Anyone know Richard Gross?

mrearlygold · April 20, 2006 10:35PM

Anyone care to share about this seller?

ms67rick

How bout this beauty?
1800 Eagle

goose3 · April 20, 2006 10:37PM

I could be mistaken but didn't someone on here sleuth out where he had purchased a holed coin and was selling it as "non" holed (after a good repair) on ebay?

mrearlygold · April 20, 2006 10:41PM

<< I could be mistaken but didn't someone on here sleuth out where he had purchased a holed coin and was selling it as "non" holed (after a good repair) on ebay? >>

Well the fellow I know apparently received a coin that was rejected by PCGS for having altered surfaces and had a heck of a time getting his money back

Edited to say that the coin was not a counterfeit but a coin that was rejected for having altered surfaces. The customer finally got his money back from his credit card company.

Julian · April 20, 2006 10:58PM

I cannot imagine Rick giving anyone a hard time if he sold a counterfeit coin. I have known Rick for nearly 40 years.

If there are any problems, I am sure that he will get them fixed.

PerryHall · April 20, 2006 11:02PM

Only an idiot would buy a coin like these raw on ebay.

Dukie101 · April 20, 2006 11:12PM

Only an idiot would buy a coin like these raw on ebay.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

curly · April 20, 2006 11:14PM

Never dealt with them but after looking thru their store, they appear to have some nice stuff for a pure collector. I think I would be willing to try one if they would be willing to slab it out to the grade they say it is. We might as well face it folks, TPG now rules the industry.

Thats my take on it anyway

Barndog · April 20, 2006 11:14PM

I've met him in person and purchased some half dimes from him on ebay. Never had a problem. His ebay pictures generally suck and I have been very pleased once I've gotten the coins in hand. He has a couple of loyal customers in the bust community that I know of, and the customers are usually discerning. His set-up at shows typically contain 90% or greater raw coins. He does know his stuff when it comes to attribution for many denominations/series.

DrWho · April 20, 2006 11:25PM

despite the favourable recommendations on this seller, can someone answer me:

why would anyone buy coins of this caliber without them being graded?

more to the point, wouldn't you want them authenticated, as in graded?

its not about buying the holder or TPG taking over the earth, its about authentication and grade on a bit of a higher end (more risk) item.

ziggy29 · April 20, 2006 11:27PM

<< more to the point, wouldn't you want them authenticated, as in graded?

its not about buying the holder or TPG taking over the earth, its about authentication and grade on a bit of a higher end (more risk) item. >>

If the coins came from an exceedingly reputable dealer, one who (a) is very good at identifying fakes and (b) has an unconditional lifetime guarantee of authenticity which (c) I trusted them to honor, I'd consider buying coins like this raw if I had the money and the desire. But on eBay? Fat chance.

MrEureka · April 20, 2006 11:34PM

why would anyone buy coins of this caliber without them being graded?

Because the same coin may not be available elsewhere at the same price in a slab, or at all.

MrEureka · April 20, 2006 11:38PM

Well the fellow I know apparently received a counterfeit and had a heck of a time getting his money back

Tom - If that's true, it could easily be that Rick was not convinced that the coin is counterfeit. And given Rick's undeniable expertise, I would certainly not discount his opinion. More details, please.

goose3 · April 20, 2006 11:41PM

If he is such a proclaimed "Expert" and may have not been convinced it was counterfeit, why not simply refund the customer?

or course, hypothetically speaking.

Maybe Rick's "Expertise" is now deniable.

MrEureka · April 20, 2006 11:45PM

If he is such a proclaimed "Expert" and may have not been convinced it was counterfeit, why not simply refund the customer?

I can think of many possible scenarios where a refund would not be in order. Let's wait for details before condemning the guy.

mrearlygold · April 20, 2006 11:50PM

<< Well the fellow I know apparently received a counterfeit and had a heck of a time getting his money back

Tom - If that's true, it could easily be that Rick was not convinced that the coin is counterfeit. And given Rick's undeniable expertise, I would certainly not discount his opinion. More details, please. >>

I forwarded the thread to the fellow who told me what happened and he will hopefully fill us all in. I have to catch an airplane to the cold northland and will be back tomorrow night.

goose3 · April 20, 2006 11:52PM

<< If he is such a proclaimed "Expert" and may have not been convinced it was counterfeit, why not simply refund the customer?

I can think of many possible scenarios where a refund would not be in order. Let's wait for details before condemning the guy. >>

On the flip side, let's wait until we kiss his ass.

MrEureka · April 20, 2006 11:56PM

On the flip side, let's wait until we kiss his ass.

