<< <i>I think it should be pointed out that a lot of the "Big Money" beginning to be thown at "monster" toned dollars (Morgans, not Peace) was from the recent Battle Creek Sales where there were some truly amazing colored Morgans also graded at NGC. And importantly, none these BC coins looked remotely like this one, they were taken from sealed Mint bags by NGC. The origin really is important--for example: if you buy a coin that was in the Amon Carter Collection, you get a coin you know got any pretty concentric album colors slowly and naturally from long term storage, NOT a week before it was sold on Ebay-- >>
Not really a fair argument... peace dollars simply don't tone the same way. Let's forget about this coin in particular, but a toned peace dollar will NOT look like your typical toned morgan.
I love how so many people say it's AT now and didn't think so in the Anaconda pictures... The pattern looks fairly clearly like something that was heat toned and it still easily made it into a holder. I stand by my original "Hardly the toning from run of the mill 2x2 holders". I agree with APN, the toning on Peace dollars varies a LOT from Morgan dollars. I'll try to get some pictures of my grandfathers Peace$s in old paper flips over the next week or so.
PS: Wasn't there mention in the other thread about doing homework? Thanks Braddick!
That said, it's very sad to see a forum member get fed lies on a coin he/she buys. Hope everything goes well from here on out.
-Daniel
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
I thought the coin was a knock out and if I was a buyer of Peace Dollars I'd have been tempted, but if some dude on ebay is cranking these out and getting NGC to bless them then I fear for the future of the toned coin market.
I thought the coin was a knock out and if I was a buyer of Peace Dollars I'd have been tempted, but if some dude on ebay is cranking these out and getting NGC to bless them then I fear for the future of the toned coin market. >>
There could come a day that they just won't grade them. Didn't someone on here have a bunch of blue (and other colors) Jefferson Nickels that PCGS stopped grading?
Whoever submitted this coin at the show did so with at least 9 other coins as it is a 009 serial number, spent at least 1000 in fees?--------------------------BigE
I disagree. I've held my tongue ever since seeing the coin at Long Beach. The fact of the matter is that one shouldn't be selling common date/condition Peace Dollars for $14k if one doesn't have the expertise to stand behind the coin [independent of the holder].
I like Adrian personally, but his pricing strategy tends to bury his customers at times.
I disagree. I've held my tongue ever since seeing the coin at Long Beach. The fact of the matter is that one shouldn't be selling common date/condition Peace Dollars for $14k if one doesn't have the expertise to stand behind the coin [independent of the holder].
I like Adrian personally, but his pricing strategy tends to bury his customers at times. >>
How has Anaconda shown they don't stand behind this coin? Just the opposite, he pulled it off the market!
His pricing is an open market pricing...willing buyer and willing seller...plus a return priviledge...buyers that get buried in any area shouldn't invest unless they have a good knowledge of what they are buying and the associated risks.
With respect for your experience and contributions, Doug
I do not think Brandon deserves any praise here at all for one second. I think Pat does. Adrian has always been out on the edge of this stuff. I am sure he can handel himself.
"His pricing is an open market pricing...willing buyer and willing seller...plus a return priviledge...buyers that get buried in any area shouldn't invest unless they have a good knowledge of what they are buying and the associated risks."
I wonder if anyone is buried right now due to not so "good knowledge".
-Daniel
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
Wow! I was definately fooled on this one...I don't think Brandon or Adrian have any fault here. Geez,they bought the coin when it was already in plastic.How could they possibly be blamed at all for listing it? You'd be an idiot not to try to sell a whoopper like that in a * holder. As for NGC, guess they thought it was MA...
IMHO, everyone involved with this coin is at fault. The baker, NGC, the seller who sold it to Anaconda, and Anaconda for not seeing the forest thru the trees. I did not say anything about the original post because I like Brandon. But it was pretty obvious to me, and many others here, that the coin was obviously AT! I think all they saw were big $$$$ when that coin made it's way into an NGC holder, and not the obvious.
