Cu action alert for California

a039 · January 24, 2006 12:36PM

TO: MEMBERS and FRIENDS OF THE CALIFORNIA COIN AND BULLION MERCHANTS
FROM: BARRY STUPPLER, CCBMA PRESIDENT
SUBJECT: AB 1178 (Yee) - OPPOSE, See next post for all info...

GaCoinGuy · January 24, 2006 4:52PM

coppercoins · January 24, 2006 4:59PM

<< <i>

>>

me too...

relayer · January 24, 2006 5:30PM

I think he has a stuttering problem.

What he is trying to say is...

Dear Fellow Collector and Freedom Lover!

The State of California has a new law pending before the Assembly that is very bad for collectibles dealers. It is very anti-business and it is supported by pawn brokers. If passed it will chase dealers out of our state and dramatically affect coin shows. Please read the action alert below and contact your Assembly Representative as soon as possible and let them know your opposition to this bill and the negative effect it will have on the collectibles business in your state.

Thanks,

David Hall
President
Collectors Universe

ACTION ALERT

TO: MEMBERS and FRIENDS OF THE CALIFORNIA COIN AND BULLION MERCHANTS
FROM: BARRY STUPPLER, CCBMA PRESIDENT
SUBJECT: AB 1178 (Yee) - OPPOSE

As a member of the California Coin and Bullion Merchants Association (CCBMA), your action is urgently needed to express strong opposition to Assembly Bill 1178 by San Francisco Assemblyman Leland Yee. This bill may be considered for approval by the State Assembly as soon as Thursday January 26. AB 1178 would require new and incredibly burdensome regulations and fees on all CCBMA members in California in order to implement a $2.5 million Electronic Data Reporting System to track stolen property. CCBMA is opposed to this measure for the following reasons:

Although CCBMA supports electronic reporting to help law enforcement track stolen goods, AB 1178 has so many bad unintended consequences that it will only bog down real crime prevention efforts with worthless data and make law-abiding California citizens feel like criminals

The bill exempts swap meets, flea markets and many other venues where stolen merchandise is often fenced while burdening legitimate, law-abiding brick and mortar businesses

There is no minimum transaction amount, so a dealer would be required to report the purchase of insignificant items such as a $5 sterling silver spoon or a broken watch

Although coin dealers are presently exempt from the second hand dealer law, AB 1178 would require them to become licensed and pay hundreds of dollars in fees if they would engage in a single non-exempt transaction

AB 1178 is anti-business and anti-consumer. It will impede the growth of small business in California and will force customers to be fingerprinted and treated suspiciously. It is an unnecessary intrusion into the workings of legitimate small businesses that collect and pay millions of dollars in state taxes

AB 1178 opposition comes from many other businesses and advocates including:
Active Auctioneer Association American Electronics Association

Antiques by the Bay AuctionDrop

California Chamber of Commerce California State Auctioneers Assoc.

eBay, Inc. Home Consignment Center

Internet Alliance Internet Commerce Coalition

Soldit NetChoice Coalition

QuickDrop TechNet

Professional Numismatist Guild San Jose/Silicon Valley Chamber of Commerce

Industry Council for Tangible Assets American Numismatic Association

AB1176 is highly likely to be voted on by the State Assembly on Thursday January 26. PLEASE contact your assembly member today and voice your opposition. You can find your assembly member online at http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/yourleg.html

Thank you,

Barry Stuppler
President Calif. Coin & Bullion Association
5855 Topanga Canyon Blvd. #330
Woodland Hills, CA 91367
818-592-2800

a039 · January 24, 2006 11:41PM

Sorry I suffer from TSTSS, Thin skin, thick skull syndrome!

LanLord · January 24, 2006 11:51PM

<I was hoping to get people to DO something about it instead of making snide remarks.>

Unfortunately no one could understand what you were talking about, if Relayer hadn't posted, I would simply have closed this post and moved on. You need to understand that not everyone on the internet knows what you read. Share information not a few difficult to interpret letters.

coppercoins · January 25, 2006 12:31AM

I highly doubt my local legislature would give a rat's derrier what's happening in California...likewise for many of the other people who post here because they don't live in California either.

If my question icon bothered you, perhaps you should reconsider your post encryption. I don't think anyone who has not had previous encounters with the subject of your post could have reasonably been expected to have a clue what you were trying to say.

