<< <i> If you truely know your series and have developed some expertise in that area... You then know what to look for, what to expect, what to purchase and what to avoid...... >>
Even the best, most seasoned collector can be fooled Hepkitty, witness your 1961 Frankie toner.
"Wars are really ugly! They're dirty and they're cold. I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole." Mary
Well, if this gets back to NGC, the end result will likely be more NT coins getting bodybagged for artificial color. Even now NT coins get bodybagged far more often than AT coins getting holdered. Case in point:
I just had two 1958 Frankies straight out of a mint set bagged by NGC for "artificial color". They were kind of funky so I knew there was a chance they would get bagged, but I thought the graders would have seen enough shades of 1958 mint set coins to know they were NT -- I guess not!!
Apparently, PCGS had seen these colors before --- two 1958 quarters from the same card were placed in MS64 holders. I foolishly thougt NGC might give the Frankies a "star".
I very much doubt there was ever a clearer legal case to be made against a doctor (Gototoning). >>
While I will be happy to bring this to the attention of NCA, I strongly disagree with the above statement. To my knowledge, as much as I despise what the Ebay seller appears to be doing to coins, there is nothing ILLEGAL about it, whatsoever. Such a case would probably never stand even a remote chance in court. >>
Certainly, if a coin doctor buys a coin for $40 cooks it up and sells it on E-Bay for $55 - there is not a lot of harm done. Worst case someone is out of a few bucks once they come to the realization the coin is AT and misrepresented. In most legal circles this would be dismissed as frivolous and not worth everyone's effort. The issue would probably never even get that far. The problem occurs if the $55 cooked up coin is sold to an unsuspecting buyer for $14k under FALSE representations. Whether the false representations were purposeful or negligent the buyer is still financially harmed to a material extent and in my opinion has legal recourse. Additionally, if TPG's are the enabling force to allow certain sellers to gouge consumers out of material amounts of money, they have culpability here also - in my opinion.
<< <i>Unfortunately coin doctors are becoming very good at what they are doing >>
That's what I find most disturbing about this situation and others where this particular cooker's work has gotten past the major TPG's - he ain't that good. In fact, his work is very easy to spot.
<< <i>The coins look the same to me. I have not read the thread but thought I'd jump in. How's the water? >>
Oh, you're no fun.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>From a collector perspective, TDN is 100% absolutely correct. I am glad that some one of his stature weighed in on this.
My response to your comments is please don't play the spin game and blame the collector or investor - Dealers know what coins they are handling. They also know when someone is about to get buried in it. There were public false representations made about the origin of this coin. This had the potential to fool an unknowing buyer. There is absolutely no excuse for the holdering and marketing of this coin. >>
I also have withheld comment up till this point. But let me now let it fly. I am a collector NOT a dealer. Collectors put some amount of faith in a dealer, and a dealer knows (or should know) about what they are selling or just as important WHAT THEY ARE SAYING about a coin they are trying to sell. For example-I am a Pharmacist and I could really pull the wool over many unsuspecting, yet trusting, customers on a daily basis---WHY---BECAUSE THEY WANT TO TRUST ME. They come to me- the Pharmacist (or in this analogy-the coin dealer) because they assume I will point them in the right direction and not try to sell them the kitchen sink for their common cold just to turn a profit for myself.
There are some real jerks working in Pharmacy's out there and there are some real jerks selling coins also----AVOID BOTH. Not pointing a finger at anyone here because I don't know enough specifics, BUT !!!!!!!
We, as part of the coin collecting community, can't just sit back and say-Buyer Beware, or a fool and his money are soon parted, or any crap like that. THIS IS WRONG.......IT PUTS A SCAR ON OUR HOBBY, AND A SCAR ON SOME OF YOUR PROFESSIONS. When there is immoral or unethical crap that is dicovered in a Pharmacy or by a Pharmacist, ACTION IS TAKEN against the store or Pharmacist personally and professionally---WHY---TO PROTECT THE FUTURE OF THE PROFESSION... Well this has to start in numismatics also---------------!!!
Nuff said >>
Well, since you are using a pharmacutical (sp?) analogy then how about this...why do drug companies sometimes get sued for previously unknown post-use side effects? Because even the experts can never be 100% certain that a product is exactly what they initially believe it to be! There is risk in everything we do - but the key is to use best intentions - and based on Brandon's story, Anaconda, via NGC, has done that here. >>
Drug companies DO NOT get sued for previously unknown post-side effects, they get sued for known side effects that are "covered up" or "skewed", or to bring this analogy full circle, "doctored" results. And in the case of a pharmaceutical house, when the truth is uncovered (like here), there is a price to be paid - whether it is a financial loss (being sued) or a professional intervention (the FDA pulling the plug on the drug). There is no going back to business as usual. Some dealers stepped right up to the plate here---WHY??? Again- if I posted this same coin raw, would these same dealers have stepped up to the plate with the same conclusion? Answer that to yourself honestly. Now you know why this is a big deal. Many collectors said and thought one thing, yet many dealers said and thought (I assume) another thing that has since been shown to be questionable. Intellegence should lead you to ask why. Now ethics should lead them to answer why....
