It's not yet exactly clear "what they get", at least not to me. That aside, even if someone is "gullible", "arrogant", "greedy", etc, as long as they deal honestly, they don't deserve to get screwed, or "what they get".
To clarify...if someone with coin knowledge buys a raw coin for thousands on ebay from someone they do not know because they are going to get a 'deal' [i.e. rip] and in turn they end up being the mark then I have no sympathy.
What comes to mind is how a fellow came here a few weeks back after being 'BlueMooned" on ebay. Trying to rip a lot of coin for pennies on the dollar and ended up with junk.
Is it fair? No. Is it right? No. But if one has an iota of common sense then they do not make those kinds of purchases without caution.
<< <i>To clarify...if someone with coin knowledge buys a raw coin for thousands on ebay from someone they do not know because they are going to get a 'deal' [i.e. rip] and in turn they end up being the mark then I have no sympathy.
What comes to mind is how a fellow came here a few weeks back after being 'BlueMooned" on ebay. Trying to rip a lot of coin for pennies on the dollar and ended up with junk. >>
I think the word that comes to mind is "karma".
If you haven't noticed, I'm single and miserable and I've got four albums of bitching about it that I would offer as proof.
Thank you for sending me he PCGS message board thread.
As concerning the assertion that I sold a counterfeit coin and the person had trouble getting a refund. I challenge anyone to come foward with that experience. He or she is a liar!
As for the rest I do make coins look better. As do nearly all other coin dealers. What constitutes whether a coin is cleaned or not is a matter of oponion. PCGS rejected thousands of coins as cleaned which they now encapsulate. If you don't like the coin don't buy it! I offer an uncondidional 7 day return policy. My return on counterfeit or altered coins(metal moved) is for the length of my life. I do not and can not run my business based on someone else's oponion. My opinions change! How can I guarantee somone elses?
Rick >>
Personally, I would have taken the time to craft a better response than this.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Thank you for sending me he PCGS message board thread.
As concerning the assertion that I sold a counterfeit coin and the person had trouble getting a refund. I challenge anyone to come foward with that experience. He or she is a liar!
As for the rest I do make coins look better. As do nearly all other coin dealers. What constitutes whether a coin is cleaned or not is a matter of oponion. PCGS rejected thousands of coins as cleaned which they now encapsulate. If you don't like the coin don't buy it! I offer an uncondidional 7 day return policy. My return on counterfeit or altered coins(metal moved) is for the length of my life. I do not and can not run my business based on someone else's oponion. My opinions change! How can I guarantee somone elses?
Rick >>
Personally, I would have taken the time to craft a better response than this. >>
Sounds like the guy's saying, "screw you, buyer". Disgusting.
As for the rest I do make coins look better. As do nearly all other coin dealers. What constitutes whether a coin is cleaned or not is a matter of oponion.
These sound like utter BS responses to me.... This forum is a wealth of knowledge!
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
<< <i>As for the rest I do make coins look better. As do nearly all other coin dealers. What constitutes whether a coin is cleaned or not is a matter of oponion.
These sound like utter BS responses to me.... This forum is a wealth of knowledge! >>
Don't you love it when dealers show their true colors? Well, you can't say you weren't warned.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
As for the rest I do make coins look better. As do nearly all other coin dealers. What constitutes whether a coin is cleaned or not is a matter of oponion.
More precisely, what constitutes whether a coin has been cleaned so badly that it is not worthy of being slabbed is a matter of opinion.
And as for making coins look better, that is a good thing, provided that the person looking at the coin knows what he is doing.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>And as for making coins look better, that is a good thing, provided that the person looking at the coin knows what he is doing. >>
and provided that the seller is HONEST and ETHICAL and states up front what has been done to a coin.
But it sounds like you mean..... when it comes to getting money out of the collector community's wallets.......let's throw ethics and honesty out the window, stick up for the party doing the screwing, and blame it on the ignorant collector.
<< <i>But it sounds like you mean..... when it comes to getting money out of the collector community's wallets.......let's throw ethics and honesty out the window, stick up for the party doing the screwing, and blame it on the ignorant collector. >>
Speaking of load's of crap.
It has nothing to do with "screwing" the collector. It about buying an ugly coin at a reduced price, make it look better, maybe even get it certified and sell it (hopefully) for a profit. These coins don't just get sold to collectors. They get sold to dealers too.
I can't believe this is a suprise to anyone. It's been going on forever and not just in numismatics.
what's surprising are the people that will come forward and stick up for someone that does this.......and yes....in the end it has everything about screwing the collector and taking our almighty buck.
