as an intermediate collector. I enjoy both classic and modern coins, both offer there own challenges. I just went to my first auction in town and bought a bunch of mint sets. I had lot of fun going through looking for the best ikes and kennedys to send in to pcgs. 4 ikes and 8 kenndys. I don't have any cert. Ikes so maybe I will work a set of cert ikes I had certified myself.
I also bid on 4 barber dimes. I started looking and think that it would be fun to work a set barber dimes. in good to fine. Not very expensive but challenging in that there are lots of dates and trying to get a set that matches up well. all original with the same look. This will keep me busy for a while without bankrupting me. this set would be almost impossible without ebay. there is no way that I could find all the dates in town. It's nice to have a large pool of coins to look through.
the best part of collecting is the hunting not the having. The trick is to find something challenging to collect in your budget.
My main interest is 18th & 19th century U.S. coins but I also have quite a few modern coins in my collection and I'm dutifully filling the State Quarter board my grandkids gave me. I really like some of the 20th century designs and I think the best thing that has happened to collecting in a long time is the State Quarter program.
IMHO the main point of contention when it comes to this classic versus modern debate is how the value of these coins are accessed. In general terms the value of classic coins is a combination of their absolute rarity and the grade distribution among the surviving coins. In addition classic coins give the collector an opportunity to own something that may be a relatively rare piece of early U.S. history (relatively rare in that there is not a whole lot of anything that has survived from the 18th and 19th centuries). All of these things are factors that in the minds of classic collectors contribute to their assessment of the value a coin.
On the other hand the vast majority of the value of modern coins is tied to grade, ususally a one point difference in grade and ususally in the lofty realm of MS-67~69 where the things that differentiate those grades are a few miniscule marks. This is what I think is the key element in the classic versus modern debate. The overwhelming focus when it comes to modern coins is grade. There may be hundreds of millions of particular coin with millions in pristine mint state condition in mint sets but the overwhelming consideration when assess the value of these thousand dollar State Quarters or fifty thousand dollar Franklin Halfs is grade. From the perspective of classic collectors who assess value based on a combination of the elements mentioned above this single minded focus on grade and the prices paid for that single element seems to us to be narrow minded.
Off course to each his own and everyone is free to spend their money how they please but I think this at the root of the classic vs. modern debate.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I think it's a fair question to ask, and IMO, I think the registry inflates the prices somewhat. I do collect some modern series and have 3 of them in the registry. I also collect classic sets but have only one of them in the registry at the moment. I have found that registry pieces (modern OR classic) seem to draw a higher price than only a couple of years ago, and I am sure the registry plays a part in it. But I donlt see much difference in the Modern sets and the classic sets myself. I personally set a limit on what I will pay for a coin by the coin. Not my rank in the registry (maybe thats what I'm all the way down to 6th on my moden set now?), and am more likely to pay a higher premium on a classic, just because the chances a lesser that there are more high grades that will join the pop report. Of course now that that nasty state quarter program came out, the prices on all of my washingtons have sky rocketed anyway, so to me that is the casue of these silly modern prices.
There seem to be about as many reasons to hate moderns as there are classic collectors. Certainly the large price spreads in high grade are one of the more legitimate reasons to be leary of modern coins. I know many collectors now who collect circulating coins and very few of them care whether their example is typical or gem. Most do like a nice attractive example so for some years typical isn't good enough for them. There are relatively few people going after the highest grades, some are doing it for the registry, some just for a collection, and at least a few for investment or speculation. Many of these people insist on encapsulation, some be- cause it's required for the registry, some for security or protection, and some because they don't feel confident in their grading ability. For whatever reason they buy these coins their demand is outstripping the supply. As time goes on and the supply of many of these coins increase and demand evens out a little, there will almost certainly be less spread in price. But, there will always be many moderns that are far more elu- sive in a slightly higher grade. This is the way they were made!!!!! The bulk were pro- duced very poorly and the number drops off very sharply as you go up the quality scale. At the highest levels this attenuation in population becomes very extreme for many moderns. It's not surprising this disconcerts many classic collectors who are used to coins made in a more normal distribution. And it does make buying these coins without some knowledge a riskier proposition. It does not however, diminish the enjoyment of looking for these coins or assembling a set in any condition.