<< <i>Unfortunately coin doctors are becoming very good at what they are doing >>
That's what I find most disturbing about this situation and others where this particular cooker's work has gotten past the major TPG's - he ain't that good. In fact, his work is very easy to spot.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ,
I think you are correct. The most disturbing thing is that the TPG's are letting this crap into their holders. From the gototoning pics, the coin is blatant AT. How could they miss it?
Gototonings been around forever, and by now has made literally thousands of these things. He's getting better, too............ but they still look all the same! As Monsterman once said regarding these docs, they may get a couple through, but the graders will start to recognize their work (since they are all similar) and start bodybagging them. Well NGC and PCGS, take a good look! BTW, I am not surprised that it was a peace dollar that got through instead of one of his morgans. Peace dollars with outstanding color are such a rare bird (and yes, real ones certainly exist......Jeremy's comes to mind), the graders are looking at something they just don't see very often. Well, they've seen it now! This thread needs to be plastered all over the grading room.
Certainly, if a coin doctor buys a coin for $40 cooks it up and sells it on E-Bay for $55 - there is not a lot of harm done. Worst case someone is out of a few bucks once they come to the realization the coin is AT and misrepresented. In most legal circles this would be dismissed as frivolous and not worth everyone's effort. The issue would probably never even get that far. The problem occurs if the $55 cooked up coin is sold to an unsuspecting buyer for $14k under FALSE representations. Whether the false representations were purposeful or negligent the buyer is still financially harmed to a material extent and in my opinion has legal recourse. Additionally, if TPG's are the enabling force to allow certain sellers to gouge consumers out of material amounts of money, they have culpability here also - in my opinion. >>
The dollar amount is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether the seller warrants that the coin is naturally toned. If the seller just says the coin is "toned," even if it turns out the coin is AT, there's no misrepresentation.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
<< <i>Gototonings been around forever, and by now has made literally thousands of these things. He's getting better, too............ but they still look all the same! As Monsterman once said regarding these docs, they may get a couple through, but the graders will start to recognize their work (since they are all similar) and start bodybagging them. Well NGC and PCGS, take a good look! BTW, I am not surprised that it was a peace dollar that got through instead of one of his morgans. Peace dollars with outstanding color are such a rare bird (and yes, real ones certainly exist......Jeremy's comes to mind), the graders are looking at something they just don't see very often. Well, they've seen it now! This thread needs to be plastered all over the grading room. >>
I think the rarity of such an item should of jumped out to them. Peace dollars do not tone this way naturally.
Btw, Pinks as shown in the gototoning pics, are a rare color on a coin
Secondrepublic, the seller never claims his garbage is natural............which is how hw gets away with it. 'Description: THIS IS A 1923 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR WITH COLORFUL TARGET RAINBOW TONED! GEM BU. '
<< <i>Secondrepublic, the seller never claims his garbage is natural............which is how hw gets away with it. 'Description: THIS IS A 1923 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR WITH COLORFUL TARGET RAINBOW TONED! GEM BU. ' >>
I'm talking about what's legal and illegal, not about right and wrong.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
<<<I think the rarity of such an item should of jumped out to them. Peace dollars do not tone this way naturally.
Btw, Pinks as shown in the gototoning pics, are a rare color on a coin >>>
A very few of them do tone wildly, and the rarity is what would throw them. They would have made a judgment on the coin based on the way the colors sat, their order, luster etc as opposed to familiarity..............I can pretty much tell you if a morgan is real or cooked at a glance because I am familiar with the series and have seen thousands of them.I am in no way making excuses for the graders, I agree they should not have holdered it if they had any reservations whatsoever. I am just trying to explain how this happened, and to let some of you know that the sky is not falling. This will get back to the TPG's, and I would like to think in the future it will be almost immpossible to get a coin like this holdered. All those Jefferson nickels come to mind...........and they ain't makin' it in slabs no more. Come to think of it, this whole deal is not unlike the 'Peakock Ikes', isn't it Braddick...............
So if gototoning swore under oath that he did indeed doctor the color of this coin would NGC have to pay out 14,000?--------------------------------------------BigE
<< <i>So if gototoning swore under oath that he did indeed doctor the color of this coin would NGC have to pay out 14,000?--------------------------------------------BigE >>
If it got to that point, it would be a bad business move by NGC, unless they then also decided to stop grading 'monster toned' coins. It would basically guarentee doctors a payday should they be able to get the coins through at NGC.
So if gototoning swore under oath that he did indeed doctor the color of this coin would NGC have to pay out 14,000?--------------------------------------------BigE Good question..........I bet they offer grey sheet on the coin if they were to offer anything.
<< <i>Unfortunately coin doctors are becoming very good at what they are doing >>
That's what I find most disturbing about this situation and others where this particular cooker's work has gotten past the major TPG's - he ain't that good. In fact, his work is very easy to spot.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ,
I think you are correct. The most disturbing thing is that the TPG's are letting this crap into their holders. From the gototoning pics, the coin is blatant AT. How could they miss it? >>
That coin may hve been "enhanced" more AFTER if was purchased for $55 from gototoning to disguise the AT look - You'd have to have seen the coin when it arrived to the Purchaser (frankw8768 an ebay member since Sep-20-05) and compared it to what it looked like when it was sold to ARC - something that only 1 or 2 people would have been able to do - and they may be the very persons who "created" the "Story" that was "spun" during the sales pitch.
