I don't understand why everyone keeps saying this was such a good AT job that it fooled dealers and TPG graders.
The fact of the matter is, the coin looks AT, and there's even more grossly AT coins in holders as it is. Simply put it just looks like heat was applied to the center of the coin, as mentioned before. In a holder or not the coin is AT. If PCI slabbed this coin, everyone would say, IT'S AT AND NOT A MS66*. But since NGC slabbed it, it had to be true that it was natural.
People just reaped the 'rewards' of buying the holder this time.
-Daniel
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
30 years ago when I was in art school I took courses in metalworks, Silversmithing and Goldsmithing. a couple of the guys started toning coins for students for $5-10 as a novelty, and to make money. One student brought her pretty coin home for christmas, 1972, and showed her grandfather, a coin collector. He wanted his coins toned...word spread, the guys set up a massive operation and had coins toning all over the place. they were quite good, as art majors and craftsman, their work was beautiful. Numerous morgans were toned along with every other denomination. this has been going on for ages...my professor had learned in college in the 30's...and his professor before that?
And again, for those of you who believe that ATing a coin with greens is super hard, or people who assume coins with green are NT...Look at his other listings.
-Daniel
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
green's the one color that doesn't require sulfer in some form...cannot be attained with heat alone...but the chemical it does require is in some dandruff shampoos and first aid preparations.
"I don't understand why everyone keeps saying this was such a good AT job that it fooled dealers and TPG graders. The fact of the matter is, the coin looks AT"
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Opinions are most accurate regarding Sunday football, on Monday.
My opinion is that the coin looked original, like it had toned in an small manilla envelope. I think the guy who toned the coin did an incredible job. It fooled the graders at NGC, it fooled the guy who sold it to me (he's no newbie), it fooled me and it fooled Brandon. It also fooled a number of highly experienced and intelligent people on this board when an image of the coin was originally posted.
Now that the coin turns out to be an outstanding piece of AT art, some want to say "well, can't you see, it's obviously a fake!" Gimme a break. Try to keep your brilliance a secret unless you were one of the very few people who publicly opined that it was AT from the git go.
I don't see much issue here. Looks like someone bought an MS66* Peace Dollar, a $400 coin for 55 bucks. Nice purchase.
The real travesty is that gotoartificialtoning's coins are getting way too close if NGC is slabbing $10,000+ coins..
NGC did not slab a $10,000 coin, that value was placed on it by a seller who thought he could find a "buyer(spelled S_U_C_K_E_R)" to pay him $14, 500. NGC never said it was worth that because it never was.
Anyone who pays that kind of money for a common coin with pretty colors is wasting money. But if thats what they want, what has changed. The coin still looks pretty, AT or NT it was never worth a 5 figure price.
<< <i>"I don't understand why everyone keeps saying this was such a good AT job that it fooled dealers and TPG graders. The fact of the matter is, the coin looks AT"
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Opinions are most accurate regarding Sunday football, on Monday.
My opinion is that the coin looked original, like it had toned in an small manilla envelope. I think the guy who toned the coin did an incredible job. It fooled the graders at NGC, it fooled the guy who sold it to me (he's no newbie), it fooled me and it fooled Brandon. It also fooled a number of highly experienced and intelligent people on this board when an image of the coin was originally posted.
Now that the coin turns out to be an outstanding piece of AT art, some want to say "well, can't you see, it's obviously a fake!" Gimme a break. Try to keep your brilliance a secret unless you were one of the very few people who publicly opined that it was AT from the git go. >>
Hi, I was one of the people who publicly said it wasn't a coin that exhibited toning like a coin from an envelope to begin with. Back to the whole "homework" front. And I just said, just because the coin "FOOLED THE NGC GRADERS" doesn't mean it was that great. There's much more atrocious/obvious AT coins in TPG holders(Only helping to prove they aren't perfect). Not only did I post in the other threads about this coin, but I posted in the WLH posts about the "SUPER outstanding" toning on them and voiced my opinion on them being AT. Something that hasn't been proven yet but we're constantly seeing closer examples of toning, including green colors.