<< <i>I love how so many people say it's AT now and didn't think so in the Anaconda pictures... >>
I thought AT the moment I saw it when it was posted here several days ago. Too bad the TPG's don't note the obvious AT on the holder if they are gonna slab this stuff. It so much reminds me of this one.
I disagree. I've held my tongue ever since seeing the coin at Long Beach. The fact of the matter is that one shouldn't be selling common date/condition Peace Dollars for $14k if one doesn't have the expertise to stand behind the coin [independent of the holder].
I like Adrian personally, but his pricing strategy tends to bury his customers at times. >>
How has Anaconda shown they don't stand behind this coin? Just the opposite, he pulled it off the market!
His pricing is an open market pricing...willing buyer and willing seller...plus a return priviledge...buyers that get buried in any area shouldn't invest unless they have a good knowledge of what they are buying and the associated risks.
With respect for your experience and contributions, Doug >>
From a collector perspective, TDN is 100% absolutely correct. I am glad that some one of his stature weighed in on this.
My response to your comments is please don't play the spin game and blame the collector or investor - Dealers know what coins they are handling. They also know when someone is about to get buried in it. There were public false representations made about the origin of this coin. This had the potential to fool an unknowing buyer. There is absolutely no excuse for the holdering and marketing of this coin.
<< <i>IMHO, everyone involved with this coin is at fault. The baker, NGC, the seller who sold it to Anaconda, and Anaconda for not seeing the forest thru the trees. I did not say anything about the original post because I like Brandon. But it was pretty obvious to me, and many others here, that the coin was obviously AT! I think all they saw were big $$$$ when that coin made it's way into an NGC holder, and not the obvious. >>
Everyone has gotten fooled by an AT coin at one point or another,it's not right to blame Anaconda...it's in an NGC holder for crying out loud...
<< <i>From a collector perspective, TDN is 100% absolutely correct. I am glad that some one of his stature weighed in on this.
My response to your comments is please don't play the spin game and blame the collector or investor - Dealers know what coins they are handling. They also know when someone is about to get buried in it. There were public false representations made about the origin of this coin. This had the potential to fool an unknowing buyer. There is absolutely no excuse for the holdering and marketing of this coin. >>
I also have withheld comment up till this point. But let me now let it fly. I am a collector NOT a dealer. Collectors put some amount of faith in a dealer, and a dealer knows (or should know) about what they are selling or just as important WHAT THEY ARE SAYING about a coin they are trying to sell. For example-I am a Pharmacist and I could really pull the wool over many unsuspecting, yet trusting, customers on a daily basis---WHY---BECAUSE THEY WANT TO TRUST ME. They come to me- the Pharmacist (or in this analogy-the coin dealer) because they assume I will point them in the right direction and not try to sell them the kitchen sink for their common cold just to turn a profit for myself.
There are some real jerks working in Pharmacy's out there and there are some real jerks selling coins also----AVOID BOTH. Not pointing a finger at anyone here because I don't know enough specifics, BUT !!!!!!!
We, as part of the coin collecting community, can't just sit back and say-Buyer Beware, or a fool and his money are soon parted, or any crap like that. THIS IS WRONG.......IT PUTS A SCAR ON OUR HOBBY, AND A SCAR ON SOME OF YOUR PROFESSIONS. When there is immoral or unethical crap that is dicovered in a Pharmacy or by a Pharmacist, ACTION IS TAKEN against the store or Pharmacist personally and professionally---WHY---TO PROTECT THE FUTURE OF THE PROFESSION... Well this has to start in numismatics also---------------!!!
<< <i>How has Anaconda shown they don't stand behind this coin? Just the opposite, he pulled it off the market! >>
No, he pulled it off ebay. Until this coin is cracked & dipped (thereby removing the AT & revealing its more likely MS63 grade), there is still potential for fraud in the future sale of this coin.
It is sad to read that many here think this deal is OK because the dealer is a nice guy or because NGC slabbed the coin.
To me, it shows greed and it is not OK.
In the original thread, I was one of the early posters that thought it was AT and I think I was the first to say it was the work of ToneCoin2004, now GOTOTONING.