According to the Ebay listing the coin was Purchased as a "Buy-it-Now" item on October 22, 2005. The coin then shows up at LB - (Feb 9-10, 2006) graded as MS66* - Per the "STORY" that was provided with the coin - it had sat in an envelope for 80+ years - and was bought raw. Whether it was a "walk through submission" or sent to NGC is not known - that would be in the NGC grading submission records - but the coin was then sold, with the "Story" in a legit TPGS holder. There was plenty of time to "suppliment" the toning on that coin - To me, that coin, though with the same "Markers" on the toning pattern does NOT look the same as the one sold by gototoning - Could be 1 of 2 things - exactly the same coin and different methods of photography so it "Looks" different in the images, OR, same coin with the toning "enhanced" and that's why the coloration is different. As I said - only a couple of people know what the truth is, and If I was a betting person, I'd bet whoever sold that coin to ARC knows what the truth is as to the background on that coin.
Maybe someone needs to ask THAT person a few questions.
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
No business strike 1923 Peace dollar is worth $14,000 to me, regardless of grade or color. Some people may be willing to pay that amount, but the fact remains that it is a VERY common coin with a thin layer of colorful tarnish on its surface. Just think about all of the wonderful things you could buy in US coins with $14,000 and ask yourself why anyone would want to spend that much on an uber-common 1923 Peace Dollar. I am not criticizing anyone or trying to upset the forum members who collect toned coins, but there is a point where a reality check is in order, and this thread is a great learning experience for all of us.
<< <i>Could be 1 of 2 things - exactly the same coin and different methods of photography so it "Looks" different in the images, OR, same coin with the toning "enhanced" and that's why the coloration is different. >>
Actually there's a third, and quite likely explanation. The coin changed during the period of time between when it was purchased on eBay and holdered by NGC. Some of this guy's coins do precisely that. The toning becomes darker and richer in color as time goes on.
"While I will be happy to bring this to the attention of NCA, I strongly disagree with the above statement. To my knowledge, as much as I despise what the Ebay seller appears to be doing to coins, there is nothing ILLEGAL about it, whatsoever. Such a case would probably never stand even a remote chance in court."
Mark: Isn't there some criiminal provisions out there against defacing the national currency? Just a thought.
In a number of the series I deal in right now, the AT coins are appearing like wildfire and commanding upwards of tens of thousands of dollars in the top grading companys' holders. It baffles me as well how these coins continue to get through the grading services when a multitude of dealers (both world class and just "solid") know they are AT. There are world class graders out there well versed in AT that would command upwards of $750,000- $1,000,000/year salaries to work at the top grading services (you simply can't hire them for $300,000 or $400,000 per year). IMHO - the services should MAKE A STATEMENT and hire one or two of these guys for $1,000,000 each to stop these types of coins (and many other forms of doctoring) from successfully going through the services.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>Could be 1 of 2 things - exactly the same coin and different methods of photography so it "Looks" different in the images, OR, same coin with the toning "enhanced" and that's why the coloration is different. >>
Actually there's a third, and quite likely explanation. The coin changed during the period of time between when it was purchased on eBay and holdered by NGC. Some of this guy's coins do precisely that. The toning becomes darker and richer in color as time goes on.
Russ, NCNE >>
Exactly - and that's because the chemicals or method of toning is NOT stable - the silver continues to react with whatever (sometype of sulphur compound) was used to tone the coin - it may get even darker as time goes on - It may have looked different even when NGC graded it - the "toning" agent may be "ON" the coin as opposed to toning caused by the coin's storage environment. As I said earlier - the person who we should be asking these questions is the dealer who sold that coin to ARC.
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
Isn't there some criiminal provisions out there against defacing the national currency? Just a thought.
Let me take a stab at this.... First of all, unless there were something else going on (like misrepresenting the coin as being natural, when it was really AT), no one would ever bring this kind of case. Second, a lawyer would argue that artificially toning a coin is no different than dipping a coin (which is widely done and accepted in numismatics). Arguably, dipping a coin is legally more "defacing," because dipping literally removes some of the coin's surface.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
Drug companies DO NOT get sued for previously unknown post-side effects, they get sued for known side effects that are "covered up" or "skewed", or to bring this analogy full circle, "doctored" results. And in the case of a pharmaceutical house, when the truth is uncovered (like here), there is a price to be paid - whether it is a financial loss (being sued) or a professional intervention (the FDA pulling the plug on the drug). There is no going back to business as usual. Some dealers stepped right up to the plate here---WHY??? Again- if I posted this same coin raw, would these same dealers have stepped up to the plate with the same conclusion? Answer that to yourself honestly. Now you know why this is a big deal. Many collectors said and thought one thing, yet many dealers said and thought (I assume) another thing that has since been shown to be questionable. Intellegence should lead you to ask why. Now ethics should lead them to answer why.... >>
Not true from the beginning, drug companies DO get sued, even for previously unknown or unsuspected side effects - though the lawsuits are MUCH more severe if their is proof of "cover up". It's just a cost of doing business. Think Thalidomide versus Vioxx... I'd love to take that argument offline with you 'cause this is a coin thread (although I think that Saintguru must be "under the influence )
Two things stand out to me as a result of this issue: The relative insanity of the money flying around chasing toning, and the credibility of TPG's. Since in the end I can personally do nothing to make people "keep it in their pants" (their money, you of the dirty mind), it is an individuals' responsibility to spend their hard-earned cash wisely. If a dealer leads them to a "great coin" that turns out to be doctored, you will find out how good that dealer is in standing behind their product. Possibly the courts will be invited in to the specific dispute.