Clutzy, are you referring to silennium, sulfides, fluoride... or what? Head and Shoulders does wonders for toning coins.
Edit: I had originally posted something much worse in the first thread about it being AT, but in order to avoid the flamefest from everyone praising the coin, I edited the post and said the coin was "beautiful" and just made a small assessment. I'll add a little note onto my original post on the first thread.
-Daniel
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
<< <i>"I don't understand why everyone keeps saying this was such a good AT job that it fooled dealers and TPG graders. The fact of the matter is, the coin looks AT"
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Opinions are most accurate regarding Sunday football, on Monday.
My opinion is that the coin looked original, like it had toned in an small manilla envelope. I think the guy who toned the coin did an incredible job. It fooled the graders at NGC, it fooled the guy who sold it to me (he's no newbie), it fooled me and it fooled Brandon. It also fooled a number of highly experienced and intelligent people on this board when an image of the coin was originally posted.
Now that the coin turns out to be an outstanding piece of AT art, some want to say "well, can't you see, it's obviously a fake!" Gimme a break. Try to keep your brilliance a secret unless you were one of the very few people who publicly opined that it was AT from the git go. >>
I think you guys should just take your lumps and move on. This coin was no where close to being legitimate.
This business of AT versus NT is not that complex. Go back and look at the New England Rare Coin Galleries and Steve Ivy catalogs of late 70s and early 80s vintage to see what NT coins that have been put away for decades look like. After looking at catalog after catalog and page after page of NT coins you will probably conclude as well that much of the "blast white" stuff so common today has been played with.
<< <i> "At some point in our collecting experiences, we have been told over and over again to "study, study, study". Buy the books, go to the shows, get opinions from those you trust in the hobby. In general, it takes a long time to get to know the art of numismatics."
That is so true, one should study, study, study. Unfortunately, coin doctors are good. Very good. It might not be far to say that they fool everyone on occasion. Even one of the most self proclaimed astute coin companies around confessed not to long ago to buying puttied saints.
The coin doctors fool the best of us including the grading services that see millions and millions of coins.
We all make mistakes - we all fall down. It's how we get up that's important.
As an aside....I'm really disappointed that that Peace dollar is AT. What a huge bummer. Not the financial part although that sucks too. The fact that I finally got to handle a monster Peace dollar. You just never see them. NEVER. It was the mother of all Peace dollars. And this one looked real to me. Real to NGC. What a moose. What a disappointment. >>
Adrian, just another (of many) reasons why I will always recommend you and Brandon to anyone who is looking to buy beautiful coins from a fair and professional dealer. You commented, "it's how you get back up that counts" ...well you're standing tall in my book.
Exactly! He's the only one who can give the final word. Other than that, we can only develop our own opinions. >>
Not Exactly - there are certain undisputable characteristics of natural toned coins and there are certain undisputable characteristics of artificially or accelerated toned coins. Admittedly, there are some coins that fall somewhere in the middle and are open to legitimate debate. The Peace $ in question is not one of them. If you are waiting for the doctors to come out of the woodwork to confirm for you which is which, you will be waiting a long time. You need to understand the characteristics of air transfer, liquid/gas transfer toning and more than anything else appy common sense. Will you be right 100% of the time ? No - but you'll be something close to that and you will certainly avoid paying $14k for a $55 coin.
I think Anaconda should run for the Congress, preferably the Senate, then we could call him Senator.
"Truth is a torch but a tremendous one. That is why we hurry past it, shielding our eyes, indeed, for fear of getting burned." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
THOSE WHO BREAK THIS COMMANDMENT SHALL BE KNOWN HENCEFORTH
AS ............^&%$@# ..... %$#@*& AND FOOLS. >>
Mark, With all do respect, some of us may not have said anything up front because they didn't want to start a flame war or because some of us may want to keep a good relationship going with said dealer. nuff said.
This is why I dont trust toned coins anymore! When I 1st looked at the coin I thought it was "AT" BIG TIME but people who held the coin in there hand where saying it was NT. Now if people who deal in toned coins and grade them have a hard time telling AT from NT how can any one trust toned coins or pay $$$$$ for them?