Despite several collectors saying it was plainly AT, the dealers rallied around and said it was natural no matter what.
I have to give TDN credit for being the first dealer to cast doubt on this coin and its selling price.
<< <i>From a collector perspective, TDN is 100% absolutely correct. I am glad that some one of his stature weighed in on this.
My response to your comments is please don't play the spin game and blame the collector or investor - Dealers know what coins they are handling. They also know when someone is about to get buried in it. There were public false representations made about the origin of this coin. This had the potential to fool an unknowing buyer. There is absolutely no excuse for the holdering and marketing of this coin. >>
I also have withheld comment up till this point. But let me now let it fly. I am a collector NOT a dealer. Collectors put some amount of faith in a dealer, and a dealer knows (or should know) about what they are selling or just as important WHAT THEY ARE SAYING about a coin they are trying to sell. For example-I am a Pharmacist and I could really pull the wool over many unsuspecting, yet trusting, customers on a daily basis---WHY---BECAUSE THEY WANT TO TRUST ME. They come to me- the Pharmacist (or in this analogy-the coin dealer) because they assume I will point them in the right direction and not try to sell them the kitchen sink for their common cold just to turn a profit for myself.
There are some real jerks working in Pharmacy's out there and there are some real jerks selling coins also----AVOID BOTH. Not pointing a finger at anyone here because I don't know enough specifics, BUT !!!!!!!
We, as part of the coin collecting community, can't just sit back and say-Buyer Beware, or a fool and his money are soon parted, or any crap like that. THIS IS WRONG.......IT PUTS A SCAR ON OUR HOBBY, AND A SCAR ON SOME OF YOUR PROFESSIONS. When there is immoral or unethical crap that is dicovered in a Pharmacy or by a Pharmacist, ACTION IS TAKEN against the store or Pharmacist personally and professionally---WHY---TO PROTECT THE FUTURE OF THE PROFESSION... Well this has to start in numismatics also---------------!!!
Nuff said >>
Well, since you are using a pharmacutical (sp?) analogy then how about this...why do drug companies sometimes get sued for previously unknown post-use side effects? Because even the experts can never be 100% certain that a product is exactly what they initially believe it to be! There is risk in everything we do - but the key is to use best intentions - and based on Brandon's story, Anaconda, via NGC, has done that here.
<< <i>IMHO, everyone involved with this coin is at fault. The baker, NGC, the seller who sold it to Anaconda, and Anaconda for not seeing the forest thru the trees. I did not say anything about the original post because I like Brandon. But it was pretty obvious to me, and many others here, that the coin was obviously AT! I think all they saw were big $$$$ when that coin made it's way into an NGC holder, and not the obvious. >>
I have seen envelope toned coins (albeit less dramatic) tone in similar fashion. This was not at all obvious to most toning experts, based on Anaconda's pictures combined with the NGC holder.
<< <i>How has Anaconda shown they don't stand behind this coin? Just the opposite, he pulled it off the market! >>
No, he pulled it off ebay. Until this coin is cracked & dipped (thereby removing the AT & revealing its more likely MS63 grade), there is still potential for fraud in the future sale of this coin. >>
Doubtful Anaconda will be the one to do this - he will probably try to get his thousands of dollars back from the dealer he bought it from initially. Then the moral obligation will makes it's way back to gototoninghell's corner...
<< <i>It is sad to read that many here think this deal is OK because the dealer is a nice guy or because NGC slabbed the coin.
To me, it shows greed and it is not OK.
In the original thread, I was one of the early posters that thought it was AT and I think I was the first to say it was the work of ToneCoin2004, now GOTOTONING.
Despite several collectors saying it was plainly AT, the dealers rallied around and said it was natural no matter what.
I have to give TDN credit for being the first dealer to cast doubt on this coin and its selling price. >>
This, obviously, AT Peace Dollar worries me greatly and once again I am questioning myself as to why I collect coins.
I have been collecting Peace dollars for about ten years, and as soon as I viewed Brandon's picture, I was convinced that the coin was not "natural", but did not voice my opinion. I do not think there is a true Peace dollar collector out there who would have thought this coin to be original.