From this thread and the fairtraderz thread, it's interesting how respected dealers' perceptions of other dealers can be so different from the collectors' experiences.
Why not just go into the wrecked car fix-up business then? Forget to tell the buyer about the car's history. I increasingly see no difference between used car salesmen and coin dealers. It's all about conning someone.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Why not just go into the wrecked car fix-up business then? Forget to tell the buyer about the car's history. I increasingly see no difference between used car salesmen and coin dealers. It's all about conning someone. >>
that's not as easy.....they'd have to get around the Salvage Title thing.....
<< <i>Why not just go into the wrecked car fix-up business then? Forget to tell the buyer about the car's history. I increasingly see no difference between used car salesmen and coin dealers. It's all about conning someone. >>
that's not as easy.....they'd have to get around the Salvage Title thing..... >>
OK, my apologies to used car salesmen.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>what's surprising are the people that will come forward and stick up for someone that does this >>
I'm not sticking up for anyone. I'm pointing out that this is part of the hobby.
If the improved coin gets certified is it OK then?
I don't see why it is wrong to make an ugly coin look attractive or at least acceptable? These coins will never trade at a premium and will almost always trade at a large discount. It also helps fill a niche for the collector on a limited budget.
Why don't we start a rant about NGC and what goes on at NCS, not some small dealer on E-Bay.
I wasn't talking about you ellewood although it initially would appear you are doing so....
There is nothing wrong with what you say. Go read the thread that I linked at the top of page 2. Now THAT is what is wrong.
That is total BS but yet we have people sticking up for this guy and ultimately to me that means that they are either promoting this type of practice or doing their best to sweep it under the rug.
Allegedly giving someone a difficult time on a return is a world apart from knowingly trying to screw someone over on a holed plugged coin referred to as "Smashed".
Hell I was going to bid on the Holed 1792 Disme until it went up over 9,000.00!
Elwood usually posts with common sense, so I am going to him the benefit of the doubt that he jumped into this thread without knowing the plugged 1794 Half story. And Andy is known to stir the pot a bit now and then. This thread grew legs only through plugged 1794 Half connection so I strongly suggest that everyone considers their future posts within that context. Otherwise, you may find your post to be interpretted much differently than you intended.
Of course dealers are going to put the best light light on their coins. Although I do find it refreshing when dealers I know point out why I don't want a coin in their inventory, I do recognize they have to sell it to someone. It's not food so they can't eat it. But when a dealer knowingly does not disclose a problem, and when asked evades the issue that is a serious violation in ethical behavior. I can understand where Richard Gross's reply to this forum as a stand alone could be somewhat defended. But when read with knowledge of the 1794 Half situation his statement is at best extremely offensive to collectors.
<< <i>Elwood usually posts with common sense, so I am going to him the benefit of the doubt that he jumped into this thread without knowing the plugged 1794 Half story. >>
Thanks guys
I didn't read the link on the 94 half but will go back and do so when I have a chance. I was just looking at the 1798 $1 listing. In that listing it does give the pedigree information and if a prospective buyer would take the time to look it up. It came from the Reiver collection and was described as bent. Which was not mentioned in the E-Bay listing.
My point was that the coin is much more attractive now and at under $5K for a 1798 $1 (R-4) in AU++ it would be more affordable for a serious collector on a limited budget. If this coin was in problem free condition it would trade in the $10K+ range. Maybe even more if it is in the Condition Census catagory. Maybe the bend is even gone now
<< <i>Why not just go into the wrecked car fix-up business then? Forget to tell the buyer about the car's history. I increasingly see no difference between used car salesmen and coin dealers. It's all about conning someone. >>
that's not as easy.....they'd have to get around the Salvage Title thing..... >>
OK, my apologies to used car salesmen. >>
Yeah... Who are you to compare used car salesmenn to coin dealers, and have the car salesmen look better?
The bottom line is that the seller, Rick, in this case, or someone else has purchased a coin and improved it.
He offers it on Ebay. Someone purchases it. If they do not like it, they can return it.
Rick is not a crook anymore than any other person who may improve a coin.
He is an experienced numismatist and happens to specialize in early American coins.
The people who continue to berate him just do not understand that he is making a living buying and selling coins. He is not out to defraud anyone. The purchaser of the 1794 half happens to be delighted with it.
If a dealer buys something at public auction and resells it for more money, does that make him a crook??
I have made absolute RIPS at public auction sale because something was raw or was mis-described.