I've held my tongue until now. Coin looked like a fake from a distance. Typed a response but got cold feet because of past chastising events that people have suffered. SEVERAL board members said they saw the coin IN HAND and said it was a 66 AND the toning was REAL! How does this happen, and now everyone says it was fake? Some people even say they saw it and knew it was fake. Peace dollars DON'T tone the same way. Almost everyone with a little exposure knows they are a totally different animal. Everyone knows about gototoning and his fakes. We have for years. This should not have happened and those board members stating it looked fake in color and grade deserve an appology for saying the emperor has no clothes. Mob mentality again! Go ahead and flame me, I've got my asbestos suit on this time!
People offered their opinions, like MANY times here on the boards. That's how we LEARN, thru other people's opinions, mistakes and experience. I applaud Adrian and his partner for doing what they are doing! Maybe they should have known, I think so. BUT, the fact is they are trying to do the right thing. Not everyone here would do the same. NGC should be held accountable at least for the purchase price and remove the coin from circulation. Just my fifty cents. Ray
You only live life once, enjoy it like it's your last day. It just MIGHT be!
I believe the coin should be left in the holder and let an INFORMED BUYER make any and all decisions. Unless one has seen the coin in question, in hand, remember that wonders can be done with photoshop and other such programs. As I replied in another related thread: It all comes down to one thing - anyone in coins should educate themselves before making any decision. This might be done by LOOKING at many coins (what a novel concept) or by seeking informed peer opinions. Whether the coin that has brought all this attention to the forefront again was AT or NT, what any one person likes about a coin may never agree with anyone else. If the coin was listed for sale at $14.50 or $14,500 if the buyer can afford the price and is happy with the coin that is all that matters. It also needs to be said that ALL TONING is artificial. THe coin was not struck with this surface color. Whether time or expertise improves the appearance and value, if in the buyers opinion it is acceptable, that should be the end of the matter. I believe that there are more than enough AMBULANCE CHASERS elsewhere in the world, that we shouldn't have to put up with them in numismatics.
I have been buying and selling coins for over 40 years, I have NEVER had a major disagreement with any customer. I have always been satisfied with the sale when my customer was satisfied with his purchase. This has always been offered with NO TIME LIMIT. IF the seeling dealer - "ANACONDA" offered a no questions asked buy back, NO ONE ELSE of you should be involved in making the decision making for either of the two parties involved in this transaction.
<< <i>Unless one has seen the coin in question, in hand, remember that wonders can be done with photoshop >>
Do you think that the orininal pic/s of the coin as posted here were/are accurate? Would there be as much hoopla if the coin was a 63 and of course commensurately less than $14K instead of a 66?
I believe that the pics posted here, especially the picture showing the coin in the NGC 66* holder are a good representative. I WOULD HAVE NOT priced the coin at the level that was presented, but I have no idea what ANACONDA might have paid/felt the coin was worth. When all is said and done that is all that matters, what the seller and the buyer agree is the price of admission. Both parties went in with eyes open and made THEIR OWN decision.
In the original thread I chose to nicely say I don't like toning like that. It screamed AT to me but I am certainly no expert on toning. As a matter of fact I learned my lessons the hard way, i.e. bought some AT'd coins.
Adrian, I have to disagree with your comment that being a critic is child's play. It's good for the hobby and the folks in here to be able to read criticism of a coin, sellers practices etc. Not all of us share the same experiences you've had, not all of us have the investment in coins that you have. Not all of us use the arguement to sell coins, that one mans treasure is another man's folly and the one who treasures it should step up to the plate and pay what I think its worth.
To paraphrase, if you can't stand the heat in the oven of a baked coin then stay out of the kitchen. BTW TDN I agree 100% with your first post to this thread.
Adrian more folks understand the toned market then you seem to want to give credit too.
Comments
<< <i>and Laura isn't even involved....
Why should she. Her market report just indicated NGC was tightening up its standards.