I personally would NEVER have bought this coin, but my worst fear of this coin which fooled a major TPG and other collectors and maybe dealers is that the perpetrator is very good at what he does, to have fooled people and NGC with a coin series that NEVER tones in such a glorious manner.
This means that GOTOTONING can and probably will, or already has, played with other more lucrative series as the Morgans, Trade, and Seated dollars, to name a few.
One more major worry for coin collecting. Where is the fun ??
<< <i>This, obviously, AT Peace Dollar worries me greatly and once again I am questioning myself as to why I collect coins.
I have been collecting Peace dollars for about ten years, and as soon as I viewed Brandon's picture, I was convinced that the coin was not "natural", but did not voice my opinion. I do not think there is a true Peace dollar collector out there who would have thought this coin to be original.
I personally would NEVER have bought this coin, but my worst fear of this coin which fooled a major TPG and other collectors and maybe dealers is that the perpetrator is very good at what he does, to have fooled people and NGC with a coin series that NEVER tones in such a glorious manner.
This means that GOTOTONING can and probably will, or already has, played with other more lucrative series as the Morgans, Trade, and Seated dollars, to name a few.
One more major worry for coin collecting. Where is the fun ?? >>
No worries mate....
If you truely know your series and have developed some expertise in that area... You then know what to look for, what to expect, what to purchase and what to avoid......
Collecting is still very much tons of fun........
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
I very much doubt there was ever a clearer legal case to be made against a doctor (Gototoning). >>
While I will be happy to bring this to the attention of NCA, I strongly disagree with the above statement. To my knowledge, as much as I despise what the Ebay seller appears to be doing to coins, there is nothing ILLEGAL about it, whatsoever. Such a case would probably never stand even a remote chance in court.
I probably never will be fooled by an AT Peace Dollar, but it would be far easier to fool almost anybody with similar toning on Morgans and Trade dollars.
Lots of people pretty much accept dipped Morgans, so I guess a beautiful, AT Morgan will also be accepted, since the doctors are becoming expert at their jobs.
Maybe in the future coins will pedigreed with "ORIGINAL" on the holder, which will add more value to the coin, and give the TPG companies yet another way to make money holdering coins.
I very much doubt there was ever a clearer legal case to be made against a doctor (Gototoning). >>
While I will be happy to bring this to the attention of NCA, I strongly disagree with the above statement. To my knowledge, as much as I despise what the Ebay seller appears to be doing to coins, there is nothing ILLEGAL about it, whatsoever. Such a case would probably never stand even a remote chance in court. >>
Agreed. And that is exactly why I have ridiculed the posse from the beginning! (I probably should have said," ...a clearer case of provable guilt", not," ...a clearer legal case."
"Wars are really ugly! They're dirty and they're cold. I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole." Mary
I very much doubt there was ever a clearer legal case to be made against a doctor (Gototoning). >>
While I will be happy to bring this to the attention of NCA, I strongly disagree with the above statement. To my knowledge, as much as I despise what the Ebay seller appears to be doing to coins, there is nothing ILLEGAL about it, whatsoever. Such a case would probably never stand even a remote chance in court. >>
Agreed. If they could take action against this doctor, then they could take action against people who dip coins. Each method is altering the original coin. Each owner is simply doing what he wishes to his own property.
Unfortunately coin doctors are becoming very good at what they are doing and tricking collectors and dealers into buying "mistake" coins.
<< <i>Whoever submitted this coin at the show did so with at least 9 other coins as it is a 009 serial number, spent at least 1000 in fees?--------------------------BigE >>
The other coins in this submission were Morgans. A few high dollar VAMS. Most graded 64-66. There was also a 1921-S that was given a *. I wonder if it was also toned?
This means that GOTOTONING can and probably will, or already has, played with other more lucrative series as the Morgans, Trade, and Seated dollars, to name a few.
An experienced trade or seated collector would never touch a coin like that - they simply do not tone that way.
