Anyone else having problems with milk spots on PCGS ASE's?

silvereaglecoins · July 18, 2005 11:09AM

I recently went through my current inventory of (170) PCGS MS69 silver eagles and found (65) spotted coins (about 38%). These coins appeared to be fine before but "turned bad" in the holders. I am absolutely certain of this fact. There seems to be some sort of undesirable chemical reaction with the coin and the internal holder insert itself. Has anyone else had the same sort of problem?

This is quite disturbing to me as I have a significant amount of money tied up in this inventory, with many coins appearing to be nearly worthless. Here a photo of my "worst coin":

Any insight on this "problem" would be greatly appreciated.

RobJ · July 18, 2005 11:12AM

I think many people are and PCGS says its the mint's fault.
I wonder if they are turning in the mint packages also. This is sad, as it is a beautiful coin.

ldhair · July 18, 2005 11:19AM

The mint package would be a roll.

FatMan · July 18, 2005 11:23AM

Yep, here is her sister.

UncleWiggly · July 18, 2005 11:42AM

I had a bunch of raw ones that looked great for several years. Then one day I pulled them out and they all looked like I had brushed my teeth over top of them. There's been at least one thread here discussing what PCGS is doing to find the cause of the problem. I believe they stated the have a scientist looking into it.

Jerry

dlimb2 · July 18, 2005 12:25PM

Does NGC have this problem with slabbing ASE?

wjd283 · July 18, 2005 12:35PM

My own belief is that they seal their slabs with smoething similar to superglue,and the fumes,sealed into the slab,adhere to any minute speck that may have been on the coin.But that's JMO.

I've also heard that smoe can be attributed to the "rinse"the mint uses on it's planchets.

If you want to nip this problem in the bud,you should rinse your coins in acetone before submitting them.

stev32k · July 18, 2005 12:52PM

<<If you want to nip this problem in the bud,you should rinse your coins in acetone before submitting them.>>

Or maybe crack them out and rinse in acetone.

AlixTCat · July 18, 2005 1:44PM

<< Does NGC have this problem with slabbing ASE? >>

I have an NGC ASE that has one tiny little milk spot too. It is not just PCGS.

Jonathan

Tonelover · July 18, 2005 1:55PM

No problems here.

Dog97 · July 18, 2005 2:00PM

I've had that problem too.
Don't worry, David Hall has said this is a problem they are aware of and that PCGS will take care of it under their grade guarantee.

Rena · July 18, 2005 9:07PM

Everyone,

It's not PCGS or NGC. I have a raw 95W that has been in the correct environment since Day 1.

I just pulled it out last weekend and guess what? Milk Spot.

Rena

CoinHusker · July 18, 2005 10:33PM

<< I recently went through my current inventory of (170) PCGS MS69 silver eagles and found (65) spotted coins (about 38%). These coins appeared to be fine before but "turned bad" in the holders. I am absolutely certain of this fact. There seems to be some sort of undesirable chemical reaction with the coin and the internal holder insert itself. Has anyone else had the same sort of problem?

This is quite disturbing to me as I have a significant amount of money tied up in this inventory, with many coins appearing to be nearly worthless.

Any insight on this "problem" would be greatly appreciated. >>

John,

There have been numerous threads about these @!&#!^!* milk spots over the recent months. I've posted a few myself after discovering, like you, 40% of my MS69 Registry set turning in the slab.

I posted a question to David Hall on the Q&A forum about the "milk spot" problem. If you would like, I'm sure his answer to me is still available over there.

I also appreciated your insight into the milk spot problem in relation to world bullion on the World and ancient coin forum. Thanks. If anyone's interested in that, here's a link:
Milk Spots on World Silver Bullion?

mhammerman · July 18, 2005 10:42PM

It has nothing to do with the slabs as far as I can see. My SAE's have never been in a slab and they have the same spots.

tanner520 · July 18, 2005 10:50PM

I have all 20 SAE in MS69 by ICG and 3 of them also have milk spots so it can't just be the enclosure, unless all TRG's are using the same "inert" material and glues.

rb7557 · July 18, 2005 11:49PM

I have also heard that this problem is from a bad rinse at the mint. I had several that turned and sold them off at ebay (with the milk spots listed in the description) due to this. I really hated to let them go, they are beautiful but I can't see collecting them if their prone to doing this. I had slabbed and raw coins turn. The slabs were stored in intercept shield boxes. So I doubt that the problem is caused from storage or slabbing methods.

Rena · September 11, 2005 4:57AM

And it gets worse...
The 95W in MS69 is up to 6.2K ( PCGS ).

I sold mine because of the darn spots and even though I did the right thing, it still breaks my heart.

Rena

2bucks · September 11, 2005 5:35AM

I have two questions....

Has anyone contacted the US Mint about this problem?

What can be done to preserve the coins? Will an acetone bath work? Maybe someone can do a before and after pic of a fix.