Coxe · January 25, 2006 12:55AM

This is very disturbing to me personally. I am retired and sell coins to net only a few thousand a year, just to cover expenses and get cherrypicked VAMs into other collectors' hands at reasonable markups. I buy nearly all my inventory from large public auctions. At a show, I might cherry a coin at a dealer's table, walk it over to NGC's table for a $10 attribution retagging, and flip it the next day. The 30 day hold rule would mean I couldn't do this legally in the state of California anymore as a licensed coin dealer. As for records, I have no problem, being meticulous in recording even mundane details of transactions.

The WE BUY COINS signs at Long Beach might become a thing of the past. Some dealers might initially boycott but would return because of the market here, just as they did when the state began enforcing the nexus rule for sales tax.

As for this being only a California issue, that is a myopic view. If any important leg of the market is injured, the entire beast is impacted. If I understand the rules correctly, a consignment to Teletrade, Bowers & Merena, Goldbergs, ... would be subject to a hold period and excessive reporting before it could be offered for sale. A big part of the law involves the DoJ too. As California goes, so goes the nation then in time.

keets · January 25, 2006 1:04AM

ah, Coxe, so what you're saying is that evryone should have cared a bit more about the tax issue that took place in Ohio last year??? i guess it's hard not to agree. the "slippery slope" theory would tend to be pertinent, since local Legislators always seem to get their ideas from National occurences. those who don't care about the far-off happenings will soon be crying out for help when the chickens come home to roost.

bad coppercoins, you need to be more cognizant about the things that will ultimately affect you when the test trial period is over and the Legislators in other states say "Hey, I have an idea that might put more money in the state's pocket"----read: benefit us lawmakers somehow. this California thing can't be good for any of us.

coppercoins · January 25, 2006 1:45AM

<< <i>bad coppercoins, you need to be more cognizant about the things that will ultimately affect you when the test trial period is over and the Legislators in other states say "Hey, I have an idea that might put more money in the state's pocket"----read: benefit us lawmakers somehow. this California thing can't be good for any of us. >>

No...you don't understand what I posted...I never said that I didn't care because it was in California...I said MY legislators wouldn't care because it's in California, and they are the only ones who would even look at the envelope of a letter I would send. Since I don't vote in California, the legislators there wouldn't give a rat's derrier what I think. Being non-Californian, for once anyway, is a bad thing if you DO care about this, because you have no voice at all. THAT's what I was saying.

I would venture to say that fewer than 25% of the people who post here are from California...the remaining 75% can only sit and watch what happens, myself included. Do you really think I would sit by idly and not care that the most populace state in the country is screwing the coin industry? I thought you knew me a little better than that.

edited to end Keets' bold tag in my quote...somebody's gotta do it.

Cladiator · January 25, 2006 1:50AM

So am I to believe that I will be required to be fingerprinted at a local coin shop when I go in to buy a circulated common date Peace Dollar if this passes?

topstuf · January 25, 2006 2:05AM

I....wish..... the salient points of the new law had been included in the alert that I received.

According to the bill, the following are EXEMPT.... (as I read it)
.................................................................................................................................................
21627.2
(c) Coins, monetized bullion, or commercial grade ingots of gold, silver, or other precious metals. "Commercial grade ingots" means 0.99 fine ingots of gold, silver, or platinum, or 0.925 fine sterling silver art bars and medallions, if the ingots, art bars, and medallions are marked by the refiner or fabricator as to their assay fineness.
.................................................................................................................................................

As a former pawnbroker AND coin dealer, I can cite many examples of fly-by-nighters ripping off stuff. One guy was finally closed down by the cops for stolen property and relocated his WIFE just down the street from my shop. Although ordered by the court to remain AWAY from his wife's shop, he spent all day there. Which came to an abrupt end when a couple wandered in to my shop and asked if it was "normal" for a dealer to take their stuff and drive to another city to sell it before paying them.

Another "Second hand dealer" who complied with the law also advertised in the yellow pages as a "Pawnbroker" which is already against the law. It is a crime to "agree" to repurchase an item unless you are licensed as a ...pawnbroker....(which license has strict financial and background requirements) yet it is still common practice for shady dealers to agree to hold something and "sell it back" at a preagreed price. However, they may KEEP the stuff once the customer leaves. That is just WRONG as when folks want a LOAN, they want their stuff BACK.

We loaned and we purchased. If it was a LOAN....they got it back.....per CONTRACT!