Since when are the TPG's perfect? If all of the coins that were in the Reiver sale were properly described by the encapsulating company, there would not have been an opportunity to purchase mis-described coins and re-sell them at a profit. Ask any dealer who purchased coins in the Reiver sale, or any other major sale and ask them if there were not some unusual opportunities at the sale.
Only perfect people may respond to this.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
that is NOT the bottom line in the thread that I linked on page 2 and yet you try and throw this "spin" on things.
so, "Smashed" now is defined as Previously Holed and Plugged if you are able to read between the lines? and now you would say that by listing a coin and NOT noting that it was HOLED and PLUGGED is not outright deception?????????????
Here's something that's very evident here on these boards especially lately. Dealers do not like it when collectors learn some of your dirty little secrets and tricks and expose them for everyone to see.
No one denies that all coins have value. The crux of the problem to me is not the return that was initially the topic of this thread but rather the ebay listing. That thread alone speaks volumes, at least to me. Each time that you or anyone else now tries to spin and justify those actions just reflects poorly on you IMO.
The bottom line is that the seller, Rick, in this case, or someone else has purchased a coin and improved it.
He offers it on Ebay. Someone purchases it. If they do not like it, they can return it.
Rick is not a crook anymore than any other person who may improve a coin.
He is an experienced numismatist and happens to specialize in early American coins.
The people who continue to berate him just do not understand that he is making a living buying and selling coins. He is not out to defraud anyone. The purchaser of the 1794 half happens to be delighted with it.
If a dealer buys something at public auction and resells it for more money, does that make him a crook??
I have made absolute RIPS at public auction sale because something was raw or was mis-described.
Since when are the TPG's perfect? If all of the coins that were in the Reiver sale were properly described by the encapsulating company, there would not have been an opportunity to purchase mis-described coins and re-sell them at a profit. Ask any dealer who purchased coins in the Reiver sale, or any other major sale and ask them if there were not some unusual opportunities at the sale.
Only perfect people may respond to this. >>
Hopefully it was obvious sarcasm, my remark about "perfect" TPG's. Tongue-in-cheek. J/K.
Misrepresentation of a holed coin is just plain wrong. Your friend may be a great guy; his actions are, apparently, not.
Wow! I am getting dizzy with all the spinning going on here.
I will say this, nothing surprises me about what the majority of dealers will do or say to get a sale. I don't give a rip if they are ANA, PNG, PCGS, NGC or just BS! It's just an alphabet soup to substantiate legitimacy. I don't care how stellar the reputation. There are few 'ethics' in the coin world.
The people who continue to berate him just do not understand that he is making a living buying and selling coins. He is not out to defraud anyone. The purchaser of the 1794 half happens to be delighted with it.
I think we all understand Mr. Gross is trying to make a living but at who's expense? The purchaser of the half may be delighted with the coin today but did he get a full disclosure. Do all coins get a full disclosure? I emphatically say they do not. Will the buyer be in for a rude awakening when he goes to sell the coin and ends up on CU pleading his case? It's a world of buyer beware and as some alluded, like the used car market.
It really is amusing watching some dealers profess their expertise [which is legitimate in many instances] but when caught trying to pull a fast one they plead ignorance. How can you have a gazillion years of experience as a dealer, travel to dozens of shows per year, close millions of dollars in sales and then say you are not aware of an 'engineered' coin or simply forgot to mention it? I will remind readers we are talking about coins costing thousands.
This has no credibility just like the CEO and CFO of Enron saying they were not aware of what was happening. Huh? You are in charge and paid millions to not know what's going on?
These vignettes only reenforce my decision last year to slowly liquidate my collection and hang onto a token few modest coins. I don't know about the rest of you but getting ripped off, mislead and lied to is not worth it. These days I spend more on coin books, magazines, journals and literature than coins.
<< <i>Misrepresentation of a holed coin is just plain wrong. >>
I have not read many of the posts to this or the other thread(s), or the Ebay listing(s) in question. However, if a coin that was known by any seller to have been holed and/or repaired was not listed/described as such, that, to me, is obvious and inexcusable misrepresentation, period. And, while I like and respect Julian, I think his post above either missed or ignored the paramount misrepresentation issue altogether.
<< <i>Misrepresentation of a holed coin is just plain wrong. >>
I have not read many of the posts to this or the other thread(s), or the Ebay listing(s) in question. However, if a coin that was known by any seller to have been holed and/or repaired was not listed/described as such, that, to me, is obvious and inexcusable misrepresentation, period. And, while I like and respect Julian, I think his post above either missed or ignored the paramount misrepresentation issue altogether. >>
Mark, you could have just quoted me from my post above.