The credibility of the TPG's is a much bigger issue. Can the coin world survive a crisis of confidence? What will NGC's response be to this? Now all toned coins will be suspect? How 'bout dipped, versus "heavily dipped"? So much in grading is totally subjective, down to the mood of an individual grader. Is tougher better?
<< <i>No business strike 1923 Peace dollar is worth $14,000 to me, regardless of grade or color. Some people may be willing to pay that amount, but the fact remains that it is a VERY common coin with a thin layer of colorful tarnish on its surface. Just think about all of the wonderful things you could buy in US coins with $14,000 and ask yourself why anyone would want to spend that much on an uber-common 1923 Peace Dollar. I am not criticizing anyone or trying to upset the forum members who collect toned coins, but there is a point where a reality check is in order, and this thread is a great learning experience for all of us. >>
Just got back from a little vacation, so this is all fresh to me. GREAT POST !!! GREAT THREAD !!! GREAT COMMENTARIES !!!
At some point in our collecting experiences, we have been told over and over again to "study, study, study". Buy the books, go to the shows, get opinions from those you trust in the hobby. In general, it takes a long time to get to know the art of numismatics.
What it boils down to is the fact that there isn't some miracle machine that is determining grade and surface originality on coins. Its others like you and I. Plain old people. There are countless thousands of dipped coins in slabs, and there are thousands of AT coins in slabs.
This Peace will probably get dipped and end up in a slab again. When it does, there's a good chance that it will pass through more hands before anyone questions its originality. Happens every day whether we want to think about it or not.
As far as greed or deception goes... I'm not judge or jury. Its my own responsibility to become knowledgeable enough to see a dipped or AT surface and avoid those pieces if I don't like them. And its my responsibility to shy away from making a purchase from anyone that might not know the difference.
The slab pretty much just says "Yep, I'm a coin being protected in plastic, and some guy thinks that I'm original"
"At some point in our collecting experiences, we have been told over and over again to "study, study, study". Buy the books, go to the shows, get opinions from those you trust in the hobby. In general, it takes a long time to get to know the art of numismatics."
That is so true, one should study, study, study. Unfortunately, coin doctors are good. Very good. It might not be far to say that they fool everyone on occasion. Even one of the most self proclaimed astute coin companies around confessed not to long ago to buying puttied saints.
The coin doctors fool the best of us including the grading services that see millions and millions of coins.
We all make mistakes - we all fall down. It's how we get up that's important.
As an aside....I'm really disappointed that that Peace dollar is AT. What a huge bummer. Not the financial part although that sucks too. The fact that I finally got to handle a monster Peace dollar. You just never see them. NEVER. It was the mother of all Peace dollars. And this one looked real to me. Real to NGC. What a moose. What a disappointment.
I agree one hundred percent anaconda. The doctors are getting better all the time. BUT, we are too. The doctors have always been able to fool us along the way. We have gotten better, so they had to also. All we can do as a collective group is find them, bring them to light, and put the hammer down on them.
BTW, I've purchased pieces from you at shows, and undoubtably will again.
I think this thread has been a tremendous learning experience for each of us. A bit of a wake up call.
<< the dealers rallied around and said it was natural no matter what.>>
I may be harsh sometimes lately, but here is what I think:
It is apparent that even the experts are not able to tell the difference between a good AT job, and NT. Don't tell me that a peace dollar is even CLOSE to coming out that way naturally. Why anyone would pay over $1000 for a common peace dollar in any grade is beyond me.
I agree with jamesfsm. Paying any higher price for a coin because of this rainbow toning, is fools gold. I've seen Anaconda do this MANY a times, and you board members have exposed them on similar listings in the past. (buying something for small dollars, and then listing it for HUGE dollars).
Does anyone really read all of the responses and remember the old threads.. I remember when someone took a ANACS Artifical toned Common Morgan removed it from it's slab then tried to sell if for 3000.00 with a garuntee to purchase it back for 10,000.00 if someone got it graded by either PCGS or NGC Isn't this much of the same thing except someone got the brass ring certified.
"Does anyone really read all of the responses and remember the old threads.. I remember when someone took a ANACS Artifical toned Common Morgan removed it from it's slab then tried to sell if for 3000.00 with a garuntee to purchase it back for 10,000.00 if someone got it graded by either PCGS or NGC Isn't this much of the same thing except someone got the brass ring certified. "
I remember that coin. The seller made good on the coin. We worked it out.
The only way to keep from making mistakes is to do nothing. Being a critic is child's play.
How many were collecting toned coins 30 years ago? I know I was and the vibrant colors seen today just were not around back then. I would guess 50% or MORE of the so called bag toned morgans in slabs are AT. If Adrian can sell coins like this for 14K -more power to him. He is very good at marketing toned coins. If any one is at fault it is NGC.......... I think they owe Adrian some money -maybe not 14K but surely 12K . mike
<<< I understand that even the so-called "experts" are fooled. Enough for me. >>>
.....and another naive comment. These so called experts are also fooled by re-colored copper, puttied gold, lasered proof coins, repaired and AT'd early bust material, and everything else under the sun. To single out AT'd coins alone is short sighted.