The fact of the matter is, the coin looks AT, and there's even more grossly AT coins in holders as it is. Simply put it just looks like heat was applied to the center of the coin, as mentioned before. In a holder or not the coin is AT. If PCI slabbed this coin, everyone would say, IT'S AT AND NOT A MS66*. But since NGC slabbed it, it had to be true that it was natural.
People just reaped the 'rewards' of buying the holder this time.
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
Well said. We learn, and move on to better deals.
Partner / Executive VP
Heritage Auctions
<< <i>This has the makings of a 200 post thread. >>
I knew it
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
"Toned Peace"
The fact of the matter is, the coin looks AT"
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Opinions are most accurate regarding Sunday football, on Monday.
My opinion is that the coin looked original, like it had toned in an small manilla envelope. I think the guy who toned the coin did an incredible job. It fooled the graders at NGC, it fooled the guy who sold it to me (he's no newbie), it fooled me and it fooled Brandon. It also fooled a number of highly experienced and intelligent people on this board when an image of the coin was originally posted.
Now that the coin turns out to be an outstanding piece of AT art, some want to say "well, can't you see, it's obviously a fake!" Gimme a break. Try to keep your brilliance a secret unless you were one of the very few people who publicly opined that it was AT from the git go.
The real travesty is that gotoartificialtoning's coins are getting way too close if NGC is slabbing $10,000+ coins..
NGC did not slab a $10,000 coin, that value was placed on it by a seller who thought he could find a "buyer(spelled S_U_C_K_E_R)" to pay him $14, 500. NGC never said it was worth that because it never was.
Anyone who pays that kind of money for a common coin with pretty colors is wasting money. But if thats what they want, what has changed. The coin still looks pretty, AT or NT it was never worth a 5 figure price.
BTW, +1
-Ben
<< <i>"I don't understand why everyone keeps saying this was such a good AT job that it fooled dealers and TPG graders.
The fact of the matter is, the coin looks AT"
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Opinions are most accurate regarding Sunday football, on Monday.
My opinion is that the coin looked original, like it had toned in an small manilla envelope. I think the guy who toned the coin did an incredible job. It fooled the graders at NGC, it fooled the guy who sold it to me (he's no newbie), it fooled me and it fooled Brandon. It also fooled a number of highly experienced and intelligent people on this board when an image of the coin was originally posted.
Now that the coin turns out to be an outstanding piece of AT art, some want to say "well, can't you see, it's obviously a fake!" Gimme a break. Try to keep your brilliance a secret unless you were one of the very few people who publicly opined that it was AT from the git go. >>
Hi, I was one of the people who publicly said it wasn't a coin that exhibited toning like a coin from an envelope to begin with. Back to the whole "homework" front. And I just said, just because the coin "FOOLED THE NGC GRADERS" doesn't mean it was that great. There's much more atrocious/obvious AT coins in TPG holders(Only helping to prove they aren't perfect). Not only did I post in the other threads about this coin, but I posted in the WLH posts about the "SUPER outstanding" toning on them and voiced my opinion on them being AT. Something that hasn't been proven yet but we're constantly seeing closer examples of toning, including green colors.
Clutzy, are you referring to silennium, sulfides, fluoride... or what? Head and Shoulders does wonders for toning coins.
Edit: I had originally posted something much worse in the first thread about it being AT, but in order to avoid the flamefest from everyone praising the coin, I edited the post and said the coin was "beautiful" and just made a small assessment. I'll add a little note onto my original post on the first thread.
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
<< <i>"I don't understand why everyone keeps saying this was such a good AT job that it fooled dealers and TPG graders.
The fact of the matter is, the coin looks AT"
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Opinions are most accurate regarding Sunday football, on Monday.
My opinion is that the coin looked original, like it had toned in an small manilla envelope. I think the guy who toned the coin did an incredible job. It fooled the graders at NGC, it fooled the guy who sold it to me (he's no newbie), it fooled me and it fooled Brandon. It also fooled a number of highly experienced and intelligent people on this board when an image of the coin was originally posted.
Now that the coin turns out to be an outstanding piece of AT art, some want to say "well, can't you see, it's obviously a fake!" Gimme a break. Try to keep your brilliance a secret unless you were one of the very few people who publicly opined that it was AT from the git go. >>
I think you guys should just take your lumps and move on. This coin was no where close to being legitimate.