Comments
<< <i>Maybe he does take out orders where "you can have it your own way" I don't know
I'm sure he would. While he doesn't outright say his coins are AT, he doesn't market them in a way expressing that they aren't.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
<< <i>Here is the link to the Anaconda 1923 toned $55 coin to a $12,500 coin!!
1923 $12,500 AT NGC >>
Huh? I thought the listing was pulled. Now it's back at a modestly lower price?
<< <i>I think it should be pointed out that a lot of the "Big Money" beginning to be thown at "monster" toned dollars (Morgans, not Peace) was from the recent Battle Creek Sales where there were some truly amazing colored Morgans also graded at NGC. And importantly, none these BC coins looked remotely like this one, they were taken from sealed Mint bags by NGC. The origin really is important--for example: if you buy a coin that was in the Amon Carter Collection, you get a coin you know got any pretty concentric album colors slowly and naturally from long term storage, NOT a week before it was sold on Ebay--
Not really a fair argument... peace dollars simply don't tone the same way. Let's forget about this coin in particular, but a toned peace dollar will NOT look like your typical toned morgan.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
PS: Wasn't there mention in the other thread about doing homework? Thanks Braddick!
That said, it's very sad to see a forum member get fed lies on a coin he/she buys. Hope everything goes well from here on out.
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
I thought the coin was a knock out and if I was a buyer of Peace Dollars I'd have been tempted, but if some dude on ebay is cranking these out and getting NGC to bless them then I fear for the future of the toned coin market.
<< <i>Huh? I thought the listing was pulled. Now it's back at a modestly lower price? >>
It says "Item has ended".
<< <i>Good sleuthing by Braddick -
I thought the coin was a knock out and if I was a buyer of Peace Dollars I'd have been tempted, but if some dude on ebay is cranking these out and getting NGC to bless them then I fear for the future of the toned coin market. >>
There could come a day that they just won't grade them. Didn't someone on here have a bunch of blue (and other colors) Jefferson Nickels that PCGS stopped grading?
I have had a few of his (ebay ID Tonecoin2003) coins in hand and remembered the "look" and this coin has it.
The toning has a Thick filmy painted on look and the infamous Powder blue. I was surprised to see it holdered.
Scott
Toned Coins for sale @ tonedcointrader.com
I disagree. I've held my tongue ever since seeing the coin at Long Beach. The fact of the matter is that one shouldn't be selling common date/condition Peace Dollars for $14k if one doesn't have the expertise to stand behind the coin [independent of the holder].
I like Adrian personally, but his pricing strategy tends to bury his customers at times.
<< <i>In my opinion, Anaconda has NO fault here
I disagree. I've held my tongue ever since seeing the coin at Long Beach. The fact of the matter is that one shouldn't be selling common date/condition Peace Dollars for $14k if one doesn't have the expertise to stand behind the coin [independent of the holder].
I like Adrian personally, but his pricing strategy tends to bury his customers at times. >>
How has Anaconda shown they don't stand behind this coin? Just the opposite, he pulled it off the market!
His pricing is an open market pricing...willing buyer and willing seller...plus a return priviledge...buyers that get buried in any area shouldn't invest unless they have a good knowledge of what they are buying and the associated risks.
With respect for your experience and contributions, Doug
Pat you are amazing!
Tbig
I wonder if anyone is buried right now due to not so "good knowledge".
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
<< <i>Maybe he does take out orders where "you can have it your own way" I don't know
Kinda looks like NGC does also.
<< <i>I love how so many people say it's AT now and didn't think so in the Anaconda pictures... >>
I thought AT the moment I saw it when it was posted here several days ago. Too bad the TPG's don't note the obvious AT on the holder if they are gonna slab this stuff. It so much reminds me of this one.
<< <i>
<< <i>In my opinion, Anaconda has NO fault here
I disagree. I've held my tongue ever since seeing the coin at Long Beach. The fact of the matter is that one shouldn't be selling common date/condition Peace Dollars for $14k if one doesn't have the expertise to stand behind the coin [independent of the holder].