<<< I would guess 50% or MORE of the so called bag toned morgans in slabs are AT. >>>
That estimate is WAY WAY overstated, what you may not realize is that many of the spectacular bad toned material was not yet discovered and in collectors hands 30 yrs. ago.
Another thing most don't realize is that very few coins are AT'd by the coin docs for their beauty, but rather to mask other problems on the coin such as hairlines, small repairs, etc.
<< <i>That estimate is WAY WAY overstated, what you may not realize is that many of the spectacular bad toned material was not yet discovered and in collectors hands 30 yrs. ago. >>
Yeah- I guess it could be MUCH MUCH higher than 50%. I have heard all these stories why they were not around in huge numbers 30 years ago- the fact remains they were not to be found. Kind of funny how the demand for them goes up and all of a sudden their are many thousands of them. We can fool ourselves into believing what we want to believe- I know I did for a while.....
Comments
<< <i>
If you truely know your series and have developed some expertise in that area... You then know what to look for, what to expect, what to purchase and what to
avoid...... >>
Even the best, most seasoned collector can be fooled Hepkitty, witness your 1961 Frankie toner.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
I just had two 1958 Frankies straight out of a mint set bagged by NGC for "artificial color". They were kind of funky so I knew there was a chance they would get bagged, but I thought the graders would have seen enough shades of 1958 mint set coins to know they were NT -- I guess not!!
Apparently, PCGS had seen these colors before --- two 1958 quarters from the same card were placed in MS64 holders. I foolishly thougt NGC might give the Frankies a "star".
<< <i>gototoninghell's corner... >>
<< <i>
<< <i>Where is your Coin Posse now??
Laura???? Mark???? Anyone?????
I very much doubt there was ever a clearer legal case to be made against a doctor (Gototoning). >>
While I will be happy to bring this to the attention of NCA, I strongly disagree with the above statement. To my knowledge, as much as I despise what the Ebay seller appears to be doing to coins, there is nothing ILLEGAL about it, whatsoever. Such a case would probably never stand even a remote chance in court. >>
Certainly, if a coin doctor buys a coin for $40 cooks it up and sells it on E-Bay for $55 - there is not a lot of harm done. Worst case someone is out of a few bucks once they come to the realization the coin is AT and misrepresented. In most legal circles this would be dismissed as frivolous and not worth everyone's effort. The issue would probably never even get that far. The problem occurs if the $55 cooked up coin is sold to an unsuspecting buyer for $14k under FALSE representations. Whether the false representations were purposeful or negligent the buyer is still financially harmed to a material extent and in my opinion has legal recourse. Additionally, if TPG's are the enabling force to allow certain sellers to gouge consumers out of material amounts of money, they have culpability here also - in my opinion.
<< <i>Unfortunately coin doctors are becoming very good at what they are doing >>
That's what I find most disturbing about this situation and others where this particular cooker's work has gotten past the major TPG's - he ain't that good. In fact, his work is very easy to spot.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>The coins look the same to me. I have not read the thread but thought I'd jump in. How's the water? >>
Oh, you're no fun.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>From a collector perspective, TDN is 100% absolutely correct. I am glad that some one of his stature weighed in on this.
My response to your comments is please don't play the spin game and blame the collector or investor - Dealers know what coins they are handling. They also know when someone is about to get buried in it. There were public false representations made about the origin of this coin. This had the potential to fool an unknowing buyer. There is absolutely no excuse for the holdering and marketing of this coin. >>
I also have withheld comment up till this point. But let me now let it fly. I am a collector NOT a dealer. Collectors put some amount of faith in a dealer, and a dealer knows (or should know) about what they are selling or just as important WHAT THEY ARE SAYING about a coin they are trying to sell. For example-I am a Pharmacist and I could really pull the wool over many unsuspecting, yet trusting, customers on a daily basis---WHY---BECAUSE THEY WANT TO TRUST ME. They come to me- the Pharmacist (or in this analogy-the coin dealer) because they assume I will point them in the right direction and not try to sell them the kitchen sink for their common cold just to turn a profit for myself.
There are some real jerks working in Pharmacy's out there and there are some real jerks selling coins also----AVOID BOTH.
Not pointing a finger at anyone here because I don't know enough specifics, BUT !!!!!!!
We, as part of the coin collecting community, can't just sit back and say-Buyer Beware, or a fool and his money are soon parted, or any crap like that. THIS IS WRONG.......IT PUTS A SCAR ON OUR HOBBY, AND A SCAR ON SOME OF YOUR PROFESSIONS. When there is immoral or unethical crap that is dicovered in a Pharmacy or by a Pharmacist, ACTION IS TAKEN against the store or Pharmacist personally and professionally---WHY---TO PROTECT THE FUTURE OF THE PROFESSION... Well this has to start in numismatics also---------------!!!