I have 2 complete sets of NGC MS69 ASE's and four out of the forty coins have spots. Ironically the worst one I have is a 1994, but not as bad as yours.

MrKelso · September 11, 2005 7:18AM

I have a 2001 that was slabbed by PCGS and incorrectly labeled with a 2004 tag, it has since turned milky in the holder.
The mint must have had a washing problem at some point in the past few years.

CoinHusker · April 22, 2006 5:09AM

TwoSides2aCoin · April 22, 2006 5:38AM

Those are bad, however... consider the price of silver lately. It's almost worth fourteen bucks.
Couple that with 20 dollars worth of plastic and you got a GEM for sure

TIMES WHAT ? 65 ?

~sarcasm intended~

kiyote · April 22, 2006 7:00AM

<< Everyone,

It's not PCGS or NGC. I have a raw 95W that has been in the correct environment since Day 1.

I just pulled it out last weekend and guess what? Milk Spot.

Rena >>

Owww...

kiyote · April 22, 2006 7:02AM

<< And it gets worse...
The 95W in MS69 is up to 6.2K ( PCGS ).

I sold mine because of the darn spots and even though I did the right thing, it still breaks my heart.

Rena >>

That's what I hate about being a collector.. you take an amazing coin like that and all collectors can see is "Milk Spot" in a neon sign three feet high.

BECOKA · April 22, 2006 7:25AM

These are covered by the PCGS Guarantee as part of the PCGS novelty is being able to buy sight unseen. If it is minor they will clean up the spots, re-holder and return. If it major like the one posted they will offer a fair market price minus the bullion value and send a check with the raw coin.

On the submission form just check other and write spot review. It can take up to a couple of months but that is nothing since they would probably sit in your closets anyway.

I have done this several times. The ones I have not sent back I have had for years with no problems so I would agree with some of the other posters that the Mint is not fully washing off residue of the die polish or something along that line.

KoinDawg · April 22, 2006 8:45AM

I have stored my RAW silver eagles in Air-Tites from the day I get them. None of mine show milk spots, not even 1986 which has been stored the longest. Does milk spotting occur with ASE PROOFs in PCGS or NGC holders?

BAJJERFAN · April 22, 2006 8:53AM

Yes, I believe that the spotting also occurs with proof ASE's in PCGS holders [can't vouch for NGC tho] I understand it is best to dip the proof coins to stabilize the surfaces before submitting them to the grading services. Many of the problem coins are the result of bulk submissions where this dipping is not done.

BECOKA · April 22, 2006 8:55AM

<< I have stored my RAW silver eagles in Air-Tites from the day I get them. None of mine show milk spots, not even 1986 which has been stored the longest. Does milk spotting occur with ASE PROOFs in PCGS or NGC holders? >>

I think the key here is air tite. PCGS and NGC holders are still allow the coin to breath so there are chemical reactions with air that still occur.

KoinDawg · April 22, 2006 8:57AM

Does the spotting occur when stored in DANSCO albums? I had mine in there first and noticed my 1986 was starting to tone around the rim when I moved them all the Air-Tites.

BECOKA · April 22, 2006 8:59AM

<< Does the spotting occur when stored in DANSCO albums? I had mine in there first and noticed my 1986 was starting to tone around the rim when I moved them all the Air-Tites. >>

I would imagine spotting occurs in Dansco also. What you described is toning which is fine. It's the ugly white spots that are annoying.

MrKelso · April 22, 2006 9:02AM

I have a complete set in an intercept shield book, that i just pulled out to look at, so far i have the 91,92,93,94,95rev,96,97,98rev,99obv all with milk spots on them that were not there when i placed them in the book. The 91 is real bad.

BECOKA · April 22, 2006 9:05AM

<< I have a complete set in an intercept shield book, that i just pulled out to look at, so far i have the 91,92,93,94,95rev,96,97,98rev,99obv all with milk spots on them that were not there when i placed them in the book. The 91 is real bad. >>

Looks like it is time to replace them.

I stopped collecting the MS ASEs and will only sell them if there are no spots. If I ever get around to getting the PCGS certified dealer status I will start sending them back to PCGS for other people under the guarantee just to get them off of the market.

BAJJERFAN · April 22, 2006 9:07AM

I believe that once the spots appear that they are difficult or impossible to remove.

BECOKA · April 22, 2006 9:09AM

<< I believe that once the spots appear that they are difficult or impossible to remove. >>

Not true. A quick dip and they are easy to remove. If the spotting is not too heavy, PCGS will actually remove the spots and re-holder the coin for you, otherwise it gets returned with a check. Not sure what PCGS does to remove the spots but the ones they sent back looked pretty good.

Edited: Above I said not true but after reading other peoples posts I would say sometimes not true as I have seen small ones removed from proof coins.