I like Adrian personally, but his pricing strategy tends to bury his customers at times. >>
How has Anaconda shown they don't stand behind this coin? Just the opposite, he pulled it off the market!
His pricing is an open market pricing...willing buyer and willing seller...plus a return priviledge...buyers that get buried in any area shouldn't invest unless they have a good knowledge of what they are buying and the associated risks.
With respect for your experience and contributions, Doug >>
From a collector perspective, TDN is 100% absolutely correct. I am glad that some one of his stature weighed in on this.
My response to your comments is please don't play the spin game and blame the collector or investor - Dealers know what coins they are handling. They also know when someone is about to get buried in it. There were public false representations made about the origin of this coin. This had the potential to fool an unknowing buyer. There is absolutely no excuse for the holdering and marketing of this coin.
Random Collector
www.marksmedals.com
<< <i>IMHO, everyone involved with this coin is at fault. The baker, NGC, the seller who sold it to Anaconda, and Anaconda for not seeing the forest thru the trees. I did not say anything about the original post because I like Brandon. But it was pretty obvious to me, and many others here, that the coin was obviously AT! I think all they saw were big $$$$ when that coin made it's way into an NGC holder, and not the obvious. >>
Everyone has gotten fooled by an AT coin at one point or another,it's not right to blame Anaconda...it's in an NGC holder for crying out loud...
<< <i>it's in an NGC holder for crying out loud... >>
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
<< <i>From a collector perspective, TDN is 100% absolutely correct. I am glad that some one of his stature weighed in on this.
My response to your comments is please don't play the spin game and blame the collector or investor - Dealers know what coins they are handling. They also know when someone is about to get buried in it. There were public false representations made about the origin of this coin. This had the potential to fool an unknowing buyer. There is absolutely no excuse for the holdering and marketing of this coin. >>
I also have withheld comment up till this point. But let me now let it fly. I am a collector NOT a dealer. Collectors put some amount of faith in a dealer, and a dealer knows (or should know) about what they are selling or just as important WHAT THEY ARE SAYING about a coin they are trying to sell. For example-I am a Pharmacist and I could really pull the wool over many unsuspecting, yet trusting, customers on a daily basis---WHY---BECAUSE THEY WANT TO TRUST ME. They come to me- the Pharmacist (or in this analogy-the coin dealer) because they assume I will point them in the right direction and not try to sell them the kitchen sink for their common cold just to turn a profit for myself.
There are some real jerks working in Pharmacy's out there and there are some real jerks selling coins also----AVOID BOTH.
Not pointing a finger at anyone here because I don't know enough specifics, BUT !!!!!!!
We, as part of the coin collecting community, can't just sit back and say-Buyer Beware, or a fool and his money are soon parted, or any crap like that. THIS IS WRONG.......IT PUTS A SCAR ON OUR HOBBY, AND A SCAR ON SOME OF YOUR PROFESSIONS. When there is immoral or unethical crap that is dicovered in a Pharmacy or by a Pharmacist, ACTION IS TAKEN against the store or Pharmacist personally and professionally---WHY---TO PROTECT THE FUTURE OF THE PROFESSION... Well this has to start in numismatics also---------------!!!
Nuff said
<< <i>How has Anaconda shown they don't stand behind this coin? Just the opposite, he pulled it off the market! >>
No, he pulled it off ebay. Until this coin is cracked & dipped (thereby removing the AT & revealing its more likely MS63 grade), there is still potential for fraud in the future sale of this coin.
PCGS, ANACS, & NGC Certified Coins on My Website.
<< <i>Fraud: A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain. >>
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
To me, it shows greed and it is not OK.
In the original thread, I was one of the early posters that thought it was AT and I think I was the first to say it was the work of ToneCoin2004, now GOTOTONING.
Despite several collectors saying it was plainly AT, the dealers rallied around and said it was natural no matter what.
I have to give TDN credit for being the first dealer to cast doubt on this coin and its selling price.
<< <i>
<< <i>From a collector perspective, TDN is 100% absolutely correct. I am glad that some one of his stature weighed in on this.
