult. I've seen dealers either sell or give coins to a kid making a possible adult purchaser wait. One dealer actually told an adult to wait while he makes this great deal with a possible 10 year old for a $1 dollar purchase. The kid chewed him down to $0.50.
<< <i>Do you think the hobby appears cliquish and unfriendly to a newbie? >>
Definitely on the cliquish part. Yes also to the unfriendly part but I don't think it's overt, more like a perceived unfriendliness. I felt both as someone new to the hobby. As smiles said in an earlier post the hobby lends itself to cliques with so many speicalized catagories. I think once you figure out which of these cliques your collecting makes you a memeber of alot of the akward, outsider feelings tend to fade.
and no sense of humor either.
hi, i'm tom.
i do not doctor coins like some who post in here.
again, alot of this comes down to luck. there are PLENTY of people on these forums that a YN would be very lucky to have a mentor, or at least send the odd PM-question to check something or get an opinion.
I know plenty of people that have been turned off to organized sports in a similar manner, running into the wrong sort of coaches.
I guess the "pure money" aspect makes it a bit more common to run into profiteers in this hobby. All in all, Im happy I waited until I was "ready", and happy to have a few people here Im comfortable enough to ask a question to and trust to get an unbiased answer.
Another reason numismatics owes a TON of the BULL MARKET to the INTERNET as a sales/educational forum.
I do think that alot of dealers don't give me (younger people) the time of day at a show if you ask to look at a Saint or something like that because, that is a X hundred dollar coin..... Plop down a few notes and things change real quick however.....
<< <i>If a guy came to my table with bag over his head, I'd notice him, but I'd also be afraid that the next minute he's produce a gun.
No more or less than going to a coin show or dealer's shop for the first time with $50 in your pocket and a smile on your face. It just takes a while to get used to it...all the egos, the money, the BS, the rip-offs, the vast library of knowledge in the heads of the serious people. If you survive...it will make you stronger!
<< <i>"Do you think the hobby appears cliquish and unfriendly to a newbie?"
No more or less than going to a coin show or dealer's shop for the first time with $50 in your pocket and a smile on your face. It just takes a while to get used to it...all the egos, the money, the BS, the rip-offs, the vast library of knowledge in the heads of the serious people. If you survive...it will make you stronger! >>
More and more these days I find myself pondering how to reconcile my net income with my gross habits." - John Nelson.
open minded,will break in to the collecting circle just fine. If a newbie
is overly sensitive, arrogant or a know it all show off, then they are lost.
While we may appear intimidating, we all are very accepting of newbies
and forgiving of their lack of knowledge. It is knowledge that we are here
to offer. If folks are afraid to jump into the pool, then they will never learn
how to swim.
Camelot
in general yes yes
but if you go outy and meet collectors and talk to them you will find many friends true and good and lifelong
but it is a matter of numbers you got to go out there and work it to find the above
it will not come knocking at your door or kick you in the ass while you are walking the bourse
"but if you go outy and meet collectors and talk to them you will find many friends true and good and lifelong
but it is a matter of numbers you got to go out there and work it to find the above
it will not come knocking at your door or kick you in the ass while you are walking the bourse"
Excellent point. You gotta go out there and get some on ya. Coin folks are great people to be with and to learn from...they know how to conduct themselves and my experience has been that coin people are generally interesting, trustworthy, and pleasant to be with. In addition to the good things coin folk represent, they generally play hard and smart, especially when there's money involved. The hard part for newbies is recognizing an opportunity with someone and taking the opportunity...it requires trust and the desire to advance in the hobby. Newbs need mentors, if they are serious about the hobby. There are plenty of mentors around (in my opinion)...but they have to know you are serious before they will reveal themselves and you have to meet them first. So get out there and get some on ya.
Coin on!
Yea, verily. This forum is an example of a "virtual coin club." I wish I had time to take advantage of coin club meetings both to learn and to teach, but I'm devoting more time to my family and have little to spare. Perhaps after my kids have grown and no longer have time for their old man.
I don't think coin collectors are any more cliquish than any other group of collectors/enthusiasts. It's the same with cars, firearms, etc.
Obscurum per obscurius
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
<< <i>The last 3 shows I've gone too, a good percentage of the dealers have the same old coins that have been traded back and forth amongst themselves. You can only look at so many Morgan $ before they all look the same. I like to collect toned coins, commemoratives, etc..........if I see something I like, I'll try to strike up a conversation if the >>
Well its bein able to pick the cherries out of all those stale Morgans that makes the shows worthwhile.
Ken
<< <i>You hear of clubs dying on a regular basis, and I know, how hard it is to join one that is made up of people who appear either unfriendly towards or disinterested in gaining new members. If it hadn't been for notlogical going to the meetings with me, I doubt after being a member for 3 years, anyone at the club would still know my name. >>
Sorry to hear your local club has been rather unfriendly. We have started a new coin club where I live and are trying to avoid these problems. I would hate to think we have forgotten people in the club. I try to talk to all of the new people at each meeting.
I used to me a member at a much larger coin club. You would see the same people sit together at the same tables each meeting. They would never talk to others outside their table group. Some people are just stuck in their ways.
FrederickCoinClub
I am a newbie to the club circuit, so we will have to see how that goes. I did see a lot of older folks at the Omaha meeting and most of my dealings with coins have been me stopping in pawn shops, garage and estate sales or ebay and now the BST.
It's hard to get a feel for people, but the dealers I met at the annual show and around town are decent enough, but that speaks of Omaha and it's people. You know the midwest is usually friendly, even if we have our sharks.
There is a clique in the industry alright, but the one thing that is sooooooooo cool is that if you have a GEM or a nice coin, the rich and famous along with the poor and destitute numismatists can all appreciate it and even find common ground.
I don't have a lot of super valuable coins, but I like promoting numismatics just the same. Along my path, I try to pick up a cherry here and rarity there. I am so mix and match, my daughter always says : "you are so random"... I wonder what she means. But I do mix my indian cents with my wheatbacks (that sounds so racial) and I don't mind if my franklins rub up against my kennedys (that sounds so elitist)... Now, if they look like they are new, I pull them aside
But with people, I need to travel more and do more shows and I was even thinking of starting a TwoSide2aCoin franchise, with low monthly pay pal fees. We can all be friends
Will it work ? Let's do it. I got nothing to lose, but friends
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5