You're absolutely right. They are two distinct collecting styles, and serve two different collector communities although there is some overlap. I agree that from the classic collector's point of view, the prices modern collectors are willing to pay for very high grade coins probably looks absurd, and maybe even insults their collecting interest. I personally believe the surge in prices for high grade coins is a giant wave that started with moderns simply because of the number of collectors, and will take a few years to reach classics, but will reach them none the less. I believe it really is about accessibility. Isn't it really a great thing for the hobby. IMHO
guess I did it the wrong way. I collected modern stuff from circulation, determined what I had an interest in and started to collect it in circulated grades. As time went on I moved to MS grades and am now collecting the "already known by everyone" varieties and errors. I am sure I should have spent hundreds, if not thousands, on certified modern stuff that meant absolutely nothing to me to do it the right way, but I chose my way. Of course I was guided by my dealer, who works all of the national shows and lets me in on every detail of the "game", and searches for coins for me that are properly graded (oh yeah, he graded for PCGS).
Dbldie, I hope you didn't take the opinion I expressed about how new collectors should build modern sets without overpaying for high grade coins as a personally directed comment about your collecting approach. In truth, if you were a modern collector, and had searched through sets and submitted yourself, maybe being guided by your dealer and taking his word for what were properly graded coins would seem less important. I certainly wouldn't suggest to a newbie that they take that approach.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I'd buy a copy of the ANA grading guide and study that to learn to grade the classic coins in the circulated conditions. Then I'd start on a modest obsolete coin type set. If you find a date and mint set that you like while you are collecting type coins, you might get into it
There's no need to buy common date circulated classic coins in slabs. A lot of circulated coins that are in slabs are overgraded anywhere. The graders only seem to be able to the Mint State stuff. The circulated coins seem to beyond or perhaps they think used coins are "below" them.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>Non-FS, non-FH and non-FB issues, in top grades, are also undervalued, I believe >>
Ain't that the truth? Although, I'm not sure whether it's the designated issues that are OVER value of the non-des which are undervalued but either way I do believe the "non" issues are exceedingly cheap and a great place to put together a nice set of coins. Believe me if I put together a nice set of non-FH quarters and displayed them I'm sure I'd get a positive reponse from collectors who see it. None would probably care that they were non-FH or whatever.
Another thing: The only problem I see with this Registry craze is that it gives collectors the false impression that somehow the highest graded set is the highest quality set. There's a good chance, IMO, that isn't true. You could spend a few years and lots of dollars on a MS68 proof Kennedy set (or whatever series, modern or classic) and not get a nice a set as another person going to Long Beach and putting a set in MS66 in one day at the show while spending far less money. If you "cherry pick" your set this can be done. Again, I reiterate, this applies to ALL series (Barber proofs for instance).
As a newbie, I always enjoy reading these threads. Beyond the never-ending, seemingly pointless argument, these are chock full 'o nuts, uh, er, information.
I collect proof Kennedy halves because I like them. I collect certified ones, because raw ones rattle around in the blue boxes. Bwuahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
Comments
I just went to my first auction in town and bought a bunch of mint sets. I had lot of fun going through
looking for the best ikes and kennedys to send in to pcgs. 4 ikes and 8 kenndys. I don't have any cert.
Ikes so maybe I will work a set of cert ikes I had certified myself.
I also bid on 4 barber dimes. I started looking and think that it would be fun to work a set barber dimes.
in good to fine. Not very expensive but challenging in that there are lots of dates and trying to get
a set that matches up well. all original with the same look. This will keep me busy for a while without
bankrupting me. this set would be almost impossible without ebay. there is no way that I could find all
the dates in town. It's nice to have a large pool of coins to look through.
the best part of collecting is the hunting not the having. The trick is to find something challenging to collect
in your budget.
IMHO the main point of contention when it comes to this classic versus modern debate is how the value of these coins are accessed. In general terms the value of classic coins is a combination of their absolute rarity and the grade distribution among the surviving coins. In addition classic coins give the collector an opportunity to own something that may be a relatively rare piece of early U.S. history (relatively rare in that there is not a whole lot of anything that has survived from the 18th and 19th centuries). All of these things are factors that in the minds of classic collectors contribute to their assessment of the value a coin.
On the other hand the vast majority of the value of modern coins is tied to grade, ususally a one point difference in grade and ususally in the lofty realm of MS-67~69 where the things that differentiate those grades are a few miniscule marks. This is what I think is the key element in the classic versus modern debate. The overwhelming focus when it comes to modern coins is grade. There may be hundreds of millions of particular coin with millions in pristine mint state condition in mint sets but the overwhelming consideration when assess the value of these thousand dollar State Quarters or fifty thousand dollar Franklin Halfs is grade. From the perspective of classic collectors who assess value based on a combination of the elements mentioned above this single minded focus on grade and the prices paid for that single element seems to us to be narrow minded.