Goose - You are one sick twisted freak. Not that I would try to dissuade you from pursuing your proposed course of action, of course.

mrearlygold · April 20, 2006 11:57PM

He called you a name goose2. Wahttaya gonna doaboutit

Longacre · April 20, 2006 11:58PM

<< 

<< Well the fellow I know apparently received a counterfeit and had a heck of a time getting his money back

Tom - If that's true, it could easily be that Rick was not convinced that the coin is counterfeit. And given Rick's undeniable expertise, I would certainly not discount his opinion. More details, please. >>

I forwarded the thread to the fellow who told me what happened and he will hopefully fill us all in. I have to catch an airplane to the cold northland and will be back tomorrow night. >>

You going to the North Pole?

mrearlygold · April 20, 2006 11:59PM

<< 

<< 

<< Well the fellow I know apparently received a counterfeit and had a heck of a time getting his money back

Tom - If that's true, it could easily be that Rick was not convinced that the coin is counterfeit. And given Rick's undeniable expertise, I would certainly not discount his opinion. More details, please. >>

I forwarded the thread to the fellow who told me what happened and he will hopefully fill us all in. I have to catch an airplane to the cold northland and will be back tomorrow night. >>

You going to the North Pole? >>

NYC

Same ting

goose3 · April 21, 2006 12:05AM

LOL....expertise........

RalphP13 · April 21, 2006 12:09AM

I have one person on my blocked bidder list.

It is MS67Rick.

Ralph

DrWho · April 21, 2006 12:18AM

<< LOL....expertise........ >>

given the above thread, can the RGross supporters please explain to me that, FOR SURE, the current items in question have NOT been 'enhanced'? as in why is it not in a holder giving authentication as well as grade and/or BB, and some truth?

FatMan · April 21, 2006 12:19AM

<< LOL....expertise........ >>

I find these situations very troubling. When Dealers are thought to have good reputations by other what I believe to be reputable dealers, then they are caught red handed in what is downright questionable behavior what are we collectors to make of it. I certainly don't believe Julian's and Andy's opinion of the dealer are a cover-up, but is it possible that the dealers turn a blind eye to dealer friends who are involved in these types of activities?

pharmer · April 21, 2006 12:38AM

It's like the fairtraderz deal. His defender said that he had never done her wrong, so he was OK

MrEureka · April 21, 2006 12:39AM

is it possible that the dealers turn a blind eye to dealer friends who are involved in these types of activities?

That is human nature, but I don't think it's relevant to this thread.

Myqqy · April 21, 2006 12:46AM

That is human nature, but I don't think it's relevant to this thread.

I think it's completely relevant. Coin collectors should not be informed of dealers that engage in unethical practices??

pharmer · April 21, 2006 12:47AM

It becomes relevant when his defenders pop up and make supportive statements that are not relevant to the thread author's original point

MrEureka · April 21, 2006 12:52AM

Coin collectors should not be informed of dealers that engage in unethical practices??

Of course they should. However, Rick was accused of refusing a refund on a counterfeit coin, and Julian and I know Rick well enough to know that there must be more to this story. Is it wrong for us to ask for more details before proceeding with the lynching? I don't think so.

CalGold · April 21, 2006 12:53AM

<< is it possible that the dealers turn a blind eye to dealer friends who are involved in these types of activities? >>

Is it more probable that dealers deal differently with each other than with the general public? Or to put it an other way, if you were a dealer would you try to slip a tooled coin pass Mr Lustig or Mr. Leidman?

CG

pharmer · April 21, 2006 12:55AM

<< 

<< LOL....expertise........ >>

I find these situations very troubling. When Dealers are thought to have good reputations by other what I believe to be reputable dealers, then they are caught red handed in what is downright questionable behavior what are we collectors to make of it. I certainly don't believe Julian's and Andy's opinion of the dealer are a cover-up, but is it possible that the dealers turn a blind eye to dealer friends who are involved in these types of activities? >>

A blind eye is one thing. But it's an implicit insult to collectors' intelligence for another dealer's defense to amount to "he never stabbed me in the back, so he's OK, don't sweat it

"

Julian · April 21, 2006 1:04AM

I have spoken with Rick on the phone this morning and he will look at the thread later today. I should be able to have some more information later.

Russ · April 21, 2006 1:08AM

<< Julian and I know Rick well enough to know that there must be more to this story. >>

There always is more to the story. However, the situation illuminated in the other thread remains rather troubling.

Russ, NCNE

FatMan · April 21, 2006 1:13AM

<< 

<< Julian and I know Rick well enough to know that there must be more to this story. >>

There always is more to the story. However, the situation illuminated in the other thread remains rather troubling. >>

It most certainly does. And a dealer's past actions are certainly relevent to the current question. It's all about ethics, and one's reputation is developed through previous actions. Unfair or not, perceptions are reality.

Longacre · April 21, 2006 1:20AM

The Ebay link in the earlier thread did not work for me. Is the auction too old to pull it up? Does anyone have a link that works. I would like to follow this story and have all of the facts out in the public domain, and then hear from the parties involved through this thread.

Barry · April 21, 2006 3:06AM

Personally, I've looked at enough of his auctions (and heard enough stories) so I won't buy from him.

There have been other threads in the past about him:
scrub a dub
another thread

Julian · April 21, 2006 4:59AM

Rick sent me his response:

Dear Julian,

Thank you for sending me he PCGS message board thread.

