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My first really bad coin deal on eBay
Russellhome
Posts: 294
I've been disappointed in an item I've won on eBay before - but I never felt I actually got burned. I've been bidding on raw 2005 Bison DDO nickels when they come up for auction, and I've snagged a few fairly cheap. A few weeks ago, a seller claimed to have gotten 17 of 20 WJ Nickel sets with a Bison DDO and did the typical description and showed photos from Coin the World articles in his listing. He had a high feedback rating, so I bought up 6 of his 'buy-it-now' auctions at a decent price.
What I received did not have DDOs, so I contacted the seller about it. I told him that the photos of the 2 January Issues of Numismatic News included photos of my coins in the 5c DDO articles and that I knew the DDO when I saw one. I got a nice, meaningful reply... "They are the 'real deal' - I don't sell things that are not real". I sent him side-by-side photos showing a true DDO vs. the obvious mechanical doubling on the coins he sent me. Again, he insisted they were DDOs. I had a coin varieties pro examine the photos and confirm they were not DDOs, still - the seller refused to admit the mistake and would not do a refund. I tried to call him, as eBay recommends in a dispute - but he did not take the call and emailed me a nasty message that I was harassing him and I was 'a danger to him and his family'. Why? Because I insisted on a refund for a bad coin deal? For the first time in 9 years on eBay, I had to do a 'Item received is significantly not as described" complaint. Before it got to the 'file a claim' level, he finally agreed to do a refund -- but he wanted a 10% restocking fee. Because eBay makes you wait for 30 days after a listing ends before they will get directly involved, I caved in and took the 90% refund-- and the seller never admitted he made a mistake.
He got his coins back last Friday. Now I see they are listed again - and at $10 more per nickel set than what I paid. It is against eBay policy to warn buyers - but I hate to see this seller get away with it. Given my experience with this guy, I'd have thought his feedback rating would be horrible -- but it is 99% positive, over 1000 for a total score, and no negative feedback in the past year. He burned me and is now burning others -- not what I would have expected from this seller's rating. The whole thing was a very sour experience.
What I received did not have DDOs, so I contacted the seller about it. I told him that the photos of the 2 January Issues of Numismatic News included photos of my coins in the 5c DDO articles and that I knew the DDO when I saw one. I got a nice, meaningful reply... "They are the 'real deal' - I don't sell things that are not real". I sent him side-by-side photos showing a true DDO vs. the obvious mechanical doubling on the coins he sent me. Again, he insisted they were DDOs. I had a coin varieties pro examine the photos and confirm they were not DDOs, still - the seller refused to admit the mistake and would not do a refund. I tried to call him, as eBay recommends in a dispute - but he did not take the call and emailed me a nasty message that I was harassing him and I was 'a danger to him and his family'. Why? Because I insisted on a refund for a bad coin deal? For the first time in 9 years on eBay, I had to do a 'Item received is significantly not as described" complaint. Before it got to the 'file a claim' level, he finally agreed to do a refund -- but he wanted a 10% restocking fee. Because eBay makes you wait for 30 days after a listing ends before they will get directly involved, I caved in and took the 90% refund-- and the seller never admitted he made a mistake.
He got his coins back last Friday. Now I see they are listed again - and at $10 more per nickel set than what I paid. It is against eBay policy to warn buyers - but I hate to see this seller get away with it. Given my experience with this guy, I'd have thought his feedback rating would be horrible -- but it is 99% positive, over 1000 for a total score, and no negative feedback in the past year. He burned me and is now burning others -- not what I would have expected from this seller's rating. The whole thing was a very sour experience.
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KR
KR
0
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So why didn't you leave him a neg?
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
I have purchased items and never received the item, didn't get a refund, and the seller was NARUed. That's a little worse.
My Auctions
My suggestion is to buy certified coins when dealing with varieities. Especially on new and minor varieites. Not too many people know about this new variety and not all grading services attribute them yet. Although, there are a few reputable services that do recognize them so it would be best to just buy them slabbed.