I would still like to see the negative points illuminated so I could make up my mind on this bill.

keets · January 25, 2006 2:20AM

So am I to believe that I will be required to be fingerprinted at a local coin shop when I go in to buy a circulated common date Peace Dollar if this passes?

i would think not. when they passed the tax revocation here in Ohio the big worry was that prices would go up because the tax would be added. though it's hard to tell for certain if a dealer is really charging extra, i assume they aren't and there has been no noticeable difference for me.

the worst consequence as i see it is that the law exists and so consequences are possible.

oh yeah, apologoies for the misunderstanding, Chuck.

Fletcher · January 25, 2006 2:27AM

Hmmmm ... states regulating the exchange of federal currency in interstate commerce. I don't think that it will stick. Congress likes to steer the boat.

FatMan · January 25, 2006 3:56AM

My suggestion would be for all the coin dealers to either stop selling $5 sterling silver spoons or move. If topstuffs except is accurate I don't see what the big deal is for coin/bullion dealers.

topstuf · January 25, 2006 9:56AM

That HAS been an exception to the laws for a long time. It appears to continue through the new bill. We did not have to report or "hold" ....ANY....coins. Buy it and sell it 30 seconds later if you want.

That's why I would like to see the "restrictive" nuances of the new law. As pawnbrokers we were constantly trying to get the "coin shops" to report jewelry buys. Some did, some didn't. But it "tarred" the pawnbrokers anyway. People say they "pawn" anything they sell. Pawn is NOT selling. It is LENDING.

We had many licensed coin shops that reported buys on jewelry and complied with the 30 day hold. It made it cleaner when everyone worked to stop thefts.

Coxe · January 25, 2006 10:28AM

From AB-1178

"1)Expands the definition of "secondhand dealer" to include
auctioneers that take possession of the tangible personal
property and coin dealers that trade in tangible personal
property."

NOTE: COIN DEALERS are mentioned specifically.

"5)Subjects any person engaging in the business of a secondhand
dealer or pawnbroker, as defined, to the following fees:

a) A fee of $295 for processing a license application;

b) A fee of $50 for the purpose of licensing enforcement
that may be assessed by the local licensing authority
(i.e., local law enforcement);

c) An unspecified fee sufficient to cover the cost of
conducting a criminal offender record information
background check on an applicant for a secondhand dealer or
pawnbroker license (currently this costs DOJ $32); and,

d) A fee of $175 for the biennial renewal of a license to
be paid to DOJ.

6)Provides that the fees specified in 5), above, shall not
increase at a rate greater than the legislatively approved
annual cost-of-living adjustment for DOJ's budget.

7)Creates the Electronic Data Reporting System Fund and provides
that license application processing fees and license renewal
fees shall be deposited in this account and used for the sole
purpose of implementing and maintaining the electronic data
reporting system provided for in this bill.

8)Adds tangible personal property that bears an identification
number, or that bears evidence of having had an identification
number, to the definition of "tangible personal property.""

"11)Requires secondhand dealers and pawnbrokers to report any
tangible personal property they acquire in the U.S. by
purchase or trade, or that they accept for sale on consignment
or for auction, to local law enforcement until the Attorney
General (AG) has certified that the electronic data reporting
system is operational.

12)Requires all secondhand dealers and pawnbrokers to
electronically report every transaction involving the
acquisition of tangible personal property to DOJ via the
electronic data reporting system within 12 months from the
date the AG certifies that the electronic data reporting
system is operational (not to be later than January 1, 2010)."

"17)Provides that a person who advertises as a secondhand dealer
or pawnbroker shall be subject to the licensing and reporting
requirements of this bill and shall be guilty of a misdemeanor
if he or she so advertises without holding a valid license.

18)Provides that a district attorney or city attorney may bring
a civil action for any violation of provisions regulating
secondhand dealers, coin dealers, business machine dealers,
and pawnbrokers and that any civil penalties or fines
collected by a court shall be deposited with the county
treasurer in the county in which the court is situated."

From the Bill's comments:

"Furthermore, this bill extends the existing licensure
requirement to coin dealers and business machine dealers who
deal in "tangible personal property" and auctioneers who "take
possession of" tangible personal property. This extension not
only imposes fees upon business owners who currently are not
required to be licensed, but also imposes requirements upon
businesses that trade in tangible personal property. This
includes a requirement to hold tangible personal property for 30
days before selling, trading, or otherwise dispensing of it."

Cu action alert for California

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