As concerning the assertion that I sold a counterfeit coin and the person had trouble getting a refund.
I challenge anyone to come foward with that experience. He or she is a liar!

As for the rest I do make coins look better. As do nearly all other coin dealers.
What constitutes whether a coin is cleaned or not is a matter of oponion.
PCGS rejected thousands of coins as cleaned which they now encapsulate.
If you don't like the coin don't buy it!
I offer an uncondidional 7 day return policy.
My return on counterfeit or altered coins(metal moved) is for the length of my life.
I do not and can not run my business based on someone else's oponion.
My opinions change! How can I guarantee somone elses?

Rick

Cladiator · April 21, 2006 5:06AM

I don't really know what to make of that reply.

pharmer · April 21, 2006 5:09AM

Sounds like the reply of someone who's had lots of practice crafting such a reply

FatMan · April 21, 2006 5:15AM

<< I don't really know what to make of that reply. >>

This is what I read...I will sell coins misrepresented under the guise of my opinion. If you know enough upon receipt to recognize the misrepresentation, you can return it within 7 days. If someone should show you after 7 days where the coin was misrepresented under the guise of opinion, TS, unless it is counterfeit or altered. Then you can still return it.

I'm thinking this is no dealer for a novice to use.

I would like to thank Julian for his effort in allowing this dealer to bring his side of the story to the table. It is unfortunate that the dealer in question didn't make a very good case for himself.

goose3 · April 21, 2006 5:35AM

well stated (as usual) FatMan...and no direct comment about the prior thread with the coin that appeared "Smashed" but was in reality holed and plugged.

Well I hope MrEarlyGold can get the other person to chime in now.

How unfortunate that no one took the liberty of emailing him back when the previous thread was running but the old thread speaks volumes.

It would seem that I don't share a similar definition of the phrase "Undeniable Expertise" as others around here.

Fairlaneman · April 21, 2006 5:47AM

Experts are falling right and left around here. Do you think anyone is learning anything ?

Ken

RYK · April 21, 2006 5:51AM

Threads like these make me glad that I have found a small number of dealers whom I respect, trust, and have a track record of multiple successful buy and sell transactions. If there is a coin that I want/need, one of them, depending on the coin, will do what it takes to find the coin, evaluate the coin and deliver the coin to me at a reasonable price. I do not feel very compelled to go hunting in the sometimes scary coin jungle on my own. I know that this is not a popular approach here, but it works for me and has enhanced my enjoyment of the hobby and protected me from some of the downside.

Fairlaneman · April 21, 2006 5:54AM

RYK buying from only a select few dealers is no fun. I will buy from anyone. Even you !

Ken

1798CentCollector · April 21, 2006 5:59AM

Wow. I stayed away from posting as I'm not a fan of personalizing opinions in public of folks when the actual evidence is not presented along with the opinions and real damage can be done. However, Mr. Gross did himself no favor or many other dealers with his statement and attitude. It seems rather cavalier and I don't recall off-hand his eBay ads where he described coins as "made to look better". Too bad.

1798CentCollector · April 21, 2006 6:03AM

<< 

But why in the world would ANYONE with ANY numismatic intelligence buy a RAW coin looking like that from Ebay???

>>

Good point - check'em out

AlaBill · April 21, 2006 6:06AM

<< But why in the world would ANYONE with ANY numismatic intelligence buy a RAW coin looking like that from Ebay??? >>

Amen!

FatMan · April 21, 2006 6:10AM

<< But why in the world would ANYONE with ANY numismatic intelligence buy a RAW coin looking like that from Ebay??? >>

Ah yes, the standard smoke screen in these situations...Blame the Buyer.

braddick · April 21, 2006 6:16AM

<< Wow. I stayed away from posting as I'm not a fan of personalizing opinions in public of folks when the actual evidence is not presented along with the opinions and real damage can be done. However, Mr. Gross did himself no favor or many other dealers with his statement and attitude. It seems rather cavalier and I don't recall off-hand his eBay ads where he described coins as "made to look better". Too bad. >>

Yes, shame on him for lifting back the curtain? Seemed like a direct and honest answer at the expense of not providing us happy talk.

All other Dealers willing to do so take one step forward.

Yeah... I didn't think so.

bhartman35 · April 21, 2006 6:24AM

I can't fault the guy for a (standard, as far as I know) 7-day return policy. But it's hard to have confidence with his reply. You should always be able to get your money back on a counterfeit. That's common sense, since it's fraud to sell someone a counterfeit without disclosing it. And when you have an Ebay sale, you're supposed to disclose any problems, not hide them and hope the buyer doesn't figure them out within the 7-day window. Like I said, I don't have a problem with the 7 days, but I do have a problem with giving someone a nonsense song and dance in the hope that they don't find out the truth in time.

Consider him blocked.

Tarmac · April 21, 2006 6:29AM

But why in the world would ANYONE with ANY numismatic intelligence buy a RAW coin looking like that from Ebay???

Rip, greed, arrogance, gullible, ego, etc.

Frankly, they deserve what they get!

Anyone know Richard Gross?

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