There are alot of missinformed sellers out there and even though they are somewhat honest it is hard for them to be told by a buyer their coin is not an actual error. Instead of them giving you a refund they might take it personal since they are the seller and they are suppose to know more about the coin than the buyer.
You may try contacting Ebay and letting them know it is missrepresented and they might do something if you keep contacting them. Or, if another member also reports it it is more likely that they will look into it.
<< <i>So why didn't you leave him a neg? >>
I have a 9 year perfect record on eBay and I don't want retaliation negative feedback. He deserves it - But in my opinion - it is better to preserve my perfect score than to tarnish the rating of the seller. That is the one thing about the eBay rating system that does not work well -- when a problem arises, usually both sides end up with a negative added to their feedback. I have not left him feedback -- and will be happy to do so if he hits me with a negative. The fact that I had to file a claim to get the seller to act SHOULD BE added to his feedback by eBay. But that is not something that they do under the current system.
KR
<< <i>He had a high feedback rating, so I bought up 6 of his 'buy-it-now' auctions at a decent price.
but I hate to see this seller get away with it. Given my experience with this guy, I'd have thought his feedback rating would be horrible -- but it is 99% positive, over 1000 for a total score, and no negative feedback in the past year. He burned me and is now burning others -- not what I would have expected from this seller's rating. >>
<< <i>So why didn't you leave him a neg? >>
<< <i>I have a 9 year perfect record on eBay and I don't want retaliation negative feedback. He deserves it - But in my opinion - it is better to preserve my perfect score than to tarnish the rating of the seller. >>
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
<< <i>how about the side by side photos?? >>
So as not to complicate the original post, I left out that ONE of the nickel sets was to contain both the OIV DDO and the Bison DDO. I did side-by-sides of the most obvious area of doubling for each type.
What the seller claimed as a 2005 P OIV DDO Nickel
The same area of a 2005 P OIV DDO Nickel that I own
What the seller claimed as a 2005 P Bison DDO Nickel
The same area of a 2005 P Bison DDO Nickel that I own
The photos are not the greatest -- but it is clear that what I received were not the DDDs "shown in Coin World" -- as the seller claimed.
About the comment of buying certified coins... Yes - to be sure you are going to get what you expect your are buying -- you are correct. Slabbed is the only way to go. But you will pay a premium for that. My goal is to get raw coins at bargain prices -- slabb the good ones-- and perhaps sell some to pay for the rest. I'm only interested in the ANACS slabbed 2005 5c DDOs if the price is right -- and usually, it is too high for my goals. These DDOs have yet to take off, and although I think they are a bargain right now -- I could be wrong and could end up with a bunch of DDO nickels worth less than I paid. Time will tell.
KR
<< <i>
<< <i>He had a high feedback rating, so I bought up 6 of his 'buy-it-now' auctions at a decent price.
but I hate to see this seller get away with it. Given my experience with this guy, I'd have thought his feedback rating would be horrible -- but it is 99% positive, over 1000 for a total score, and no negative feedback in the past year. He burned me and is now burning others -- not what I would have expected from this seller's rating. >>
<< <i>So why didn't you leave him a neg? >>
<< <i>I have a 9 year perfect record on eBay and I don't want retaliation negative feedback. He deserves it - But in my opinion - it is better to preserve my perfect score than to tarnish the rating of the seller. >>
Note that I said it was better for me -- but pehaps not for you and not for eBay as a whole. It would be better for other buyers if I exposed him for - at least - his resistance to do a refund if you are not happy. I was firm, but professional with my emails to this seller -- and his replies were meaningless and mind-boggling, then rude, and then threatening. At the point I told him I'd have to file a claim with eBay - he said something like "if I want any chance of getting my money back, I'd better not do it" -- yet -- he still offered no refund and I had to do it. No telling what he would put in my feedback -- but it would not be the truth and I didn't want to find out. In a few weeks, the listing will be gone and all that will remain is the negative feedback between 2 sellers that have a high feedback rating. So who are potential buyers to believe? Given the choice - I'd rather have the clean record.