My response to your comments is please don't play the spin game and blame the collector or investor - Dealers know what coins they are handling. They also know when someone is about to get buried in it. There were public false representations made about the origin of this coin. This had the potential to fool an unknowing buyer. There is absolutely no excuse for the holdering and marketing of this coin. >>
I also have withheld comment up till this point. But let me now let it fly. I am a collector NOT a dealer. Collectors put some amount of faith in a dealer, and a dealer knows (or should know) about what they are selling or just as important WHAT THEY ARE SAYING about a coin they are trying to sell. For example-I am a Pharmacist and I could really pull the wool over many unsuspecting, yet trusting, customers on a daily basis---WHY---BECAUSE THEY WANT TO TRUST ME. They come to me- the Pharmacist (or in this analogy-the coin dealer) because they assume I will point them in the right direction and not try to sell them the kitchen sink for their common cold just to turn a profit for myself.
There are some real jerks working in Pharmacy's out there and there are some real jerks selling coins also----AVOID BOTH.
Not pointing a finger at anyone here because I don't know enough specifics, BUT !!!!!!!
We, as part of the coin collecting community, can't just sit back and say-Buyer Beware, or a fool and his money are soon parted, or any crap like that. THIS IS WRONG.......IT PUTS A SCAR ON OUR HOBBY, AND A SCAR ON SOME OF YOUR PROFESSIONS. When there is immoral or unethical crap that is dicovered in a Pharmacy or by a Pharmacist, ACTION IS TAKEN against the store or Pharmacist personally and professionally---WHY---TO PROTECT THE FUTURE OF THE PROFESSION... Well this has to start in numismatics also---------------!!!
Nuff said >>
Well, since you are using a pharmacutical (sp?) analogy then how about this...why do drug companies sometimes get sued for previously unknown post-use side effects? Because even the experts can never be 100% certain that a product is exactly what they initially believe it to be! There is risk in everything we do - but the key is to use best intentions - and based on Brandon's story, Anaconda, via NGC, has done that here.
<< <i>IMHO, everyone involved with this coin is at fault. The baker, NGC, the seller who sold it to Anaconda, and Anaconda for not seeing the forest thru the trees. I did not say anything about the original post because I like Brandon. But it was pretty obvious to me, and many others here, that the coin was obviously AT! I think all they saw were big $$$$ when that coin made it's way into an NGC holder, and not the obvious. >>
I have seen envelope toned coins (albeit less dramatic) tone in similar fashion. This was not at all obvious to most toning experts, based on Anaconda's pictures combined with the NGC holder.
Doug
<< <i>
<< <i>How has Anaconda shown they don't stand behind this coin? Just the opposite, he pulled it off the market! >>
No, he pulled it off ebay. Until this coin is cracked & dipped (thereby removing the AT & revealing its more likely MS63 grade), there is still potential for fraud in the future sale of this coin. >>
Doubtful Anaconda will be the one to do this - he will probably try to get his thousands of dollars back from the dealer he bought it from initially. Then the moral obligation will makes it's way back to gototoninghell's corner...
<< <i>It is sad to read that many here think this deal is OK because the dealer is a nice guy or because NGC slabbed the coin.
To me, it shows greed and it is not OK.
In the original thread, I was one of the early posters that thought it was AT and I think I was the first to say it was the work of ToneCoin2004, now GOTOTONING.
Despite several collectors saying it was plainly AT, the dealers rallied around and said it was natural no matter what.
I have to give TDN credit for being the first dealer to cast doubt on this coin and its selling price. >>
How many places did you break your arm just now?
I have been collecting Peace dollars for about ten years, and as soon as I viewed Brandon's picture, I was convinced that the coin was not "natural", but did not voice my opinion. I do not think there is a true Peace dollar collector out there who would have thought this coin to be original.
I personally would NEVER have bought this coin, but my worst fear of this coin which fooled a major TPG and other collectors and maybe dealers is that the perpetrator is very good at what he does, to have fooled people and NGC with a coin series that NEVER tones in such a glorious manner.