Nuff said >>
Well, since you are using a pharmacutical (sp?) analogy then how about this...why do drug companies sometimes get sued for previously unknown post-use side effects? Because even the experts can never be 100% certain that a product is exactly what they initially believe it to be! There is risk in everything we do - but the key is to use best intentions - and based on Brandon's story, Anaconda, via NGC, has done that here. >>
Drug companies DO NOT get sued for previously unknown post-side effects, they get sued for known side effects that are "covered up" or "skewed", or to bring this analogy full circle, "doctored" results. And in the case of a pharmaceutical house, when the truth is uncovered (like here), there is a price to be paid - whether it is a financial loss (being sued) or a professional intervention (the FDA pulling the plug on the drug). There is no going back to business as usual.
Some dealers stepped right up to the plate here---WHY??? Again- if I posted this same coin raw, would these same dealers have stepped up to the plate with the same conclusion? Answer that to yourself honestly.
Now you know why this is a big deal. Many collectors said and thought one thing, yet many dealers said and thought (I assume) another thing that has since been shown to be questionable. Intellegence should lead you to ask why. Now ethics should lead them to answer why....
<< <i>
<< <i>Unfortunately coin doctors are becoming very good at what they are doing >>
That's what I find most disturbing about this situation and others where this particular cooker's work has gotten past the major TPG's - he ain't that good. In fact, his work is very easy to spot.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ,
I think you are correct. The most disturbing thing is that the TPG's are letting this crap into their holders. From the gototoning pics, the coin is blatant AT. How could they miss it?
BTW, I am not surprised that it was a peace dollar that got through instead of one of his morgans. Peace dollars with outstanding color are such a rare bird (and yes, real ones certainly exist......Jeremy's comes to mind), the graders are looking at something they just don't see very often. Well, they've seen it now!
This thread needs to be plastered all over the grading room.
Certainly, if a coin doctor buys a coin for $40 cooks it up and sells it on E-Bay for $55 - there is not a lot of harm done. Worst case someone is out of a few bucks once they come to the realization the coin is AT and misrepresented. In most legal circles this would be dismissed as frivolous and not worth everyone's effort. The issue would probably never even get that far. The problem occurs if the $55 cooked up coin is sold to an unsuspecting buyer for $14k under FALSE representations. Whether the false representations were purposeful or negligent the buyer is still financially harmed to a material extent and in my opinion has legal recourse. Additionally, if TPG's are the enabling force to allow certain sellers to gouge consumers out of material amounts of money, they have culpability here also - in my opinion. >>
The dollar amount is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether the seller warrants that the coin is naturally toned. If the seller just says the coin is "toned," even if it turns out the coin is AT, there's no misrepresentation.
<< <i>Gototonings been around forever, and by now has made literally thousands of these things. He's getting better, too............ but they still look all the same! As Monsterman once said regarding these docs, they may get a couple through, but the graders will start to recognize their work (since they are all similar) and start bodybagging them. Well NGC and PCGS, take a good look!
BTW, I am not surprised that it was a peace dollar that got through instead of one of his morgans. Peace dollars with outstanding color are such a rare bird (and yes, real ones certainly exist......Jeremy's comes to mind), the graders are looking at something they just don't see very often. Well, they've seen it now!
This thread needs to be plastered all over the grading room. >>
I think the rarity of such an item should of jumped out to them. Peace dollars do not tone this way naturally.
Btw, Pinks as shown in the gototoning pics, are a rare color on a coin
'Description: THIS IS A 1923 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR WITH COLORFUL TARGET RAINBOW TONED! GEM BU. '
<< <i>Secondrepublic, the seller never claims his garbage is natural............which is how hw gets away with it.
'Description: THIS IS A 1923 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR WITH COLORFUL TARGET RAINBOW TONED! GEM BU. ' >>
I'm talking about what's legal and illegal, not about right and wrong.
Btw, Pinks as shown in the gototoning pics, are a rare color on a coin >>>
A very few of them do tone wildly, and the rarity is what would throw them. They would have made a judgment on the coin based on the way the colors sat, their order, luster etc as opposed to familiarity..............I can pretty much tell you if a morgan is real or cooked at a glance because I am familiar with the series and have seen thousands of them.I am in no way making excuses for the graders, I agree they should not have holdered it if they had any reservations whatsoever. I am just trying to explain how this happened, and to let some of you know that the sky is not falling. This will get back to the TPG's, and I would like to think in the future it will be almost immpossible to get a coin like this holdered.
All those Jefferson nickels come to mind...........and they ain't makin' it in slabs no more.
Come to think of it, this whole deal is not unlike the 'Peakock Ikes', isn't it Braddick...............
What's he doing illegally? Please enlighten me, because if it is illegal it would be easy to stop.
Will NGC buy it back and take it off the market??
<< <i>So if gototoning swore under oath that he did indeed doctor the color of this coin would NGC have to pay out 14,000?