Its sad to see a person, like TarMac, come on this forum and state that they have given up on the hobby. Back in the 80's I did the same thing because of the crap that dealers were trying to put over on collectors. Sadly the same, same is going on today. Same junk but just another generation of slim balls that have a bigger audience because of the internet and Ebay. Now instead of just trying to deceive a local audience they can try to deceive the whole world and knowing do it.
Those who come on to this board and stick up for their fellow buddys, who have got caught doing unethical deals, need to take a couple of steps back and look at what they are really doing. Maybe most of the defenders are so old that now it does not matter to them if newer collectors stay within the hobby to support them in the future. If this is so then these older dealers just need to get the hell out of the business and let the young lions, who may or may not have any ethics, take over.
Everyone talks about grading as the main topic witin this hobby/scam most of the time. It sure looks like the focus should switch from grading to the ethical behavior of participants within the hobby. New collectors should not be told to seek grading prowness but to seek dealer ethic prowness first and then grading prowness after they have mastered the former.
Tarmac I see that you are from Seattle. With some of the real pieces of work that you have in your area I can see why you made the decision you did. A couple of these pieces of work were at one time on the PNNA board. Heck for all I know they still could be.
I have not been able to see the Ebay listing for the 1794 half. The link does not work. Would someone be kind enough to email it to me, jmlbc@comcast.net, or post it here.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
mrearlygold - You started this thread. How about some details? What is the allegedly counterfeit coin that Rick refused to take back? Did Rick explain why he wouldn't take the coin back? How do we know it's counterfeit?
And to the rest of the lynch mob, it's a mistake to think that my asking these questions is tantamount to an endorsement of all of Rick's past and present activities. In fact, I can't think of anyone in the business that I would endorse to that extent, myself included.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Careful, Andy - saying there are two sides to every story and that you've never had a problem with smoe dealer will get you tarred and feathered around here....
<< <i>Wow. I stayed away from posting as I'm not a fan of personalizing opinions in public of folks when the actual evidence is not presented along with the opinions and real damage can be done. However, Mr. Gross did himself no favor or many other dealers with his statement and attitude. It seems rather cavalier and I don't recall off-hand his eBay ads where he described coins as "made to look better". Too bad. >>
Yes, shame on him for lifting back the curtain? Seemed like a direct and honest answer at the expense of not providing us happy talk.
All other Dealers willing to do so take one step forward.
Yeah... I didn't think so. >>
I read all 4 pages of this before deciding, this sums it up completely
<< <i>what's surprising are the people that will come forward and stick up for someone that does this >>
I'm not sticking up for anyone. I'm pointing out that this is part of the hobby.
If the improved coin gets certified is it OK then?. >>
I don't think the issue was that the coin got "improved". The issue is that the person doing the "improvement" didn't state that upfront, and instead posited an explanation that he knew to be false.
Is it standard process to take a coin you buy for one grade and try to slab it and sell it as another grade? Sure it is. But a coin's grade is subjective, within certain parameters. (No one's going to mistake an MS-65 coin for VF-30, if they know what both those terms mean.) Selling a coin as unholed when you know for a fact that you've repaired a hole, and attributing its appearance to something else, is no different from selling a car with repaired damage and not disclosing that.
There really needs to be an enhanced sense of shame among coin dealers, to dissuade them from engaging in these kinds of practices.
If you haven't noticed, I'm single and miserable and I've got four albums of bitching about it that I would offer as proof.
Bhartman35 said-- "it's no different that selling a car with repaired damage and not dicslosing that"
Car dealers are only required to disclose repaired frame damage, flood damage, or reclaimed totals. Everything else is either a great new paint job, or it's restored....
Interesting thread (and the related ones). My comment to all of this is an offshoot of what ER posted: " ...misrepresent it to deceive the buyer, you are scum ... "
Well, here in Mississippi we call a spade a spade; and misrepresentation with intent to deceive is FRAUD and there's no gray area.
Well it's a relief to know that altering a coin = moving metal. Therefore cleaning, pickling, puttying, thumbing, adding toning, and other misc. methods are not technically alterations and of little concern on ebay. Thanks for clearing that up.
<< <i>.Therefore cleaning, pickling, puttying, thumbing, adding toning, and other misc. methods are not technically alterations and of little concern on ebay. Thanks for clearing that up.
roadrunner >>
What is pickling? Same process as picking a cucumber?