This means that GOTOTONING can and probably will, or already has,
played with other more lucrative series as the Morgans, Trade, and Seated dollars, to name a few.
One more major worry for coin collecting. Where is the fun ??
<< <i>This, obviously, AT Peace Dollar worries me greatly and once again I am questioning myself as to why I collect coins.
I have been collecting Peace dollars for about ten years, and as soon as I viewed Brandon's picture, I was convinced that the coin was not "natural", but did not voice my opinion. I do not think there is a true Peace dollar collector out there who would have thought this coin to be original.
I personally would NEVER have bought this coin, but my worst fear of this coin which fooled a major TPG and other collectors and maybe dealers is that the perpetrator is very good at what he does, to have fooled people and NGC with a coin series that NEVER tones in such a glorious manner.
This means that GOTOTONING can and probably will, or already has,
played with other more lucrative series as the Morgans, Trade, and Seated dollars, to name a few.
One more major worry for coin collecting. Where is the fun ?? >>
No worries mate....
If you truely know your series and have developed some expertise in that area... You then know what to look for, what to expect, what to purchase and what to
avoid......
Collecting is still very much tons of fun........
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Where is your Coin Posse now??
Laura???? Mark???? Anyone?????
I very much doubt there was ever a clearer legal case to be made against a doctor (Gototoning).
All that big talk by the "posse", and still no corpse in the hangin' tree!
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>Where is your Coin Posse now??
Laura???? Mark???? Anyone?????
I very much doubt there was ever a clearer legal case to be made against a doctor (Gototoning). >>
While I will be happy to bring this to the attention of NCA, I strongly disagree with the above statement. To my knowledge, as much as I despise what the Ebay seller appears to be doing to coins, there is nothing ILLEGAL about it, whatsoever. Such a case would probably never stand even a remote chance in court.
I probably never will be fooled by an AT Peace Dollar, but it would be far easier to fool almost anybody with similar toning on Morgans and Trade dollars.
Lots of people pretty much accept dipped Morgans, so I guess a beautiful, AT Morgan will also be accepted, since the doctors are becoming expert at their jobs.
Maybe in the future coins will pedigreed with "ORIGINAL" on the holder, which will add more value to the coin, and give the TPG companies yet another way to make money holdering coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>Where is your Coin Posse now??
Laura???? Mark???? Anyone?????
I very much doubt there was ever a clearer legal case to be made against a doctor (Gototoning). >>
While I will be happy to bring this to the attention of NCA, I strongly disagree with the above statement. To my knowledge, as much as I despise what the Ebay seller appears to be doing to coins, there is nothing ILLEGAL about it, whatsoever. Such a case would probably never stand even a remote chance in court. >>
Agreed. And that is exactly why I have ridiculed the posse from the beginning! (I probably should have said," ...a clearer case of provable guilt", not," ...a clearer legal case."
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>
<< <i>Where is your Coin Posse now??
Laura???? Mark???? Anyone?????
I very much doubt there was ever a clearer legal case to be made against a doctor (Gototoning). >>
While I will be happy to bring this to the attention of NCA, I strongly disagree with the above statement. To my knowledge, as much as I despise what the Ebay seller appears to be doing to coins, there is nothing ILLEGAL about it, whatsoever. Such a case would probably never stand even a remote chance in court. >>
Agreed. If they could take action against this doctor, then they could take action against people who dip coins. Each method is altering the original coin. Each owner is simply doing what he wishes to his own property.
Unfortunately coin doctors are becoming very good at what they are doing and tricking collectors and dealers into buying "mistake" coins.
<< <i>Whoever submitted this coin at the show did so with at least 9 other coins as it is a 009 serial number, spent at least 1000 in fees?--------------------------BigE >>
The other coins in this submission were Morgans. A few high dollar VAMS. Most graded 64-66. There was also a 1921-S that was given a *. I wonder if it was also toned?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
An experienced trade or seated collector would never touch a coin like that - they simply do not tone that way.
ps - I'm a collector, not a dealer.