If it got to that point, it would be a bad business move by NGC, unless they then also decided to stop grading 'monster toned' coins. It would basically guarentee doctors a payday should they be able to get the coins through at NGC.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
Good question..........I bet they offer grey sheet on the coin if they were to offer anything.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Unfortunately coin doctors are becoming very good at what they are doing >>
That's what I find most disturbing about this situation and others where this particular cooker's work has gotten past the major TPG's - he ain't that good. In fact, his work is very easy to spot.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ,
I think you are correct. The most disturbing thing is that the TPG's are letting this crap into their holders. From the gototoning pics, the coin is blatant AT. How could they miss it? >>
That coin may hve been "enhanced" more AFTER if was purchased for $55 from gototoning to disguise the AT look - You'd have to have seen the coin when it arrived to the Purchaser (frankw8768 an ebay member since Sep-20-05) and compared it to what it looked like when it was sold to ARC - something that only 1 or 2 people would have been able to do - and they may be the very persons who "created" the "Story" that was "spun" during the sales pitch.
According to the Ebay listing the coin was Purchased as a "Buy-it-Now" item on October 22, 2005. The coin then shows up at LB - (Feb 9-10, 2006) graded as MS66* - Per the "STORY" that was provided with the coin - it had sat in an envelope for 80+ years - and was bought raw. Whether it was a "walk through submission" or sent to NGC is not known - that would be in the NGC grading submission records - but the coin was then sold, with the "Story" in a legit TPGS holder. There was plenty of time to "suppliment" the toning on that coin - To me, that coin, though with the same "Markers" on the toning pattern does NOT look the same as the one sold by gototoning - Could be 1 of 2 things - exactly the same coin and different methods of photography so it "Looks" different in the images, OR, same coin with the toning "enhanced" and that's why the coloration is different. As I said - only a couple of people know what the truth is, and If I was a betting person, I'd bet whoever sold that coin to ARC knows what the truth is as to the background on that coin.
Maybe someone needs to ask THAT person a few questions.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>Could be 1 of 2 things - exactly the same coin and different methods of photography so it "Looks" different in the images, OR, same coin with the toning "enhanced" and that's why the coloration is different. >>
Actually there's a third, and quite likely explanation. The coin changed during the period of time between when it was purchased on eBay and holdered by NGC. Some of this guy's coins do precisely that. The toning becomes darker and richer in color as time goes on.
Russ, NCNE
Mark: Isn't there some criiminal provisions out there against defacing the national currency? Just a thought.
In a number of the series I deal in right now, the AT coins are appearing like wildfire and commanding upwards of tens of thousands of dollars in the top grading companys' holders. It baffles me as well how these coins continue to get through the grading services when a multitude of dealers (both world class and just "solid") know they are AT. There are world class graders out there well versed in AT that would command upwards of $750,000- $1,000,000/year salaries to work at the top grading services (you simply can't hire them for $300,000 or $400,000 per year). IMHO - the services should MAKE A STATEMENT and hire one or two of these guys for $1,000,000 each to stop these types of coins (and many other forms of doctoring) from successfully going through the services.
Wondercoin
<< <i>
<< <i>Could be 1 of 2 things - exactly the same coin and different methods of photography so it "Looks" different in the images, OR, same coin with the toning "enhanced" and that's why the coloration is different. >>
Actually there's a third, and quite likely explanation. The coin changed during the period of time between when it was purchased on eBay and holdered by NGC. Some of this guy's coins do precisely that. The toning becomes darker and richer in color as time goes on.
Russ, NCNE >>
Exactly - and that's because the chemicals or method of toning is NOT stable - the silver continues to react with whatever (sometype of sulphur compound) was used to tone the coin - it may get even darker as time goes on - It may have looked different even when NGC graded it - the "toning" agent may be "ON" the coin as opposed to toning caused by the coin's storage environment. As I said earlier - the person who we should be asking these questions is the dealer who sold that coin to ARC.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
Let me take a stab at this.... First of all, unless there were something else going on (like misrepresenting the coin as being natural, when it was really AT), no one would ever bring this kind of case. Second, a lawyer would argue that artificially toning a coin is no different than dipping a coin (which is widely done and accepted in numismatics). Arguably, dipping a coin is legally more "defacing," because dipping literally removes some of the coin's surface.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>
Drug companies DO NOT get sued for previously unknown post-side effects, they get sued for known side effects that are "covered up" or "skewed", or to bring this analogy full circle, "doctored" results. And in the case of a pharmaceutical house, when the truth is uncovered (like here), there is a price to be paid - whether it is a financial loss (being sued) or a professional intervention (the FDA pulling the plug on the drug). There is no going back to business as usual.
Some dealers stepped right up to the plate here---WHY??? Again- if I posted this same coin raw, would these same dealers have stepped up to the plate with the same conclusion? Answer that to yourself honestly.
Now you know why this is a big deal. Many collectors said and thought one thing, yet many dealers said and thought (I assume) another thing that has since been shown to be questionable. Intellegence should lead you to ask why. Now ethics should lead them to answer why.... >>
Not true from the beginning, drug companies DO get sued, even for previously unknown or unsuspected side effects - though the lawsuits are MUCH more severe if their is proof of "cover up". It's just a cost of doing business. Think Thalidomide versus Vioxx... I'd love to take that argument offline with you 'cause this is a coin thread (although I think that Saintguru must be "under the influence
Two things stand out to me as a result of this issue: The relative insanity of the money flying around chasing toning, and the credibility of TPG's. Since in the end I can personally do nothing to make people "keep it in their pants" (their money, you of the dirty mind), it is an individuals' responsibility to spend their hard-earned cash wisely. If a dealer leads them to a "great coin" that turns out to be doctored, you will find out how good that dealer is in standing behind their product. Possibly the courts will be invited in to the specific dispute.