<< <i>Car dealers are only required to disclose repaired frame damage, flood damage, or reclaimed totals. Everything else is either a great new paint job, or it's restored.... >>
A coin dealer is like a car dealer in that either one can follow you into a revolving door and come out ahead of you
I do not have any comments regarding Richard Gross as a dealer. I cannot comment on his transaction discussed here unless we get more information about this transaction. In this regard, I agree with MrEureka completely. Lets get the facts first before we condemn.
My general comments:
I would rather have a dealer selling a coin disclose all the faults of the coin he is aware of including disclosing all of his efforts to make the coin "look better" so that it nearly eliminates any chance of my being disappointed with the coin. In my view, it makes the coin initially less saleable but ultimately result in customers trusting such seller even more. Naturally many dealers including Rick might consider this approach to selling a marketing "gimmick."
On the other hand what disturbs me here is Rick's reply in this area:
<< <i>........As for the rest I do make coins look better. As do nearly all other coin dealers........... >>
Julian and MrEureka: Where do you fall within Rick's assertion? Also, do you agree that nearly all other dealers make their coins look better?
Comments
Actually, Rick, it can be done. Not that I'm advocating it, of course.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
To clarify...if someone with coin knowledge buys a raw coin for thousands on ebay from someone they do not know because they are going to get a 'deal' [i.e. rip] and in turn they end up being the mark then I have no sympathy.
What comes to mind is how a fellow came here a few weeks back after being 'BlueMooned" on ebay. Trying to rip a lot of coin for pennies on the dollar and ended up with junk.
Is it fair? No. Is it right? No. But if one has an iota of common sense then they do not make those kinds of purchases without caution.
<< <i>To clarify...if someone with coin knowledge buys a raw coin for thousands on ebay from someone they do not know because they are going to get a 'deal' [i.e. rip] and in turn they end up being the mark then I have no sympathy.
What comes to mind is how a fellow came here a few weeks back after being 'BlueMooned" on ebay. Trying to rip a lot of coin for pennies on the dollar and ended up with junk. >>
I think the word that comes to mind is "karma".
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>Rick sent me his response:
Dear Julian,
Thank you for sending me he PCGS message board thread.
As concerning the assertion that I sold a counterfeit coin and the person had trouble getting a refund.
I challenge anyone to come foward with that experience. He or she is a liar!
As for the rest I do make coins look better. As do nearly all other coin dealers.
What constitutes whether a coin is cleaned or not is a matter of oponion.
PCGS rejected thousands of coins as cleaned which they now encapsulate.
If you don't like the coin don't buy it!
I offer an uncondidional 7 day return policy.
My return on counterfeit or altered coins(metal moved) is for the length of my life.
I do not and can not run my business based on someone else's oponion.
My opinions change! How can I guarantee somone elses?
Rick >>
Personally, I would have taken the time to craft a better response than this.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>
<< <i>Rick sent me his response:
Dear Julian,
Thank you for sending me he PCGS message board thread.
As concerning the assertion that I sold a counterfeit coin and the person had trouble getting a refund.
I challenge anyone to come foward with that experience. He or she is a liar!
As for the rest I do make coins look better. As do nearly all other coin dealers.
What constitutes whether a coin is cleaned or not is a matter of oponion.
PCGS rejected thousands of coins as cleaned which they now encapsulate.
If you don't like the coin don't buy it!
I offer an uncondidional 7 day return policy.
My return on counterfeit or altered coins(metal moved) is for the length of my life.
I do not and can not run my business based on someone else's oponion.
My opinions change! How can I guarantee somone elses?
Rick >>
Personally, I would have taken the time to craft a better response than this. >>
Sounds like the guy's saying, "screw you, buyer". Disgusting.
What constitutes whether a coin is cleaned or not is a matter of oponion.
These sound like utter BS responses to me.... This forum is a wealth of knowledge!
Thank God for totally infallible TPG's, here to protect us little guys from ourselves
His response sounded like "leave me the hell alone!"
Okee - dokee, will do.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>As for the rest I do make coins look better. As do nearly all other coin dealers.
What constitutes whether a coin is cleaned or not is a matter of oponion.
These sound like utter BS responses to me.... This forum is a wealth of knowledge!
Don't you love it when dealers show their true colors? Well, you can't say you weren't warned.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
What constitutes whether a coin is cleaned or not is a matter of oponion.
More precisely, what constitutes whether a coin has been cleaned so badly that it is not worthy of being slabbed is a matter of opinion.
And as for making coins look better, that is a good thing, provided that the person looking at the coin knows what he is doing.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>And as for making coins look better, that is a good thing, provided that the person looking at the coin knows what he is doing. >>
and provided that the seller is HONEST and ETHICAL and states up front what has been done to a coin.