Sounds like Anaconda has damages beyond the cost of the coin. Now, who to sue?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
That's why I think He should get the 14.5K he was asking for it.
AnacondaRareCoins.com
THOU SHALT NOT TAKE CREDIT FOR KNOWING
A COIN IS AT, UNLESS THEE HATH UTTERED AN OPINION
STATING SUCH ,BEFORE THE FINAL OUTCOME IS KNOWN!
THOSE WHO BREAK THIS COMMANDMENT SHALL BE KNOWN HENCEFORTH
AS ............^&%$@# ..... %$#@*& AND FOOLS.
Camelot
Go back and look at the New England Rare Coin Galleries and Steve Ivy catalogs of late 70s and early 80s vintage to see what NT coins that have been put away for decades look like.
After looking at catalog after catalog and page after page of NT coins you will probably conclude as well that much of the "blast white" stuff so common today has been played with.
<< <i> "At some point in our collecting experiences, we have been told over and over again to "study, study, study". Buy the books, go to the shows, get opinions from those you trust in the hobby. In general, it takes a long time to get to know the art of numismatics."
That is so true, one should study, study, study. Unfortunately, coin doctors are good. Very good. It might not be far to say that they fool everyone on occasion. Even one of the most self proclaimed astute coin companies around confessed not to long ago to buying puttied saints.
The coin doctors fool the best of us including the grading services that see millions and millions of coins.
We all make mistakes - we all fall down. It's how we get up that's important.
As an aside....I'm really disappointed that that Peace dollar is AT. What a huge bummer. Not the financial part although that sucks too. The fact that I finally got to handle a monster Peace dollar. You just never see them. NEVER. It was the mother of all Peace dollars. And this one looked real to me. Real to NGC. What a moose. What a disappointment. >>
Adrian, just another (of many) reasons why I will always recommend you and Brandon to anyone who is looking to buy beautiful coins from a fair and professional dealer. You commented, "it's how you get back up that counts" ...well you're standing tall in my book.
How about the dude that AT'd it?
<< <i>"Who's to say it's not natural?"
How about the dude that AT'd it? >>
Exactly! He's the only one who can give the final word. Other than that, we can only develop our own opinions.
<< <i>
<< <i>"Who's to say it's not natural?"
How about the dude that AT'd it? >>
Exactly! He's the only one who can give the final word. Other than that, we can only develop our own opinions. >>
Not Exactly - there are certain undisputable characteristics of natural toned coins and there are certain undisputable characteristics of artificially or accelerated toned coins. Admittedly, there are some coins that fall somewhere in the middle and are open to legitimate debate. The Peace $ in question is not one of them. If you are waiting for the doctors to come out of the woodwork to confirm for you which is which, you will be waiting a long time. You need to understand the characteristics of air transfer, liquid/gas transfer toning and more than anything else appy common sense. Will you be right 100% of the time ? No - but you'll be something close to that and you will certainly avoid paying $14k for a $55 coin.
Don't even think for one cotton pickin' second that
PCGS would EVER slab this A.T'd piece of crap-
And you poofie's that are starting to imply it might be natural ;
i pity your ignorance
Don't even think for one cotton pickin' second that
PCGS would EVER slab this A.T'd piece of crap-
And you poofie's that are starting to imply it might be natural ;
i pity your ignorance "
Harsh words usually evidence a weak argument.
What ever happened to those blazing blue nickels that PCGS holdered? Were they ever proven to be AT? I have some in ANACS holders.
Just curious. Never saw a single one in an NGC holder.
<< <i>Looks like someone hit the BIN on his other Peace dollar.
"Toned Peace" >>
A fellow board member.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Whats the difference how it got that way anyhow?
<< <i>i would say the demon here is NGC - and they should be punished ;severly.
Don't even think for one cotton pickin' second that
PCGS would EVER slab this A.T'd piece of crap-
And you poofie's that are starting to imply it might be natural ;
i pity your ignorance >>
They had no problem slabbing this one by our favorite ebay doctor.