The credibility of the TPG's is a much bigger issue. Can the coin world survive a crisis of confidence? What will NGC's response be to this? Now all toned coins will be suspect? How 'bout dipped, versus "heavily dipped"? So much in grading is totally subjective, down to the mood of an individual grader. Is tougher better?
Lots to think about, and no great answers.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>No business strike 1923 Peace dollar is worth $14,000 to me, regardless of grade or color. Some people may be willing to pay that amount, but the fact remains that it is a VERY common coin with a thin layer of colorful tarnish on its surface. Just think about all of the wonderful things you could buy in US coins with $14,000 and ask yourself why anyone would want to spend that much on an uber-common 1923 Peace Dollar. I am not criticizing anyone or trying to upset the forum members who collect toned coins, but there is a point where a reality check is in order, and this thread is a great learning experience for all of us. >>
how about a legit ms 69 peace?
GREAT POST !!! GREAT THREAD !!! GREAT COMMENTARIES !!!
At some point in our collecting experiences, we have been told over and over again to "study, study, study". Buy the books, go to the shows, get opinions from those you trust in the hobby. In general, it takes a long time to get to know the art of numismatics.
What it boils down to is the fact that there isn't some miracle machine that is determining grade and surface originality on coins. Its others like you and I. Plain old people. There are countless thousands of dipped coins in slabs, and there are thousands of AT coins in slabs.
This Peace will probably get dipped and end up in a slab again. When it does, there's a good chance that it will pass through more hands before anyone questions its originality. Happens every day whether we want to think about it or not.
As far as greed or deception goes... I'm not judge or jury. Its my own responsibility to become knowledgeable enough to see a dipped or AT surface and avoid those pieces if I don't like them. And its my responsibility to shy away from making a purchase from anyone that might not know the difference.
The slab pretty much just says "Yep, I'm a coin being protected in plastic, and some guy thinks that I'm original"
Huge money.
That is so true, one should study, study, study. Unfortunately, coin doctors are good. Very good. It might not be far to say that they fool everyone on occasion. Even one of the most self proclaimed astute coin companies around confessed not to long ago to buying puttied saints.
The coin doctors fool the best of us including the grading services that see millions and millions of coins.
We all make mistakes - we all fall down. It's how we get up that's important.
All we can do as a collective group is find them, bring them to light, and put the hammer down on them.
BTW, I've purchased pieces from you at shows, and undoubtably will again.
I think this thread has been a tremendous learning experience for each of us. A bit of a wake up call.
I may be harsh sometimes lately, but here is what I think:
It is apparent that even the experts are not able to tell the difference between a good AT job, and NT. Don't tell me that a peace dollar is even CLOSE to coming out that way naturally. Why anyone would pay over $1000 for a common peace dollar in any grade is beyond me.
I agree with jamesfsm. Paying any higher price for a coin because of this rainbow toning, is fools gold. I've seen Anaconda do this MANY a times, and you board members have exposed them on similar listings in the past. (buying something for small dollars, and then listing it for HUGE dollars).
I remember when someone took a ANACS Artifical toned Common Morgan removed it from it's slab
then tried to sell if for 3000.00 with a garuntee to purchase it back for 10,000.00 if someone
got it graded by either PCGS or NGC
Isn't this much of the same thing except someone got the brass ring certified.
I remember when someone took a ANACS Artifical toned Common Morgan removed it from it's slab
then tried to sell if for 3000.00 with a garuntee to purchase it back for 10,000.00 if someone
got it graded by either PCGS or NGC
Isn't this much of the same thing except someone got the brass ring certified. "
I remember that coin. The seller made good on the coin. We worked it out.
The only way to keep from making mistakes is to do nothing. Being a critic is child's play.
What a naive, insulting, an completely untrue remark.
If Adrian can sell coins like this for 14K -more power to him. He is very good at marketing toned coins. If any one is at fault it is NGC.......... I think they owe Adrian some money -maybe not 14K but surely 12K
.....and another naive comment. These so called experts are also fooled by re-colored copper, puttied gold, lasered proof coins, repaired and AT'd early bust material, and everything else under the sun. To single out AT'd coins alone is short sighted.
That estimate is WAY WAY overstated, what you may not realize is that many of the spectacular bad toned material was not yet discovered and in collectors hands 30 yrs. ago.
Another thing most don't realize is that very few coins are AT'd by the coin docs for their beauty, but rather to mask other problems on the coin such as hairlines, small repairs, etc.
<< <i>That estimate is WAY WAY overstated, what you may not realize is that many of the spectacular bad toned material was not yet discovered and in collectors hands 30 yrs. ago. >>
Yeah- I guess it could be MUCH MUCH higher than 50%. I have heard all these stories why they were not around in huge numbers 30 years ago- the fact remains they were not to be found. Kind of funny how the demand for them goes up and all of a sudden their are many thousands of them. We can fool ourselves into believing what we want to believe- I know I did for a while.....
put it in a sealed container with a little super glue, let's see what happens!
so what is the big deal anyway? monster toned say what scam?
Neither do I. It appears to be high risk and high reward. It looks like we got burned on the risk side today.