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How important is the condition census to the non-registry collector?
Longacre
Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
The whole condition census concept mystifies me. I understand the point of the census, but based on my experience, and current grading trends, it seems that the members of the condition census frequently change. For the average collector, how important is the condition census? Also, does it ever make sense to collect a coin in a grade that is slightly below the condition census, but strong for the assigned grade? In addition, does anyone ever track a "condition census" for a lower tier grade, of which there might be few examples, but some of those examples might be more desirable than others within that group (thereby, creating a ranking within a sub-condition census group)?
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
0
Comments
In some cases, borne of actual study and rigorous anaysis, I believe some reasonably reliable condition census lists have been developed for some items, perhaps most accurately in early copper.
Aside from those, however, I find the majority of that described as condition census to be ridiculous, or at least ridiculously inaccurate based on honest disagreement, self-promotion or simply incompetence.
Does it matter? Well, it seems to matter to most everyone attempting to sell a coin for the highest price possible, and to those who chase such items in some sort of collecting competition.
What was the question again?
CC is important when it comes to series or select dates/mm's that are globally rare. Keeping track of the CC is more for the benefit of knowledge of such coins than it is for competition among collectors. Some coins, for example, among the large coppers, are so rare that all of the specimens for a given variety are tracked across all conditions. There are probably more coins that fit this decription than one would initially guess. Nearly all coins of R7 rarity and above are tracked this way, perhaps even some R6s. This isn't exactly what you inquired about in terms of a sub-CC group, but it's as close as it gets, I believe.
Hoot
<< <i>Some coins, for example, among the large coppers, are so rare that all of the specimens for a given variety are tracked across all conditions. >>
This is an accurate statement for Bust coins as well. At least for the R8, R7 and some R6 coins.
I am interested in the "condition census", as it applies to Dahlonega and No Motto (and better date) New Orleans gold coins. In many cases, barring the surprise appearance of a previously unknown coin, the top coins are well-known, theirs ownerships are known, and they trade between specialists who are aware of their significance. In most cases, this has nothing to do with TPG grade, let alone registries.
Another or Dr sheldons' inventions gone awry. i believe the condition census thing stated with Dr. Sheldon and the large cents and was not really intended for other denominations but was adopted later as was the 70 point grading system.
In my opinion, the importance of the condition census is that it 1) does give a relatively accurate picture of the top coins, and grade/rarity levels in any given variety - many varieties are only found in VG and G grades or less even in the top 10 and 20; 2) estabishes a convenient means for tracking pedigrees/provenance and prices of these coins. 3) is a great tool for reference and identification when these coins appear on the market - especially without provenance information as photos are maintained of most all of the coins in the census seen by the keepers. 3) allows interested parties to have an idea of where coins reside, possible furture availbility, etc.
The Noyes Condition Census for large cents has expanded ( from his previous list) and may continue to expand. I think for a lot of other reasons - not havng to do with one-upmanship - including those already mentioned a condition census adds significant value to certain series such as Early Copper.
<< <i>Condition Census is an interesting debate and certainly not without it's detractors. I think in Early Copper it carries much more importance than in other later series with high mintages, high levels of preservation, and where value is placed only on high grades. >>
And not only that, but as for the "condition rarities" because of grading guarantees and such, TPGs sometimes have a conflict of interest in grading coins.
If something is worth $1000 in 62 and $10,000 in 63, a coin that most would agree is a solid 63 has a much greater chance to come back in a 62 holder than if the jump from 62 to 63 were, say, $300-500. So the TPGs have a vested financial interest in distorting the "pop reports" so that true condition rarities may seem rarer than they are. Add on top of that the number of times this same coin is cracked out again and again, and you really distort the truth. This is particularly true with condition rarity Morgans more than elsewhere, but anywhere you see a ridiculous exponential increase from one grade to the next, you're liable to see it.
I rarely use the population reports as they have little to do with what I'm deciding to buy. I do use the price guides as the rarity/popularity is usually factored into the price.
Could someone give me an example of a/the "condition census?" I assume we are not talking about population reports. I have heard the term thrown around so much, I never really decided it was important. Usually when I see it in an ad to sell something, I run the other way.
https://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/collectors-showcase/world-coins/one-coin-per-year-1600-2017/2422
Could someone give me an example of a/the "condition census?" I assume we are not talking about population reports. I have heard the term thrown around so much, I never really decided it was important. Usually when I see it in an ad to sell something, I run the other way.
Dumb response of the day.