Or this one either..
<< <i>I think Anaconda should run for the Congress, preferably the Senate, then we could call him Senator. >>
Or we could call him Loser. (And be justified in doing so)
Either way.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
<< <i>All say after me the 11th commandment:
THOU SHALT NOT TAKE CREDIT FOR KNOWING
A COIN IS AT, UNLESS THEE HATH UTTERED AN OPINION
STATING SUCH ,BEFORE THE FINAL OUTCOME IS KNOWN!
THOSE WHO BREAK THIS COMMANDMENT SHALL BE KNOWN HENCEFORTH
AS ............^&%$@# ..... %$#@*& AND FOOLS. >>
Mark, With all do respect, some of us may not have said anything up front because they didn't want to start a flame war or because some of us may want to keep a good relationship going with said dealer. nuff said.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
<< <i>
<< <i>i would say the demon here is NGC - and they should be punished ;severly.
Don't even think for one cotton pickin' second that
PCGS would EVER slab this A.T'd piece of crap-
And you poofie's that are starting to imply it might be natural ;
i pity your ignorance >>
They had no problem slabbing this one by our favorite ebay doctor.
Or this one either..
Yup, the Gollum has been drinking too much PCGS Kool-Aid.
It appears to me that PCGS has holdered far more AT/questionable modern proof coins than NGC has.
People offered their opinions, like MANY times here on the boards. That's how we LEARN, thru other people's opinions, mistakes and experience. I applaud Adrian and his partner for doing what they are doing! Maybe they should have known, I think so. BUT, the fact is they are trying to do the right thing. Not everyone here would do the same. NGC should be held accountable at least for the purchase price and remove the coin from circulation. Just my fifty cents. Ray
Unless one has seen the coin in question, in hand, remember that wonders can be done with photoshop
and other such programs. As I replied in another related thread:
It all comes down to one thing - anyone in coins should educate themselves before making any decision.
This might be done by LOOKING at many coins (what a novel concept) or by seeking informed peer opinions.
Whether the coin that has brought all this attention to the forefront again was AT or NT, what any one
person likes about a coin may never agree with anyone else. If the coin was listed for sale at $14.50 or
$14,500 if the buyer can afford the price and is happy with the coin that is all that matters.
It also needs to be said that ALL TONING is artificial. THe coin was not struck with this surface color.
Whether time or expertise improves the appearance and value, if in the buyers opinion it is acceptable,
that should be the end of the matter. I believe that there are more than enough AMBULANCE CHASERS
elsewhere in the world, that we shouldn't have to put up with them in numismatics.
I have been buying and selling coins for over 40 years, I have NEVER had a major disagreement with any customer.
I have always been satisfied with the sale when my customer was satisfied with his purchase.
This has always been offered with NO TIME LIMIT. IF the seeling dealer - "ANACONDA" offered a no questions asked
buy back, NO ONE ELSE of you should be involved in making the decision making for either of the two parties involved
in this transaction.
NUF SAID.
<< <i>Unless one has seen the coin in question, in hand, remember that wonders can be done with photoshop >>
Do you think that the orininal pic/s of the coin as posted here were/are accurate? Would there be as much hoopla if the coin was a 63 and of course commensurately less than $14K instead of a 66?
I WOULD HAVE NOT priced the coin at the level that was presented, but I have no idea what ANACONDA might have paid/felt the coin was worth.
When all is said and done that is all that matters, what the seller and the buyer agree is the price of admission.
Both parties went in with eyes open and made THEIR OWN decision.
Adrian, I have to disagree with your comment that being a critic is child's play. It's good for the hobby and the folks in here to be able to read criticism of a coin, sellers practices etc. Not all of us share the same experiences you've had, not all of us have the investment in coins that you have. Not all of us use the arguement to sell coins, that one mans treasure is another man's folly and the one who treasures it should step up to the plate and pay what I think its worth.
To paraphrase, if you can't stand the heat in the oven of a baked coin then stay out of the kitchen. BTW TDN I agree 100% with your first post to this thread.
Adrian more folks understand the toned market then you seem to want to give credit too.