KR
I am also having a problem,But with a non paying bidder 2 weeks after he won he said he found the same coins for $8.00 each and said I should understand? he also has not replied to the ebay non paying policy , he also has another seller he did it to and he is going thru the same thingas I ,he has a low feedback(i thought everyone needs a chance)but is still bidding and buying on ebay,in the meantime I cannot relist it ? and waiting for my fees from ebay . oh and he did win 2 other items and paid for them ,then said he did not recive it but delivry confirmation shows it was delivered?
Question is ...he has 4 non paying pending strikes ,yet he is still bidding and buying ? why will ebay allow this?
He won over $70.00 from me and now he whats me to forget about it?I WANT HIM TO REPLY TO GET THIS OVER WITH AND I will agree we both agreed not to go thru with the deal ,only so I can get me listing fees back BUT he will not reply and still bids and wins?
watch out for magiccoinsmagic
the_northern_trading_company
ace@airadv.net
I saw a suggestion about buying only slabbed die varieties - well, that won't work most of the time because a large number of die varieties either aren't recognized by the slabbing companies (because of inane political agendas) or are too minor to be worth the slabbing fees in anything but top-notch condition. A better suggestion - how about giving up on trying to find stuff that 90% of the public has no clue about on a sight-unseen online gambling site (eBay) and start buying directly from people who have a clue and a reputation to uphold?
FAR - VERY FAR more than not, most of the stuff selling on eBay for ridiculous money is common garbage that neither the seller nor buyers (evident from positive feedback left for an obvious rape job) know what the heck they are doing. Buy ONLY die varieties for which the seller has provided ORIGINAL images of the exact coin being sold that are good enough to ascertain what the seller has. Most of them find something "close" and steal the images from reputable sources, and use those copyrighted images to fence their garbage.
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<< <i>You can snipe the feedback just like you can snipe an auction. Wait until a minute before the feedback window ends and smoke him. >>
I've wondered if there was such a window but never looked in to it. What is the feedback window and, are you sure the guy wouldn't be able to return the negative even if the time frame expired, because he received one?
Also, Russellhome, some members might be interested in the guy's ebay name so he can be blocked. I didn't notice if you already posted it.
<< <i>He deserves it - But in my opinion - it is better to preserve my perfect score than to tarnish the rating of the seller. >>
This is selfish and gutless, and is the primary reason the eBay feedback system is useless. If we were talking about some garden variety screwup from the seller or an honest mistake, that would be one thing. Those you let slide. But, this seller is a fraud, and now somebody else is going to get screwed.
<< <i><< You can snipe the feedback just like you can snipe an auction. Wait until a minute before the feedback window ends and smoke him. >>
I've wondered if there was such a window but never looked in to it. >>
There isn't. The eBay time frame is "approximately" 90 days. It rarely, if ever, actually hits exactly 90 days.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>You can snipe the feedback just like you can snipe an auction. Wait until a minute before the feedback window ends and smoke him. >>
I've wondered if there was such a window but never looked in to it. What is the feedback window and, are you sure the guy wouldn't be able to return the negative even if the time frame expired, because he received one?
Also, Russellhome, some members might be interested in the guy's ebay name so he can be blocked. I didn't notice if you already posted it. >>
Under Feedback, Single Transaction, with the auction number you can post feedback many, many months after the auction close.
I have gotten undeserved negs.
I simply handle it in the "comment" such as............. "A non-pay bidder and ...I...get a negative....sheesh!"
That says quite a lot to whomever I consider worth selling to in the first place.
Russell mentions having another variety expert examining comparison photos from a coin he won from the auction. Requesting my assistance, I informed Russell that from the photos the particular coin was not a DDO. Since reporting these DDO's in two separate issues of Numismatic News many auctions (as one would expect) have popped up on eBay. To try and help collectors/potential bidders I have set-up Web pages illustrating photos of the doubling along with any die markers for attributing that particular DDO. Additionally, VarietyNickels.com home page also provides links to my Web pages if any desire to know which DDO is genuine. Also, the CONECA Home Page provides information with links to some of my Web pages as well as links to Ken Potter who also reported these varieties in Coin World. This is in the interest to try and prevent situations like this from happening again.