But it sounds like you mean..... when it comes to getting money out of the collector community's wallets.......let's throw ethics and honesty out the window, stick up for the party doing the screwing, and blame it on the ignorant collector.
What a load of pure crap.
<< <i>But it sounds like you mean..... when it comes to getting money out of the collector community's wallets.......let's throw ethics and honesty out the window, stick up for the party doing the screwing, and blame it on the ignorant collector. >>
Speaking of load's of crap.
It has nothing to do with "screwing" the collector. It about buying an ugly coin at a reduced price, make it look better, maybe even get it certified
I can't believe this is a suprise to anyone. It's been going on forever and not just in numismatics.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Why not just go into the wrecked car fix-up business then? Forget to tell the buyer about the car's history. I increasingly see no difference between used car salesmen and coin dealers. It's all about conning someone. >>
that's not as easy.....they'd have to get around the Salvage Title thing.....
<< <i>
<< <i>Why not just go into the wrecked car fix-up business then? Forget to tell the buyer about the car's history. I increasingly see no difference between used car salesmen and coin dealers. It's all about conning someone. >>
that's not as easy.....they'd have to get around the Salvage Title thing.....
OK, my apologies to used car salesmen.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>what's surprising are the people that will come forward and stick up for someone that does this >>
I'm not sticking up for anyone. I'm pointing out that this is part of the hobby.
If the improved coin gets certified is it OK then?
I don't see why it is wrong to make an ugly coin look attractive or at least acceptable? These coins will never trade at a premium and will almost always trade at a large discount. It also helps fill a niche for the collector on a limited budget.
Why don't we start a rant about NGC and what goes on at NCS, not some small dealer on E-Bay.
There is nothing wrong with what you say. Go read the thread that I linked at the top of page 2. Now THAT is what is wrong.
That is total BS but yet we have people sticking up for this guy and ultimately to me that means that they are either promoting this type of practice or doing their best to sweep it under the rug.
Allegedly giving someone a difficult time on a return is a world apart from knowingly trying to screw someone over on a holed plugged coin referred to as "Smashed".
Hell I was going to bid on the Holed 1792 Disme until it went up over 9,000.00!
Of course dealers are going to put the best light light on their coins. Although I do find it refreshing when dealers I know point out why I don't want a coin in their inventory, I do recognize they have to sell it to someone. It's not food so they can't eat it. But when a dealer knowingly does not disclose a problem, and when asked evades the issue that is a serious violation in ethical behavior. I can understand where Richard Gross's reply to this forum as a stand alone could be somewhat defended. But when read with knowledge of the 1794 Half situation his statement is at best extremely offensive to collectors.
<< <i>Elwood usually posts with common sense, so I am going to him the benefit of the doubt that he jumped into this thread without knowing the plugged 1794 Half story. >>
Thanks guys
I didn't read the link on the 94 half but will go back and do so when I have a chance. I was just looking at the 1798 $1 listing. In that listing it does give the pedigree information and if a prospective buyer would take the time to look it up. It came from the Reiver collection and was described as bent. Which was not mentioned in the E-Bay listing.
My point was that the coin is much more attractive now and at under $5K for a 1798 $1 (R-4) in AU++ it would be more affordable for a serious collector on a limited budget. If this coin was in problem free condition it would trade in the $10K+ range. Maybe even more if it is in the Condition Census catagory. Maybe the bend is even gone now
The left obverse field and/or the right reverse field looks to me like it MAY have evidence of a plug job. Looks like it was scrubbed to death anyway.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Why not just go into the wrecked car fix-up business then? Forget to tell the buyer about the car's history. I increasingly see no difference between used car salesmen and coin dealers. It's all about conning someone. >>
that's not as easy.....they'd have to get around the Salvage Title thing.....
OK, my apologies to used car salesmen. >>
Yeah... Who are you to compare used car salesmenn to coin dealers, and have the car salesmen look better?
ROTFLMFAO!
:LOL
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Not all coins are perfect.
Very few old American coins are perfect.
The bottom line is that the seller, Rick, in this case, or someone else has purchased a coin and improved it.
He offers it on Ebay. Someone purchases it. If they do not like it, they can return it.
Rick is not a crook anymore than any other person who may improve a coin.
He is an experienced numismatist and happens to specialize in early American coins.
The people who continue to berate him just do not understand that he is making a living buying and selling coins. He is not out to defraud anyone. The purchaser of the 1794 half happens to be delighted with it.
If a dealer buys something at public auction and resells it for more money, does that make him a crook??
I have made absolute RIPS at public auction sale because something was raw or was mis-described.