Off course to each his own and everyone is free to spend their money how they please but I think this at the root of the classic vs. modern debate.
collectors. Certainly the large price spreads in high grade are one of the more
legitimate reasons to be leary of modern coins. I know many collectors now who
collect circulating coins and very few of them care whether their example is typical
or gem. Most do like a nice attractive example so for some years typical isn't good
enough for them. There are relatively few people going after the highest grades,
some are doing it for the registry, some just for a collection, and at least a few for
investment or speculation. Many of these people insist on encapsulation, some be-
cause it's required for the registry, some for security or protection, and some because
they don't feel confident in their grading ability. For whatever reason they buy these
coins their demand is outstripping the supply. As time goes on and the supply of
many of these coins increase and demand evens out a little, there will almost certainly
be less spread in price. But, there will always be many moderns that are far more elu-
sive in a slightly higher grade. This is the way they were made!!!!! The bulk were pro-
duced very poorly and the number drops off very sharply as you go up the quality scale.
At the highest levels this attenuation in population becomes very extreme for many
moderns. It's not surprising this disconcerts many classic collectors who are used to
coins made in a more normal distribution. And it does make buying these coins without
some knowledge a riskier proposition. It does not however, diminish the enjoyment of
looking for these coins or assembling a set in any condition.
You're absolutely right. They are two distinct collecting styles, and serve two different collector communities although there is some overlap. I agree that from the classic collector's point of view, the prices modern collectors are willing to pay for very high grade coins probably looks absurd, and maybe even insults their collecting interest. I personally believe the surge in prices for high grade coins is a giant wave that started with moderns simply because of the number of collectors, and will take a few years to reach classics, but will reach them none the less. I believe it really is about accessibility. Isn't it really a great thing for the hobby. IMHO
guess I did it the wrong way. I collected modern stuff from circulation, determined what I had an interest in and started to collect it in circulated grades. As time went on I moved to MS grades and am now collecting the "already known by everyone" varieties and errors. I am sure I should have spent hundreds, if not thousands, on certified modern stuff that meant absolutely nothing to me to do it the right way, but I chose my way. Of course I was guided by my dealer, who works all of the national shows and lets me in on every detail of the "game", and searches for coins for me that are properly graded (oh yeah, he graded for PCGS).
Dbldie, I hope you didn't take the opinion I expressed about how new collectors should build modern sets without overpaying for high grade coins as a personally directed comment about your collecting approach. In truth, if you were a modern collector, and had searched through sets and submitted yourself, maybe being guided by your dealer and taking his word for what were properly graded coins would seem less important. I certainly wouldn't suggest to a newbie that they take that approach.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
There's no need to buy common date circulated classic coins in slabs. A lot of circulated coins that are in slabs are overgraded anywhere. The graders only seem to be able to the Mint State stuff. The circulated coins seem to beyond or perhaps they think used coins are "below" them.
<< <i>Non-FS, non-FH and non-FB issues, in top grades, are also undervalued, I believe >>
Ain't that the truth? Although, I'm not sure whether it's the designated issues that are OVER value of the non-des which are undervalued but either way I do believe the "non" issues are exceedingly cheap and a great place to put together a nice set of coins. Believe me if I put together a nice set of non-FH quarters and displayed them I'm sure I'd get a positive reponse from collectors who see it. None would probably care that they were non-FH or whatever.
Another thing: The only problem I see with this Registry craze is that it gives collectors the false impression that somehow the highest graded set is the highest quality set. There's a good chance, IMO, that isn't true. You could spend a few years and lots of dollars on a MS68 proof Kennedy set (or whatever series, modern or classic) and not get a nice a set as another person going to Long Beach and putting a set in MS66 in one day at the show while spending far less money. If you "cherry pick" your set this can be done. Again, I reiterate, this applies to ALL series (Barber proofs for instance).
jom
I collect proof Kennedy halves because I like them. I collect certified ones, because raw ones rattle around in the blue boxes. Bwuahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
Russ, NCNE
I'm glad to hear there's someone who agrees with my opinion of the grading quality in slabbed circulated coins.
BC
<< <i>A great read worth a re-visit. >>
Indeed. Is it too late for a little editing?