Another twist to this story… I have bought a few 2005 P Bison DDOs on eBay and they were the true DDO "Type I" nickel (CDDO-001). One of the sellers I’ve bought from told me how he had sold another 2005 P Bison DDO to someone else, and that buyer was angry and upset when they received their coin - convinced that they had not received a DDO nickel. In fact, they had -- but the buyer was unaware that the DDO features enlarged in the photos of CW and NN were not visible with the naked eye - tough to spot with a loop, and pretty much require 20x or more magnification to see clearly. The seller gladly offered a full refund and when he received the coin back, he found he had not made a mistake -- the coin WAS the 2005 P Bison Type I DDO. The buyer just didn’t know any better.
This is true for many (if not most) die varieties - serious magnification required. But people not familiar with this part of the hobby see the NN and CW articles - and expect to see doubling on these nickels similar to a 1955 or 1995 DDO Lincoln Cent. It would be nice to see an article written about variety collecting in general -- to help educate potential variety collectors so that they know what to expect.
I just thought it was funny that a seller with a true DDO would have the exact same problem as me (a dissatisfied customer) - but I having not received the real thing – and in his case, he did sell the real thing.
KR
<< <i>
<< <i>So why didn't you leave him a neg? >>
I have a 9 year perfect record on eBay and I don't want retaliation negative feedback. He deserves it - But in my opinion - it is better to preserve my perfect score than to tarnish the rating of the seller. That is the one thing about the eBay rating system that does not work well -- when a problem arises, usually both sides end up with a negative added to their feedback. I have not left him feedback -- and will be happy to do so if he hits me with a negative. The fact that I had to file a claim to get the seller to act SHOULD BE added to his feedback by eBay. But that is not something that they do under the current system. >>
So, instead of blasting his sorry butt with a neg specifically about him selling Normal nickels as DDO's....you do nothing and other people will likely get screwed on the very coins you returned and possibly others.
makes sense.
Andy
just call this a learning experience
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
KR
Also, I think you're giving your 100% feedback way too much importance. Most eBayers understand that retaliatory negative feedback is part and parcel of the process, and won't avoid sellers because their feedback is "only" 99.8% positive. Frankly, the ones who do care probably aren't people you want bidding on your auctions in the first place.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Here is my feedback, and as you can see, I put the publics right to know above any retalitory neg.
In my auctions I offer a 14 day "No Questions Asked" return policy where I not only offer to make a full refund but also offer to pay the postage both ways to make it an absolute no cost to the bidder if he/she is not completely satisfied with the Item. To this day, nobody has ever taken me up on my guarantee. This guarantee has and always will negate any retalitory neg that comes my way.
Jim
There are too many doofuses on Ebay who neg. A 99% feedback is a badge of honor.
<< <i>Just one question, Russellhome: would you have purchased those coins from that seller if he had already received a negative feedback for selling misattributed DDOs and fighting over a refund? >>
Maybe, maybe not. Given what I know about this seller, I still probably would have. The price was right and like I mentioned above, not everyone knows these DDOs and may claim they did not receive one when in fact they did. The feedback about the difficult refund could easily have been countered by a reply "LIAR - I OFFERED YOU A REFUND AND YOU TOOK IT". And to make matters worse - two people who won DDO sets from this seller before me left him positive feedback. So in the end, leaving this guy bad feedback for this item would make me look like the bad guy - not him.
When the sets I received did not contain DDOs, I contacted 4 other eBayers who'd won the same auction item from the same seller earlier. I did not realize this was against eBay policy at the time -- but warning buyers about a seller is not allowed. Two of the people responded (the ones who left positive feedback for the seller). One of them was so gun-shy about negative feedback that he left the seller positive feedback even though he knew what he received did not contain DDOs. He did not even attempt a refund -- just cut his losses. The 2nd buy had already popped the nickels out of the sets and was selling them on eBay as DDOs. I got the feeling that he did not know any better and he canceled his 2 DDO auctions and told me he was going to have them authenticated.