Since when are the TPG's perfect? If all of the coins that were in the Reiver sale were properly described by the encapsulating company, there would not have been an opportunity to purchase mis-described coins and re-sell them at a profit. Ask any dealer who purchased coins in the Reiver sale, or any other major sale and ask them if there were not some unusual opportunities at the sale.
Only perfect people may respond to this.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
so, "Smashed" now is defined as Previously Holed and Plugged if you are able to read between the lines? and now you would say that by listing a coin and NOT noting that it was HOLED and PLUGGED is not outright deception?????????????
Here's something that's very evident here on these boards especially lately. Dealers do not like it when collectors learn some of your dirty little secrets and tricks and expose them for everyone to see.
No one denies that all coins have value. The crux of the problem to me is not the return that was initially the topic of this thread but rather the ebay listing. That thread alone speaks volumes, at least to me. Each time that you or anyone else now tries to spin and justify those actions just reflects poorly on you IMO.
<< <i>All coins have value!!!
Not all coins are perfect.
Very few old American coins are perfect.
The bottom line is that the seller, Rick, in this case, or someone else has purchased a coin and improved it.
He offers it on Ebay. Someone purchases it. If they do not like it, they can return it.
Rick is not a crook anymore than any other person who may improve a coin.
He is an experienced numismatist and happens to specialize in early American coins.
The people who continue to berate him just do not understand that he is making a living buying and selling coins. He is not out to defraud anyone. The purchaser of the 1794 half happens to be delighted with it.
If a dealer buys something at public auction and resells it for more money, does that make him a crook??
I have made absolute RIPS at public auction sale because something was raw or was mis-described.
Since when are the TPG's perfect? If all of the coins that were in the Reiver sale were properly described by the encapsulating company, there would not have been an opportunity to purchase mis-described coins and re-sell them at a profit. Ask any dealer who purchased coins in the Reiver sale, or any other major sale and ask them if there were not some unusual opportunities at the sale.
Only perfect people may respond to this. >>
Hopefully it was obvious sarcasm, my remark about "perfect" TPG's. Tongue-in-cheek. J/K.
Misrepresentation of a holed coin is just plain wrong. Your friend may be a great guy; his actions are, apparently, not.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
I will say this, nothing surprises me about what the majority of dealers will do or say to get a sale. I don't give a rip if they are ANA, PNG, PCGS, NGC or just BS! It's just an alphabet soup to substantiate legitimacy. I don't care how stellar the reputation. There are few 'ethics' in the coin world.
The people who continue to berate him just do not understand that he is making a living buying and selling coins. He is not out to defraud anyone. The purchaser of the 1794 half happens to be delighted with it.
I think we all understand Mr. Gross is trying to make a living but at who's expense? The purchaser of the half may be delighted with the coin today but did he get a full disclosure. Do all coins get a full disclosure? I emphatically say they do not. Will the buyer be in for a rude awakening when he goes to sell the coin and ends up on CU pleading his case? It's a world of buyer beware and as some alluded, like the used car market.
It really is amusing watching some dealers profess their expertise [which is legitimate in many instances] but when caught trying to pull a fast one they plead ignorance. How can you have a gazillion years of experience as a dealer, travel to dozens of shows per year, close millions of dollars in sales and then say you are not aware of an 'engineered' coin or simply forgot to mention it? I will remind readers we are talking about coins costing thousands.
This has no credibility just like the CEO and CFO of Enron saying they were not aware of what was happening. Huh? You are in charge and paid millions to not know what's going on?
These vignettes only reenforce my decision last year to slowly liquidate my collection and hang onto a token few modest coins. I don't know about the rest of you but getting ripped off, mislead and lied to is not worth it. These days I spend more on coin books, magazines, journals and literature than coins.
Officially a "No Spin Zone" now.
<< <i>Misrepresentation of a holed coin is just plain wrong. >>
I have not read many of the posts to this or the other thread(s), or the Ebay listing(s) in question. However, if a coin that was known by any seller to have been holed and/or repaired was not listed/described as such, that, to me, is obvious and inexcusable misrepresentation, period. And, while I like and respect Julian, I think his post above either missed or ignored the paramount misrepresentation issue altogether.
<< <i>
<< <i>Misrepresentation of a holed coin is just plain wrong. >>
I have not read many of the posts to this or the other thread(s), or the Ebay listing(s) in question. However, if a coin that was known by any seller to have been holed and/or repaired was not listed/described as such, that, to me, is obvious and inexcusable misrepresentation, period. And, while I like and respect Julian, I think his post above either missed or ignored the paramount misrepresentation issue altogether. >>
Mark, you could have just quoted me from my post above.