Plenty of collectors enjoy viewing and studying the finest known examples of an issue, even if they choose not to collect them (or, in my case, cannot afford them). It's hard to know what is a nice example of an issue unless you can understand what are the best examples known. The recent discussion of the 1855-D gold $1 NGC-65 with the full date but dipped versus the nicer and exquisitely original MS-64 with the weak date is an excellent example. As someone who hopes some day to own an 1855-D $1 but will never be able to afford one of this caliber, I personally am interested to understand the characteristics of the coins and how they come before buying a much lesser example.
Just because you do not embrace or understand the concept does not make it unimportant to other collectors.
<< <i>The whole condition census concept mystifies me. I understand the point of the census, but based on my experience, and current grading trends, it seems that the members of the condition census frequently change. For the average collector, how important is the condition census? Also, does it ever make sense to collect a coin in a grade that is slightly below the condition census, but strong for the assigned grade? In addition, does anyone ever track a "condition census" for a lower tier grade, of which there might be few examples, but some of those examples might be more desirable than others within that group (thereby, creating a ranking within a sub-condition census group)? >>
Obviously collectors have been giving quality increasing weight for more than a generatiuon
now. This trend is being strenghtened by the existence of the third part graders who serve to
identify the best quality coins and the internet which serves to locate them.
Whether or not this trend reverses in the future is pure speculation but two things are certain:
Collecting the best quality was around long before the registries existed and some of the highest
quality sets are not in the registry.
<< <i>Dumb question of the day.
Could someone give me an example of a/the "condition census?" I assume we are not talking about population reports. I have heard the term thrown around so much, I never really decided it was important. Usually when I see it in an ad to sell something, I run the other way. >>
Wow. I've never been accused of posting dumb questions before. I guess there is a first time for everything. Given the caliber of people who responded with pretty enlightening thoughts, I don't think everyone thinks the question is dumb.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Your question was very appropriate. A good discussion. Condition Census is indeed important as is any tool that increases knowledge about a subject or our ability to better accomplish something. Yea, it's not of value to everyone as we all don't have the same interests. I think important distinctions should be made as to intrepretations and understandings of Condition Census in Early Coppers and maybe other extremely rare issues and published POP reports - what each consitutes and reflects.
Your first time is still yet to come.
1. If condition census is being equated with pop report, the numbers are a joke. Don't forget crackouts/resubmissions.
2. "finest known" doesn't necessarily mean highest graded.
3. Collecting high grade coins doesn't interest me. It's been created by the TPGs and the egos of the registry hype.
<< <i>
<< <i>Dumb question of the day.
Could someone give me an example of a/the "condition census?" I assume we are not talking about population reports. I have heard the term thrown around so much, I never really decided it was important. Usually when I see it in an ad to sell something, I run the other way. >>
Wow. I've never been accused of posting dumb questions before. I guess there is a first time for everything. Given the caliber of people who responded with pretty enlightening thoughts, I don't think everyone thinks the question is dumb. >>
Longacre - I believe that MrBreeze was simply humbling his own question.
None of the questions or resulting discussion have been dumb. Some great responses have been posted. It's cliche', but the only dumb question is the one that goes unasked.
Hoot
<< <i>Means nothing to me because:
1. If condition census is being equated with pop report, the numbers are a joke. Don't forget crackouts/resubmissions.
2. "finest known" doesn't necessarily mean highest graded.
3. Collecting high grade coins doesn't interest me. It's been created by the TPGs and the egos of the registry hype. >>
I agree with your assertion that Condition Census and POP reports are potentially different. Published EAC Condition Census tracks specific coins and information re: the historical path of the coin - TPG POPs cannot not accurately do that and aren't intended to do that. I think you can still get a degree of relative condition rarity at the higher end grades from a POP report (I am speaking of non-modern coins that is) - even if you assume that resubmissions account for a large percentage.
In EAC terms "finest known" is highest graded in the condition census, unless you are referring to a coin not in the census and making an independent judgement call about the coin. Obviously not in the POPS. I think they use the term "none graded higher" to cover that loophole.
I think you have a vaild point as to TPG hype and marketing around POP reports. Nonetheless I think there's value in the information for those interested - you just need to realize the hazards.
That comment, "Dumb question of the day," had nothing to do with your post. Total misunderstanding. I was referring to my question. I hear "condition census" used so much (as CCU noted), that I felt like the only one who had no idea what people were talking about. My "dumb" comment had to do with the fact that I thought I was asking about a topic that might be perceived as common knowledge. My post and meaning have been misinterpreted. I did not know what the census was, and therefore, never thought it was a good idea for me to buy something that was priced based on the condition census. I love the idea of anything that attempts to quantify the populations and conditions of any coin series. I asked for an example because I was hoping there may be a Seated Quarter condition census. Apparently, it is just in early coppers, right?
https://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/collectors-showcase/world-coins/one-coin-per-year-1600-2017/2422