If eBay had a feedback system that worked - I'd gladly participate. I can think of lots of ways to improve it. They could split the rating into a Buying and Selling score. Instead of a 3 point system (pos/neutral/neg), they could go with a 10 point system that gives one the room to express appropriate degrees of satisfaction/dissatisfaction. They could add an optional "Long Form" that asks 3 ten point questions about the transaction: For buyers: 1) Satisfied with S/H, packaging, and timeliness 2) Item was accuratly described 3) Satisfaction with Customer Service -- For Sellers 1) Prompt payment 2) Communication 3) Overall satisfaction with the transaction. They could make the text part of the feedback optional. They could allow one feedback per transaction (not per item of the transaction) to speed things up. They could mandate feedback or provide incentives for doing feedback. And finally, they could drop the total positive/neutral/negative counts and just let your buyer/seller scores stand as your record. A system like this would yield a much more meaningful feedback rating.
<< <i>Also, I think you're giving your 100% feedback way too much importance. Most eBayers understand that retaliatory negative feedback is part and parcel of the process, and won't avoid sellers because their feedback is "only" 99.8% positive. Frankly, the ones who do care probably aren't people you want bidding on your auctions in the first place.
>>
You are right. 100% feedback does not mean much more than 99.8%. But from what I've seen, those who dish out a lot of negative feedback end up with numbers more like 95% - 97% with a lot if interesting crud to read about in their feedback. In most cases, you don't know what to believe. You also find that most negative feedback, if it exists, is grouped early in the history of a long time eBay member. Is this because they've become a better person? More likely, they learned that leaving negative feedback is usually equally damaging to both sides and stopped doing it.
Meaningful or not, my 100% positive feedback rating is deserved. I charge fair s/h. I ship items ASAP. I've replaced uninsured items damaged during shipping. I've done full refunds to picky buyers who expect PR70 coins in every US MINT proof set, I've been polite to buyers who wonder why they have not received their package 3 days after they pay. I've even forgiven a few new users who won an item and then immediately decided they made a mistake.
I will get negative feedback sometime and most likely it will not be deserved. I just see no point in inviting negative feedback in a system where dishing it out hurts both parties equally. If I don't like a transaction, I don't do feedback. As a seller, I think this makes more sense than trying to nailing someone every time I'm not happy with something. Remember - I did get 90% of my money back -- and this seller may truly believe that I was the one trying to scam him. Would I buy from him again -- NO. But read his feedback -- others have been very satisfied -- a lot of others. I just do not so see that negative feedback accomplishes anything.
KR
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
That did not sound right , what i mean is there`s two negative`s . what you do is wait about two weeks and see if he trys to get his negative removed . if not , then you respond back to his neg. it works out that you are responding to his remarks he left of you.
I went through the same thing with a person that sold me something that wasn`t what was stated and we went though the negative`s .
I got three or four e-mails from people warning me that he ripped them off and he will contact square trade and open a case on me .
They said if i dont respond to square trade they will remove the negative feedback i left him.Thats how he was getting away with ripping them off because square trade charges twenty dollars per case . So the people did not want to pay square trade twenty dollars for something they paid maybe ten dollars for.
UNTIL I CAME ALONG twenty dollars for nothing . because i would not pay for return shipping square trade closed the case .
Now i have the wrong parts and out twenty bucks . Around two months later ebay kicked him off there site . So he`s gone and iam stuck with the negative feedback. boy! They know all the tricks.
GOODLUCK
<< <i>If you have two ebay IDs - one for buying and one for selling - you need never worry about leaving negs for bad sellers. If they neg your buying ID, so what? >>
I thought you were limited to one eBay ID per mailing address. I'm pretty sure that was the case many years ago -- when people would just get a new ID every time their rating took a turn for the worse. Things may have changed. That is a good idea -- I'll look into it.
KR
Dr J
My omnicoin collection (or how my coin photography has progressed)
KR