BAJJERFAN · April 22, 2006 9:28AM

HMMM, I thought that I remember reading here that they couldn't be removed.

edited to add: The inability to remove the spots without leaving evidence of their presence may only apply to the proof coins IIRC.

MrKelso · April 22, 2006 9:57AM

<< HMMM, I thought that I remember reading here that they couldn't be removed. >>

You may be correct, i just gave my 91 a bath in acetone and what i got for it was a clean coin with a lot of bad milk spots still there.

BECOKA · April 22, 2006 10:01AM

<< 

<< HMMM, I thought that I remember reading here that they couldn't be removed. >>

You may be correct, i just gave my 91 a bath in acetone and what i got for it was a clean coin with a lot of bad milk spots still there.

>>

What happens if you use MS70?

tggr · April 22, 2006 11:17AM

I have a set of proof 69 dc in PCGS holders thay have no spots at all also have a set of uncs with no spots.
Ray

BECOKA · April 22, 2006 3:22PM

<< I have a set of proof 69 dc in PCGS holders thay have no spots at all also have a set of uncs with no spots.
Ray >>

You got lucky. I Bought a complete set of proofs that has no spots but half of the singles I have purchased developed spots within about a year.

JrGMan2004 · April 22, 2006 3:34PM

I don't think it matters a whole lot how you store them... ASEs are prone to milk spots... why do you think PCGS is INCREDIBLY tough with the 70 on ASEs? They are scared to death that they'll make one, it'll sell for huge money, and then it'll turn in the holder and they will be out a lot of money when someone comes to collect on their guarantee... a quick dip when you get the coins is the best solution for preventing milk spots from turning... once milkspots appear, they are there forever... you cannot remove them without doing irrepairable damage to the surface of the coins... it has to do with the planchets not being properly rinsed before being struck... then that whatever is imbedded in the coin's surface, waiting for the right time to turn...

JrGMan2004 · April 22, 2006 3:37PM

<< 

<< I believe that once the spots appear that they are difficult or impossible to remove. >>

Not true. A quick dip and they are easy to remove. If the spotting is not too heavy, PCGS will actually remove the spots and re-holder the coin for you, otherwise it gets returned with a check. Not sure what PCGS does to remove the spots but the ones they sent back looked pretty good. >>

You are incorrect in this... milkspots will not come out... they have eaten into the surface... it may be more likely that when PCGS replaces such a coin, they go out and buy one from a dealer and give it to you... if it costs less to give you a check, they send that... otherwise send another ASE... how are you going to tell the difference? And on a modern, are you going to care that it's not the same exact coin, as long as you have the label that says what it is?

BECOKA · April 22, 2006 4:03PM

<< 

<< 

<< I believe that once the spots appear that they are difficult or impossible to remove. >>

Not true. A quick dip and they are easy to remove. If the spotting is not too heavy, PCGS will actually remove the spots and re-holder the coin for you, otherwise it gets returned with a check. Not sure what PCGS does to remove the spots but the ones they sent back looked pretty good. >>

You are incorrect in this... milkspots will not come out... they have eaten into the surface... it may be more likely that when PCGS replaces such a coin, they go out and buy one from a dealer and give it to you... if it costs less to give you a check, they send that... otherwise send another ASE... how are you going to tell the difference? And on a modern, are you going to care that it's not the same exact coin, as long as you have the label that says what it is? >>

I am not denying what you say but I sent in 20 2004 PR69DCAM ASE's and it looks very much like they just cleaned them up and re-holdered with the same tag. Is it possible that there are different types of spotting and we are talking about two different types? I actually recorded the locations of the spots before sending them in and on a couple you can see where they did not totally remove the spot.

Now these were in expensive compared to others I have sent in and the only order they actually returned in the holder with no check. I have several other lots that would have been much less expensive to replace then write a check but they chose to write the check.

Anyhow it looks like I need to do some more investigating to understand what I have been dealing with. I think I might e-mail PCGS to find out exactly what they do.

LanLord · April 22, 2006 4:28PM

<<Anyone else having problems with milk spots on PCGS ASE's?>>

No, of course, I'd actually need to own some to have problems with them.

All the SAEs that I own are RAW bullion and govt. packaging PROOFs.

CoinHusker · April 22, 2006 11:04PM

<< You are incorrect in this... milkspots will not come out... they have eaten into the surface... it may be more likely that when PCGS replaces such a coin, they go out and buy one from a dealer and give it to you... if it costs less to give you a check, they send that... otherwise send another ASE... how are you going to tell the difference? And on a modern, are you going to care that it's not the same exact coin, as long as you have the label that says what it is? >>

And the other problem with this George, is, the coin they send you as replacement (or any others in your set) may turn at some later date! It's Russian Roulette folks.

INXS · April 22, 2006 11:46PM

I have mine in a Dansco both proof and BU, bedsides a little rim toning on the 01 BU all are clean of "milk spots".

Anyone else having problems with milk spots on PCGS ASE's?

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