Those who come on to this board and stick up for their fellow buddys, who have got caught doing unethical deals, need to take a couple of steps back and look at what they are really doing. Maybe most of the defenders are so old that now it does not matter to them if newer collectors stay within the hobby to support them in the future. If this is so then these older dealers just need to get the hell out of the business and let the young lions, who may or may not have any ethics, take over.
Everyone talks about grading as the main topic witin this hobby/scam most of the time. It sure looks like the focus should switch from grading to the ethical behavior of participants within the hobby. New collectors should not be told to seek grading prowness but to seek dealer ethic prowness first and then grading prowness after they have mastered the former.
Tarmac I see that you are from Seattle. With some of the real pieces of work that you have in your area I can see why you made the decision you did. A couple of these pieces of work were at one time on the PNNA board. Heck for all I know they still could be.
Cheers.
Ken
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
And to the rest of the lynch mob, it's a mistake to think that my asking these questions is tantamount to an endorsement of all of Rick's past and present activities. In fact, I can't think of anyone in the business that I would endorse to that extent, myself included.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow. I stayed away from posting as I'm not a fan of personalizing opinions in public of folks when the actual evidence is not presented along with the opinions and real damage can be done. However, Mr. Gross did himself no favor or many other dealers with his statement and attitude. It seems rather cavalier and I don't recall off-hand his eBay ads where he described coins as "made to look better". Too bad. >>
Yes, shame on him for lifting back the curtain? Seemed like a direct and honest answer at the expense of not providing us happy talk.
All other Dealers willing to do so take one step forward.
Yeah... I didn't think so. >>
I read all 4 pages of this before deciding, this sums it up completely
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>
<< <i>what's surprising are the people that will come forward and stick up for someone that does this >>
I'm not sticking up for anyone. I'm pointing out that this is part of the hobby.
If the improved coin gets certified is it OK then?. >>
I don't think the issue was that the coin got "improved". The issue is that the person doing the "improvement" didn't state that upfront, and instead posited an explanation that he knew to be false.
Is it standard process to take a coin you buy for one grade and try to slab it and sell it as another grade? Sure it is. But a coin's grade is subjective, within certain parameters. (No one's going to mistake an MS-65 coin for VF-30, if they know what both those terms mean.) Selling a coin as unholed when you know for a fact that you've repaired a hole, and attributing its appearance to something else, is no different from selling a car with repaired damage and not disclosing that.
There really needs to be an enhanced sense of shame among coin dealers, to dissuade them from engaging in these kinds of practices.
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
Car dealers are only required to disclose repaired frame damage, flood damage, or reclaimed totals. Everything else is either a great new paint job, or it's restored....
Who attended Vienna today? It crowded as usual and I used my brief case as a weapon to get down the aisles...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
" ...misrepresent it to deceive the buyer, you are scum ... "
Well, here in Mississippi we call a spade a spade; and misrepresentation with intent to deceive is FRAUD and there's
no gray area.
roadrunner
However, there is a very sad reality to this...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>.Therefore cleaning, pickling, puttying, thumbing, adding toning, and other misc. methods are not technically alterations and of little concern on ebay. Thanks for clearing that up.
roadrunner >>
What is pickling? Same process as picking a cucumber?
<< <i>Car dealers are only required to disclose repaired frame damage, flood damage, or reclaimed totals. Everything else is either a great new paint job, or it's restored.... >>
A coin dealer is like a car dealer in that either one can follow you into a revolving door and come out ahead of you
I've read enough on the PCGS boards to cause me to ask you to please block me as a bidder.
My general comments:
I would rather have a dealer selling a coin disclose all the faults of the coin he is aware of including disclosing all of his efforts to make the coin "look better" so that it nearly eliminates any chance of my being disappointed with the coin. In my view, it makes the coin initially less saleable but ultimately result in customers trusting such seller even more. Naturally many dealers including Rick might consider this approach to selling a marketing "gimmick."
On the other hand what disturbs me here is Rick's reply in this area:
<< <i>........As for the rest I do make coins look better. As do nearly all other coin dealers........... >>
Julian and MrEureka: Where do you fall within Rick's assertion? Also, do you agree that nearly all other dealers make their coins look better?
Or, to quote the seller: "Does Not Appear To Have Been Holded And Plugged, Rather Struck 'Smashed'."
Ebay 1794 50c Item #8409180538
Coin Rarities Online
I doubt it. This one is an R-6 O-106. The other was a high R-7, I'm told.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.